What is generally being suggested is that the endgame relevant passives being decoupled and re-categorized as a character background, so that you gain upfront advantages or general non-combat ones - Argonians swim faster, Altmer learn faster, etc. This isn't inconsistent with the lore, because as we have seen, there are notable individuals who far exceed anyone else regardless of race, and the fact that these other characters with you in dungeons can hold their own in a fight as well as you can means they are equally exceptional. It wouldn't be inconsistent at all to allow exceptional people to stand out - whether it's a Breton swordsman King or a Khajiit mage Mane, they are all over the game.But you are deliberately excluding data in one case and including in another. You know that those other players are the Vestige, and are willing to ignore that, because it does not say "Vestige" on your screen. But you have nothing on your screen telling you that a character is of a certain power, you would need to have an addon to transmit fly text that states this, otherwise all you are seeing is a character killing a monster (the differences are numerically significant, but not so significant that an Altmer mage is downing bosses with two or three attacks by themselves). Isn't it more fair to other people to let them play what they want and turn off your addon, rather than demanding they adhere to your opinion on what their power level should be based solely on a cosmetic issue?My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.
I am excluding data? How do I know that other players are the Vestige? Just because a character tells me something, doesn't mean that my own has to believe it. Mai'q the Liar tells us that:
"M'aiq was one of the Six Companions, but was asked to leave. Another was jealous of his whiskers."
Are we required to believe him? I am not choosing to exclude this data. I am choosing not to include it, because my character doesn't have sufficient evidence to persuade him of the contrary position.
If the impact of racial bonuses is so subtle, then why the need to choose different ones? Is it not that either the impact is siginifcant (hence this thread), and so the difference would be externally observable. This would make the Argonian with Altmer passives stand out enough to be a problem. Or, the impact isn't significant and so isn't observable, on which basis why do comptetive content groups care?
I am not sure that you can have it both ways.
The racial passive to racial appearance link is not "solely [on] a cosmetic issue". As I previously stated, the fact that racial passives are tied to a race is as a mechanical implementation of that racial identity. The passives are part of looking like a Dunmer, not a random addition to it.
Now, if people were to suggest that combat passives should be decreased in impact in endgame/PvP content (with a battle spirit-esqe effect), or even changed so that they were flavourful without impacting on balance? That I could accept. I would hate it, but I could accept it. It is the decoupling of passives from racial choice that I am against.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
That means nothing. Why do you care what racial passives other players have/use? If they don't set their helmet to be off - you won't even know their race, unless they have a tail. What are you talking about - are you just one of those who don't care themselves but like that other players are "suffering"? I don't get it.
Playing with set racials is "suffering"? We have very different definitions of that word, I suspect.
If this game is going to continue to have the words "Elder Scrolls" in the title then there are some aspects of Lore/tropes that it needs to maintain. My own opinion is that this is one of them. That has nothing to do with other players suffering, that has to do with the nature of the game itself.
If they change the title of the game to "Generic Fantasy Online"? Excellent, all well and good. Change whatever you like and do whatever you wish.
Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
notimetocare wrote: »
Different kind of special. Shalidor doesn't have specific traits like racials that make him special. He has skill
It does however say "bear the racial traits of the mother " and "traces of the father may be present"; -traces- not -traits-. And since the elder scrolls have no DNA analysis, I'd say the only way "traces but not traits" can be present is... cosmetic.1. No we don't realize that, nowhere does it say about the traits being purely cosmetic.TheShadowScout wrote: »...until we re-read this:And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits....and realize our crossbred character would -still- be the race of thjeir mothers, just with some -traces- as in cosmetic features, as in looks, orf their father present, and it wouldn't be a redguard with dunmer passives, but a dunmer with -some- redguardish looks, or a redguard with -some- dunmeri looks.Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.
No, we would have a dunmer with "mixed heritage" looks including some redguard -traces-2. Even if that's the case - good enough. It works for me. Ok then, we'll have a dunmer with dunmer passives but redguard looks. That's exactly the same principle and is what I meant.
You need to stop telling other people what to post!3. You need to stop pushing your own idea. No one cares.
Here we can agree to agree!That being said, your idea is good enough for me. All I want is either all races to be able to play all builds (maybe with some racial flavor, I dont' care, as long as things are more or less balanced like stamina races with each other, for example) or for racials to not matter in combat at the level cap OR even racials being active so players have an option to use that skill on their skill bar.
