TESTING DONE new weapon traits (sharpened is behind) DOC UPDATED

Dymence · July 2017

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

In a Raid Setup, Sharpened will still be better together with Thief compared to Lover + Precise simply because your Tanks can give you Penetration via Alkosh and Crusher but they can't give you extra Crit.

Edit: @Dymence

Dymence wrote: »

And here I'm just wondering what a munstor helm and munder stone is.

xDDD

It's different for stamina though, which is probably better off running infused/precise with shadow mundus, from what I can tell seeing various stam posts on forums.

But sharpened thief will certainly still be the meta for magicka PVE. Infused will likely take over for PVP.

Narvuntien · July 2017

Infused with oblivion is clearly BiS
With the spell damage enchant they are within the standard deviation so that one isn't relevent.
With the shock enchant infused is only slightly better than sharpened, only just significant.

ziaodix · July 2017

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

In a Raid Setup, Sharpened will still be better together with Thief compared to Lover + Precise simply because your Tanks can give you Penetration via Alkosh and Crusher but they can't give you extra Crit.

This assumes your tank can apply these in all scenarios (which isn't always the case). So in certain instances you might be better off with a different setup. Example: Back room vMoL, Up Top Boss 2 in vHoF, Up Top Boss 2 in HRC.

Oompuh · July 2017

ziaodix wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

In a Raid Setup, Sharpened will still be better together with Thief compared to Lover + Precise simply because your Tanks can give you Penetration via Alkosh and Crusher but they can't give you extra Crit.

This assumes your tank can apply these in all scenarios (which isn't always the case). So in certain instances you might be better off with a different setup. Example: Back room vMoL, Up Top Boss 2 in vHoF, Up Top Boss 2 in HRC.

Why would 3k pen make or break back room of maw? Aren't they like 1 shot?

As for your other examples, pre morrowind, alkosh on both tanks was standard so I don't see why splitting the group would be any issue.

Tan9oSuccka · July 2017

theflawlessteabagger wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Or you could link the doc and let the data talk.

Or you could shut your ungrateful pie hole and thank the dude for his hard work, just so u can keep pugging normal dungeons with prosperous gear

I expected more from you, Flawlessteabagger....

Oh wait. No, I didn't.

Lord_Eomer · July 2017

Buff sharpen will result again sharpen overperforming. To keep gap minimun, buff sharpen to 3000 - 3500 pentration.

6% -7 % damage increase in PVE

Vipstaakki · July 2017

Sharpened is in a good place now. It is no longer BiS and it should stay that way.

Valen_Byte · July 2017

Well done OP. Thanks for putting in the time and effort!!

idk · July 2017

Oompuh wrote: »

ziaodix wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

In a Raid Setup, Sharpened will still be better together with Thief compared to Lover + Precise simply because your Tanks can give you Penetration via Alkosh and Crusher but they can't give you extra Crit.

This assumes your tank can apply these in all scenarios (which isn't always the case). So in certain instances you might be better off with a different setup. Example: Back room vMoL, Up Top Boss 2 in vHoF, Up Top Boss 2 in HRC.

Why would 3k pen make or break back room of maw? Aren't they like 1 shot?

As for your other examples, pre morrowind, alkosh on both tanks was standard so I don't see why splitting the group would be any issue.

I agree 3k pen would not be a big deal in back room of Rakkhat, but assassins are not one shots, usually 2 shots.

However, while I may have missed it, I do not see mundus being taken into consideration with the testing. The changes on the PTS tether weapon traits and mundus together. I do not see how one can be tested without taking the other into consideration.

Further, it appears the testing is very limited. A full parse is required to determine the full effect. At the very least a complete mathematical model. Maybe OP has plans for thorough testing of the full picture.

Again, I may have missed something in the spreadsheet.

Edit: I think both of the links below can shed more light on the subject.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4334417#Comment_4334417
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/14/#post-685516

teladoy · July 2017

This testing is valid only in pve content, where you can crit mobs and they have a fix armor value and etc.

But all this combinations should be tested against 3 characters one with light armor, medium and heavy, and I'm pretty sure the values will be totally different depending the target.

Oompuh · July 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

ziaodix wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

In a Raid Setup, Sharpened will still be better together with Thief compared to Lover + Precise simply because your Tanks can give you Penetration via Alkosh and Crusher but they can't give you extra Crit.