Please, go ahead and train to outswim a creature adapted to amphibeous life. Or similar, like training to outrun a horse...The first paragraph is absolutely unrelated to what I said. And what's the problem with people who want that? As I said, if they have their helmets on you won't know their races anyway. Why do you care what others play? Play what you like and let them play what they like. Not to mention, that's it's "some strange reason" - there are two plausible explanations of why it could be possible. In your particular example it's even easier. Swimming speed is something a breton could train to increase.
Again, I agree with you on that one. I just think throwing the TES lore about racial advantages overboard is the wrong way to fix this issie.Why can't I play what I like and not gimp myself?
Those are NOT exceptions to the racial traits.Wow that post was THAT long that you already forgot the beginning of it? No, it's not throwing TES lore away. There are 2 explanations already. There are multiple examples of people who showed that Nords can be great mages and argonians - great warriors.
THIS! Exactly this.If this game is going to continue to have the words "Elder Scrolls" in the title then there are some aspects of Lore/tropes that it needs to maintain. My own opinion is that this is one of them. That has nothing to do with other players suffering, that has to do with the nature of the game itself.
If they change the title of the game to "Generic Fantasy Online"? Excellent, all well and good. Change whatever you like and do whatever you wish.
Oh?notimetocare wrote: »
Different kind of special. Shalidor doesn't have specific traits like racials that make him special. He has skill
Skill is something that can be trained. Yet no matter how your Nord player will train, he won't outperform many other mages...
Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Thats an awful idea
I'm not sure I understand this idea correctly. Are you asking to look like a Khajiit, but have the racial advantages of a High Elf? (Substitute Khajiit and High Elf with the race of your choice). Is this what's being proposed?
If yes, why? If you want to look like a Khajiit, and this is purely cosmetic, why do your racial advantages matter? Why not also have Khajiit racial advantages?
If no, what do you mean exactly?
You need to stop projecting your wet dreams here. That's what you want to be. It doesn't matter what "you'd say". And I'd say the game has magic and alchemy including changing the race (or just looks?) already present in game right now! So your DNA analysis has nothing on that.TheShadowScout wrote: »It does however say "bear the racial traits of the mother " and "traces of the father may be present"; -traces- not -traits-. And since the elder scrolls have no DNA analysis, I'd say the only way "traces but not traits" can be present is... cosmetic.
TheShadowScout wrote: »No, we would have a dunmer with "mixed heritage" looks including some redguard -traces-
Possibly instead of grey dunmer skin a blend of grey and brown. Possibly redguard eyes instead of dunmer eyes. Et cetera. But still "mostly dunmer, with some redguard -traces- mixed in"
But not "looks like redguard, passives like dunmer"
Get it?
Ahah coming from creators of "reread my post, I disagree with that, but I agree with what I wrote in my post". Developers will do their job if they are ordered to by their boss. What you suggest is not less lore-breaking than what other suggest especially since I showed at least 2 places in lore where it's plausibly explained + ESO has race change quests.TheShadowScout wrote: »You need to stop telling other people what to post!
Who cares if others care? (though I would suspect some may, and many may perhaps not, since you do -not- speak for -everyone-)
I care about making suggestions on even the slightest chance that maaaybe sometime someone among the developers might notice, get inspired and think up their own stuff in that direction.
That's what many people on the forums do after all.
I happen to think my ideas are not that bad in comparison, but then, I would. Some may agree, others may disagree. Way of the world. Won't make me not share my ideas though when I feel they could be a good addition to ESO...
There is absolutely no reason a breton who trained can't outswim an argonian who hasn't trained. Once again, Shalidor outmaged all elves of his time.TheShadowScout wrote: »Please, go ahead and train to outswim a creature adapted to amphibeous life. Or similar, like training to outrun a horse...
Sure, training is worth much. But when it comes to structural advantages... like gills and webbed toes... training can do only so much.
Although, I do think that it would have been nice to have an "athleticism" skill line where people can "train to increase swimming speed", among other things, just for character options...
TheShadowScout wrote: »Again, I agree with you on that one. I just think throwing the TES lore about racial advantages overboard is the wrong way to fix this issie.
Sure, fixing it -right- would be more effort then just forgetting the whole issue and for example remove all racial passives altogether. But that would not be as "Elder Scrolly" as what lured people like me here...
What? How come? I thought you can't outswim a creature adapted to amphibious life? You're contradicting yourself.TheShadowScout wrote: »Those are NOT exceptions to the racial traits.
Those are exceptional individuals achieving exceptional things through exceptional effort. They still have their non-optimal racial backgrounds, they just rose above them.
Which is what I'd like to see for our player characters as well. Some way to rise above the racial traits.
But not a way to cherry pick your racial traits unrelated to the actual race you selected to play.
[/quote]TheShadowScout wrote: »Oh?
Let's see... CP 15 altmer mage againsat CP 630 nord mage... that is what Champion points are after all, merely training. If one listens to the whining about such encounters from the times before there were no-CP campaigns, it would seem pretty clear the high CP mage has the edge, wouldn't you agree?
So I'd question your statement... if the level of training is different, your nord archmage WILL outperform that altmer journeyman wizard.
So maybe Shalidor (and all other super powerful very important NPCs) just had a special "V.I.NPC" unlock that let him use CP beyond normal cap... that cerainly would explain any specialness, right?
(prolly got access to special skill lines as well, those bast... uhm... overly favored NPCs. Always making us players envious by throwing spells we cannot cast... Curses!)
What matters is that the lore mentioned "traits of the mother" and "traces of the father". Traces, not traits. Which indicates something other then the racial passives. Logically that leaves... cosmetic features, right?You need to stop projecting your wet dreams here. That's what you want to be. It doesn't matter what "you'd say".TheShadowScout wrote: »It does however say "bear the racial traits of the mother " and "traces of the father may be present"; -traces- not -traits-. And since the elder scrolls have no DNA analysis, I'd say the only way "traces but not traits" can be present is... cosmetic.
Yes. Quests about race chance.Or didn't you play the game? Sounds like you aren't as good in lore as you want to believe you are. There are quests about race change in ESO...
...which is -exactly- the kind of thing the powers that be prevented with their magical "child is mothers race" ruling for their elder scrolls universe.I don't think you get it. That's not how evolution works. No one said anything about first-generation dunmer with redguard traces mixed in. You can have a dunmer that moved there and got a child, then that child got a child with another redguard etc. Each new child will have more and more redguard traces in appearance. Rinse repeat until we have a combination of looks and racial passives that you like.
Oh?Your suggestion, on the other hand, is lore-breaking and has no explanation except for "you'd say" and that "you feel it would be good". Or go ahead and explain where it's not lore-breaking compared to other suggestions.
I have no problem with illusions - which is in effect what the draugr and other skins are, just a prank by some mage to scare people. A breton with a draugr illusion is still a breton. Nothing lorebreaking here...Or could you link a thread where you were objecting that players can choose to look like a draugr (polymorph) or have other skins AND be able to turn them on and off at will. Because at this point it's starting to sound like you're a hypocrite.
Now you are starting to contradict yourself.There is absolutely no reason a breton who trained can't outswim an argonian who hasn't trained.
...now you say the opposite?Yet no matter how your Nord player will train, he won't outperform many other mages...
Actually I wouldn't mind that, since as I mentioned, I see those as "illusions". If they make a "generic redguard warrior polymorph" (though I can't really see much reason for them to spend effort on it when people can make redguard characters... but still...), I would not mind a "dunmer spy using this illusion to infiltrate the covenant", or similar fluff explainations. Might be a bit awkward when we see a group fo them though, in an "attack of the clones" sort of way... (anyone remember the early days when we had that with gobbo hordes in cyrodil?)Sure, then don't touch them and just give us skins or polymorphs that make us look like other races. It was okay to do that with multiple skins and polymorphs, right?
Isn't plastic sorcery wonderful?Right now I can change the appearance of my character in the crown store. Not even talking about race. Yesterday you saw me short with brown eyes and today I can be tall with blue eyes AND change the age. No one is talking about throwing the lore overboard.
...unless there is some bit in the lore saying, oh, I dunno, something like how racial traits do not generally change through gene-mix like happens in real life, but are 'magically' inherited from the mother?Where is the line? The line is where it still makes sense in this universe. And if changing DNA to change the eye color, changing bone structure to change height and other parameters, changing the age make sense, then changing the appearance to match looks and racial passives makes even more sense.
Check again the meaning of the word "exceptional".What? How come? I thought you can't outswim a creature adapted to amphibious life? You're contradicting yourself.TheShadowScout wrote: »Those are NOT exceptions to the racial traits.