This assumes your tank can apply these in all scenarios (which isn't always the case). So in certain instances you might be better off with a different setup. Example: Back room vMoL, Up Top Boss 2 in vHoF, Up Top Boss 2 in HRC.

Why would 3k pen make or break back room of maw? Aren't they like 1 shot?

As for your other examples, pre morrowind, alkosh on both tanks was standard so I don't see why splitting the group would be any issue.

I agree 3k pen would not be a big deal in back room of Rakkhat, but assassins are not one shots, usually 2 shots.

However, while I may have missed it, I do not see mundus being taken into consideration with the testing. The changes on the PTS tether weapon traits and mundus together. I do not see how one can be tested without taking the other into consideration.

Further, it appears the testing is very limited. A full parse is required to determine the full effect. At the very least a complete mathematical model. Maybe OP has plans for thorough testing of the full picture.

Again, I may have missed something in the spreadsheet.

Edit: I think both of the links below can shed more light on the subject.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4334417#Comment_4334417
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/14/#post-685516

Close enough, I'm a tank I have no idea what goes on back there lol.

And yeah I didn't really understand the spreadsheet, I usually just wait for Alcast or Gilbert to say "this is best" and move on with my life

JonnytheKing · July 2017

teladoy wrote: »

This testing is valid only in pve content, where you can crit mobs and they have a fix armor value and etc.

But all this combinations should be tested against 3 characters one with light armor, medium and heavy, and I'm pretty sure the values will be totally different depending the target.

we are getting to it man

JonnytheKing · July 2017

Oompuh wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

ziaodix wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

In a Raid Setup, Sharpened will still be better together with Thief compared to Lover + Precise simply because your Tanks can give you Penetration via Alkosh and Crusher but they can't give you extra Crit.

This assumes your tank can apply these in all scenarios (which isn't always the case). So in certain instances you might be better off with a different setup. Example: Back room vMoL, Up Top Boss 2 in vHoF, Up Top Boss 2 in HRC.

Why would 3k pen make or break back room of maw? Aren't they like 1 shot?

As for your other examples, pre morrowind, alkosh on both tanks was standard so I don't see why splitting the group would be any issue.

I agree 3k pen would not be a big deal in back room of Rakkhat, but assassins are not one shots, usually 2 shots.

However, while I may have missed it, I do not see mundus being taken into consideration with the testing. The changes on the PTS tether weapon traits and mundus together. I do not see how one can be tested without taking the other into consideration.

Further, it appears the testing is very limited. A full parse is required to determine the full effect. At the very least a complete mathematical model. Maybe OP has plans for thorough testing of the full picture.

Again, I may have missed something in the spreadsheet.

Edit: I think both of the links below can shed more light on the subject.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4334417#Comment_4334417
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/14/#post-685516

Close enough, I'm a tank I have no idea what goes on back there lol.

And yeah I didn't really understand the spreadsheet, I usually just wait for Alcast or Gilbert to say "this is best" and move on with my life

THIS is just the start of the testing as i said we will be moving on to testing over stuff , it takes alot of time guys to do this stuff

JonnytheKing · July 2017

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Well done OP. Thanks for putting in the time and effort!!

Thanks man

STEVIL · July 2017

DarkMatter909 wrote: »

By these numbers sharpened doesn't seem that much behind when looking at his averages. It looks like they all have around the same numbers, wasn't balance the intention?
I'm no math genius, so am I missing something? It didn't look like any of them "over performed" over another to a shocking degree?
Look, all my weapons are sharpened, but if there is another option that would benefit my build it would finally be nice to try one. It has gotten a little boring that all that matters is sharpened.

well one catch is that is sharpened is on par with nirhoned and precise as far as dps, the other two **ALSO** boost healing and on top of that nirhoned does more against shields while sharp and precise dont - so "around the same numbers" when looking only at damage is not the full picture.

to be worth using, sharpened (which only helps with damage and then only in some cases) needs to be noticably better at that one thing it does.

now, of course, in the subset of cases where more healing is of no value and enemy shields are not an issue at all and where damage is all you need to consider, then your point would be right. But that is a small shoebox in a closet of the mansion that is ESO.