Those are exceptional individuals achieving exceptional things through exceptional effort. They still have their non-optimal racial backgrounds, they just rose above them.
Which is what I'd like to see for our player characters as well. Some way to rise above the racial traits.
But not a way to cherry pick your racial traits unrelated to the actual race you selected to play.
In your mind, perhaps. In mine, not. Because the latter has lore against it, and the former... hell, everyones age changes, day per day. And with magic in the mix, changing the other direction is a classic as well (see a certain ESO-Morrowind quest involving running errants in preperation for a deadric deal).Yeah no, if changing the age at will is fine, cherry-picking is fine, too.
...which may be where that mysterious "secret of life" Shalidor reportedly "stole from akatosh" comes in - giving him more life to train, perhaps? Certainly him being around still in the times of eso in whatever mystical fashion indicated by his purple glow seems to indicate something more then a nord lifespan worth of experience, right?No one is talking about altmer journeymen. Best altmer couldn't match Shalidor. And it's not about training either. Altmer live - and consequently can train - longer than Nords.
Then let's agree on that and not talk about the rest anymore.Whatever it takes for equal skill to grant equal result. Because right now racial passives ARE NOT what they should be. They don't give you initial advantages that let you reach the ceiling easier but it's still the skill that decides everything. Right now Nord mages can't have the same skill as altmer mages, for example. And now THAT IS lore breaking and that has to be changed.
What is generally being suggested is that the endgame relevant passives being decoupled and re-categorized as a character background, so that you gain upfront advantages or general non-combat ones - Argonians swim faster, Altmer learn faster, etc. This isn't inconsistent with the lore, because as we have seen, there are notable individuals who far exceed anyone else regardless of race, and the fact that these other characters with you in dungeons can hold their own in a fight as well as you can means they are equally exceptional. It wouldn't be inconsistent at all to allow exceptional people to stand out - whether it's a Breton swordsman King or a Khajiit mage Mane, they are all over the game.But you are deliberately excluding data in one case and including in another. You know that those other players are the Vestige, and are willing to ignore that, because it does not say "Vestige" on your screen. But you have nothing on your screen telling you that a character is of a certain power, you would need to have an addon to transmit fly text that states this, otherwise all you are seeing is a character killing a monster (the differences are numerically significant, but not so significant that an Altmer mage is downing bosses with two or three attacks by themselves). Isn't it more fair to other people to let them play what they want and turn off your addon, rather than demanding they adhere to your opinion on what their power level should be based solely on a cosmetic issue?My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.
I am excluding data? How do I know that other players are the Vestige? Just because a character tells me something, doesn't mean that my own has to believe it. Mai'q the Liar tells us that:
"M'aiq was one of the Six Companions, but was asked to leave. Another was jealous of his whiskers."
Are we required to believe him? I am not choosing to exclude this data. I am choosing not to include it, because my character doesn't have sufficient evidence to persuade him of the contrary position.
If the impact of racial bonuses is so subtle, then why the need to choose different ones? Is it not that either the impact is siginifcant (hence this thread), and so the difference would be externally observable. This would make the Argonian with Altmer passives stand out enough to be a problem. Or, the impact isn't significant and so isn't observable, on which basis why do comptetive content groups care?
I am not sure that you can have it both ways.
The racial passive to racial appearance link is not "solely [on] a cosmetic issue". As I previously stated, the fact that racial passives are tied to a race is as a mechanical implementation of that racial identity. The passives are part of looking like a Dunmer, not a random addition to it.
Now, if people were to suggest that combat passives should be decreased in impact in endgame/PvP content (with a battle spirit-esqe effect), or even changed so that they were flavourful without impacting on balance? That I could accept. I would hate it, but I could accept it. It is the decoupling of passives from racial choice that I am against.
It doesn't really matter anyway, *sigh*. ZoS won't do anything anyway, because race change tokens have both cosmetic and mechanical benefits and are 3K a pop. They won't expend effort at something that could make less money.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
That means nothing. Why do you care what racial passives other players have/use? If they don't set their helmet to be off - you won't even know their race, unless they have a tail. What are you talking about - are you just one of those who don't care themselves but like that other players are "suffering"? I don't get it.
Playing with set racials is "suffering"? We have very different definitions of that word, I suspect.
If this game is going to continue to have the words "Elder Scrolls" in the title then there are some aspects of Lore/tropes that it needs to maintain. My own opinion is that this is one of them. That has nothing to do with other players suffering, that has to do with the nature of the game itself.
If they change the title of the game to "Generic Fantasy Online"? Excellent, all well and good. Change whatever you like and do whatever you wish.
You didn't answer the question. And yes it DOES have to do with players suffering in the sense of being limited for no good reason. TES crowd doesn't want looks to define how efficient your character can be. Again, answer. How exactly those racials define the nature of the game? You won't even know or feel what other players are using. So what is your problem here?
Also, how come you are so selective? What about other lore parts ignored, changed or added just to justify what the game has? Like dragon break and jungle.
And ONCE AGAIN. The lore wouldn't NOT be broken. There are at least two plausible explanations IN LORE ALREADY of why such thing is possible. Do you only read the middle paragraph of a post? In the very post that you replied to everything is explained just above the part that you quoted.
Nonsense. No, it doesn't leave that logically. Never does it say that they aren't traces of DNA. Moreover, accepting your "logic" contradicts the fact that bosmer exist. How could they change their racial passives if they always were forced to keep their mother's passives?TheShadowScout wrote: »What matters is that the lore mentioned "traits of the mother" and "traces of the father". Traces, not traits. Which indicates something other then the racial passives. Logically that leaves... cosmetic features, right?
Or what would you say might be something that isn't a trait, but still present detectable enough with medieval methods to be called "trace" by the people of tamriel?
Maybe you need to stop trying to lawyer the lore to fit your game mechanics wet dreams?
Nope. That's not how it works. We don't know that the race actually changed. What we know is that he now looks argonian. All we can state after completing the quest is "dunmer is now looking argonian". Period. Full stop. Now if you add a new affirmative claim "his racial passives changed as well", then the burden of proof is on you and it's up to you to show me the part where it says that he didn't keep his original passives. Go on. No?TheShadowScout wrote: »Yes. Quests about race chance.
Not quests about "free passive selection"
Show me the part where that dunmer turning argonian in greenshade rertains dunmer passives, or those hired hands in rivenspire turning gobbo keep their original passives. Go on.
No?
Then why talk about this here? The "race change" feature is already in the game, yes?
TheShadowScout wrote: »...which is -exactly- the kind of thing the powers that be prevented with their magical "child is mothers race" ruling for their elder scrolls universe.
Doesn't matter if evolution works differently in non-magical worlds like ours because Nirn -is- a magical world where some things may be governed by magical rules that do not exist hereabouts.
Doesn't matter if there are instances of races changing by power of lore-plot or deus-ex-oblivion in the distant past, since we know all too well no such change will occur in the times between ESO and the other TES games.
The writers of the background decreed that all children would generally follow their mothers race and racial traits - for the exact reason to forestall any calls for "custom racial selection" or "halfbreed characters" just because they didn't want to program such things into their elder scrolls.
Accept it.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Oh?
It is lore breaking to consider that the cultural background and birthplace people grew up in may have some effect on them in addition to racial passives you say? That people who grew up with parents able to afford magical tutors might later have an edge in magic? That people who grew up doing hard work may end up with some physical development from it? That people who grew up in the icy snows of skyrim may be better at dealing with cold?
Go on then, show me the lore that says so! Show me the lore it breaks.
I'll wait...
Great. Let us buy an "illusion token" so we can customize our illusion.TheShadowScout wrote: »I have no problem with illusions - which is in effect what the draugr and other skins are, just a prank by some mage to scare people. A breton with a draugr illusion is still a breton. Nothing lorebreaking here...
No I don't. Because, read what I said completely, not just a few words here and there. Your reading comprehension is awful. And you don't know who gets the burden of proof... Are you sure you should be arguing with people at all?..TheShadowScout wrote: »
You would need to be really alternatively gifted not to agree with this.TheShadowScout wrote: »Though generally I agree. An nord sorceror trained in magic will certainly outmage an altmer archer trained in archery and not magic. Or an altmer civilian not trained in any kind of combat at all. Or dozends of other examples.
Just like a trained swimmer will outswim an amphibeous creature that never learned how to make use of their webbed toes because they were raised in captivity and under non-species-specific conditions, thus never got to learn how to swim.
But the trained swimmer will fare quite differently against an amphibeous creature that has spent their life swimming to catch their dinner, right?
So, what I meant was, a racial advantage is always an extra bonus in addition to all the training. And no amout of training can make someone "acquire" a structural advantage like webbed toes, cat eyes, or generations of cold adaptation - though I agree that it -should- be possible to get to the same point with more effort in most cases, which it currently isn't.