Jitterbug · July 2017

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Or you could link the doc and let the data talk.

nine9six wrote: »

Came in hoping for data and got a YouTube video. Maybe later...

I think what you meant to say is "thank you".

Dweebs.

Reorx_Holybeard · July 2017

Could you provide some details on what you are actually testing and what the test result numbers mean? From the video and doc I have no idea where they come from. Thanks!

Toast_STS · July 2017

was this done without CP? I seem to remember the oblivion enchant is only modified with elfborn unless they changed something

Rohamad_Ali · July 2017

Thank you for your work . I had no time to test this patch and this data is what was needed . I will like your video when I log into YouTube

bebynnag · July 2017

i came for the math - i drowned in the salt

thank you OP & friends for your work!
eagerly awaiting the dyslexic friendly dumed down version

Vipstaakki · July 2017

Sharpened is dead! Long live the precise weapons!

Dymence · July 2017

Not to discredit OP, but you're probably better off here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers

DarkMatter909 · July 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

DarkMatter909 wrote: »

By these numbers sharpened doesn't seem that much behind when looking at his averages. It looks like they all have around the same numbers, wasn't balance the intention?
I'm no math genius, so am I missing something? It didn't look like any of them "over performed" over another to a shocking degree?
Look, all my weapons are sharpened, but if there is another option that would benefit my build it would finally be nice to try one. It has gotten a little boring that all that matters is sharpened.

well one catch is that is sharpened is on par with nirhoned and precise as far as dps, the other two **ALSO** boost healing and on top of that nirhoned does more against shields while sharp and precise dont - so "around the same numbers" when looking only at damage is not the full picture.

to be worth using, sharpened (which only helps with damage and then only in some cases) needs to be noticably better at that one thing it does.

now, of course, in the subset of cases where more healing is of no value and enemy shields are not an issue at all and where damage is all you need to consider, then your point would be right. But that is a small shoebox in a closet of the mansion that is ESO.

Thank you for the answer. I wasn't so much trying to make a point as much as understand better when it comes to the math of the game.

Grymmoire · July 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

DarkMatter909 wrote: »

By these numbers sharpened doesn't seem that much behind when looking at his averages. It looks like they all have around the same numbers, wasn't balance the intention?
I'm no math genius, so am I missing something? It didn't look like any of them "over performed" over another to a shocking degree?
Look, all my weapons are sharpened, but if there is another option that would benefit my build it would finally be nice to try one. It has gotten a little boring that all that matters is sharpened.

well one catch is that is sharpened is on par with nirhoned and precise as far as dps, the other two **ALSO** boost healing and on top of that nirhoned does more against shields while sharp and precise dont - so "around the same numbers" when looking only at damage is not the full picture.

to be worth using, sharpened (which only helps with damage and then only in some cases) needs to be noticably better at that one thing it does.

now, of course, in the subset of cases where more healing is of no value and enemy shields are not an issue at all and where damage is all you need to consider, then your point would be right. But that is a small shoebox in a closet of the mansion that is ESO.

Ah, but thankfully that small shoe box is one filled with wonderfully fragrant skooma, I constantly sniff and am so addicted to.

JonnytheKing · July 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Not to discredit OP, but you're probably better off here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers

guess what he says works on paper

akl77 · July 2017

Honestly, I believe nirn should be the top trait, it's rare drop and need 9 trait to craft.
If ZOS want to choose one to buff, it should be nirn or precise for the crit build.

silver1surfer69 · September 2017

JonnytheKing wrote: »

here is a video on the testing we did with the new weapon traits for the new patch , there is a google doc with all the numbers on the video
i think zos needs to buff sharpend just a little , numbers to show why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKlQ0tyMQlQ&lc=z134jzfr1quwdb3by04cc3aqfknfthzbkic

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1odn2cwKTArekfi2QM3TxGL_n8kyT2nXzPATdVtHBRlk/edit?usp=sharing

thx for this awesome testing and data and insight we all can use now. some information would have been nice: was this 1 or 2 h weapon that had been testet? How does 1h compare to 2h sharpened. the restistance values you give, are these of the target or the attacker? what is the resistance of the target? I would love to know the answer but think the thread is mybe to old. thx again!