I am just saying, allowing bretons to magically trade in their elven-inherited magic affinity for argonian gills and webbed digits is not the right way to fix this...
Oh you see those as illusions? Perfect. Then no need rethink anything. ZOS, let us customize the races, and he can see that as illusions.TheShadowScout wrote: »
Actually I wouldn't mind that, since as I mentioned, I see those as "illusions". If they make a "generic redguard warrior polymorph" (though I can't really see much reason for them to spend effort on it when people can make redguard characters... but still...), I would not mind a "dunmer spy using this illusion to infiltrate the covenant", or similar fluff explainations. Might be a bit awkward when we see a group fo them though, in an "attack of the clones" sort of way... (anyone remember the early days when we had that with gobbo hordes in cyrodil?)
TheShadowScout wrote: »Isn't plastic sorcery wonderful?
Ever since that face changer wizard in skyrim, that is part of the TES lore. Never was any lore against it either. So why would people say something about it?
And how you handle it in your characters personal story is up to you and your roleplaying. In-character magical makeover? Out of character appearence retconning? Out of character complete character redesign including name and backstory change to a "completely different person" (I once experienced a very well done roleplay chain leading up to just that, it was wicked fun!)?
Up to you.
Sure, there will be. They'll add a book somewhere about the opposite and it's done. Not a problem whatsoever.TheShadowScout wrote: »...unless there is some bit in the lore saying, oh, I dunno, something like how racial traits do not generally change through gene-mix like happens in real life, but are 'magically' inherited from the mother?
I don't need to. You made a general statement that "one can't do X". Next time watch your words then.TheShadowScout wrote: »Check again the meaning of the word "exceptional".
Doing something that most people cannot is what makes it so special.
Duh.. Facepalm. I mentioned that before. Clavicus Vile could make that deal. Or Molag Bal could've experimented with us in Coldharbor. It's SO easy to explain stuff like that. Just like your appearance change was added at some point, not being justified by any lore written prior to that. Not to mention cyrodiil's jungle , etc.TheShadowScout wrote: »(though come to think of it... there might be a deadric prince who makes such trades... though almost certainly with unfortunate side effects, which is why we are not likely to see such options for our characters. besides, Shalidor made his trading mistake with a different prince...)
Nonsense again. Age changes, yes. Not to the younger side, though. But I can change it like that now. And what lore is there because of that, huh? Go ahead and link some lore books explaining that. Didn't see any mentions of that in ESO.TheShadowScout wrote: »In your mind, perhaps. In mine, not. Because the latter has lore against it, and the former... hell, everyones age changes, day per day. And with magic in the mix, changing the other direction is a classic as well (see a certain ESO-Morrowind quest involving running errants in preperation for a deadric deal).
Do.not.give.a.task.TheShadowScout wrote: »...which may be where that mysterious "secret of life" Shalidor reportedly "stole from akatosh" comes in - giving him more life to train, perhaps? Certainly him being around still in the times of eso in whatever mystical fashion indicated by his purple glow seems to indicate something more then a nord lifespan worth of experience, right?
Absolutely. No altmer of that time has done anything as cool. And there's no reason stuff that was cooler suddenly became forgotten. So until there's a proof of the opposite - yes, Shalidor was cooler.TheShadowScout wrote: »Also, I don't recall anything to support that "the best altmer couldn't match Shalidor"... was there a wizard contest we are unaware of? Oh, he certainly -did- more legend-worthy things then many an altmer sorceror, not that you'd get an altmer to admit that... but all those "the greatest" claims require actually winning top spot in some kind of competition I would think...
(also, humans in fantasy lore generally tend to be way more focussed on training then elves, because those arrogant elf sorcerors think they arer so high and mighty that they will win by racial advantage alone and thus need not put much effort into it, whereas humans would be more inclined to be driven to accomplish something worthwhile in their usually much shorter lifespan)
No. Why would that be? There's no lore justification for that. In fact- there are only examples of the opposite. And the previous games only prove it. The ceiling is the same. Gifted races just have easier time getting there. (and yes, if your "lore" about the age change is that you could do it in skyrim, then this point is even more true).TheShadowScout wrote: »But my point remains. Racial advantage plus some training won't beat no racial advantage and lots of training, even in the current system.
You say a lot of nonsensical things, that my scientific mind simply can't let slide.TheShadowScout wrote: »Then let's agree on that and not talk about the rest anymore.
Because I agree with that.
The sample was representative without you.
You are speaking for the TES crowd? Interesting, I consider myself far more TES crowd than MMO crowd and I certainly didn't get the ballot paper to elect you as our spokesman.
Yep, yet you are still playing.I have already said in this thread that I consider "dragon break" to be symptomatic of lazy storytelling. A device that was specifically created to allow multiple game endings to become canon should not be employed to explain every last inconvenience retcon in a game world. I have argued against the ones I have already seen, but even if I hadn't (which I did) saying that I have to either stand against everything that is already in the game, or I could stand against no single thing under discussion for introduction is a false dilemma.
Can easily be expanded and improved to justify what OP is asking for. The fact that it's vague is not making it any worse - you can build on that easily.This text is possibly the least definitive statement I have seen. It does not define what kind of traces these "may" be in terms of ability or appearance, it does not quantify in what proportions the mother/father traits have been observed ("generally" vs. "some traces" is no use at all), and it specifically mentions that certain pairings (Argonians and Khajiit vs Humans and Elves, Orc vs Bosmer and Elves) have not been observed... and so interfertility cannot be established.
It is a text that is vague to the point of uselessness and even admits within itself that it is far from comprehensive. As such I consider it inadmissible on either side of the argument.
"As the Aldmer began to change their ways to match their new environment, adapting to the forest in body and mind, they became known as the Bosmer."
This is a superb point and may well open the door to the things you wish if one condition can be met: Can you establish that there was an interfertile community, of sufficient size to account for every cross-racial player, of each race living in each of the racial homelands for long enough for what is, in effect, evolution to have occurred?
Then show me where "traces of DNA" are mentioned in ESO lore.Nonsense. No, it doesn't leave that logically. Never does it say that they aren't traces of DNA.TheShadowScout wrote: »What matters is that the lore mentioned "traits of the mother" and "traces of the father". Traces, not traits. Which indicates something other then the racial passives. Logically that leaves... cosmetic features, right?
Or what would you say might be something that isn't a trait, but still present detectable enough with medieval methods to be called "trace" by the people of tamriel?
Maybe you need to stop trying to lawyer the lore to fit your game mechanics wet dreams?
Good question. Could be the will of Y'ffre. Could be -gasp- magic. Or it could even be that things were different in past eras.Moreover, accepting your "logic" contradicts the fact that bosmer exist. How could they change their racial passives if they always were forced to keep their mother's passives?
Ah, reversing burden of proof, are we?Nope. That's not how it works. We don't know that the race actually changed. What we know is that he now looks argonian. All we can state after completing the quest is "dunmer is now looking argonian". Period. Full stop. Now if you add a new affirmative claim "his racial passives changed as well", then the burden of proof is on you and it's up to you to show me the part where it says that he didn't keep his original passives.TheShadowScout wrote: »Yes. Quests about race chance.
Not quests about "free passive selection"
Show me the part where that dunmer turning argonian in greenshade rertains dunmer passives, or those hired hands in rivenspire turning gobbo keep their original passives. Go on.
No?
Then why talk about this here? The "race change" feature is already in the game, yes?
Right back atcha!Go on. No?
Pfft. Didn't think so. pathetic.
No, it doesn't. ESO is full of races changing in eras past, usually through magical intervention of some sort. Yet somehow that doesn't seem to happen anymore, as evidenced by the races we have in ESO now are not changing in any significant-enough-to-be-mentioned-in-lore way from 2nd era times until the last TES installment in the 4th era.No. Accepting it contradict the fact that bosmers are there.TheShadowScout wrote: »...which is -exactly- the kind of thing the powers that be prevented with their magical "child is mothers race" ruling for their elder scrolls universe.
Doesn't matter if evolution works differently in non-magical worlds like ours because Nirn -is- a magical world where some things may be governed by magical rules that do not exist hereabouts.
Doesn't matter if there are instances of races changing by power of lore-plot or deus-ex-oblivion in the distant past, since we know all too well no such change will occur in the times between ESO and the other TES games.
The writers of the background decreed that all children would generally follow their mothers race and racial traits - for the exact reason to forestall any calls for "custom racial selection" or "halfbreed characters" just because they didn't want to program such things into their elder scrolls.
Accept it.
Wrong. Becuase "traces of DNA" are not a part of the TES lore, a lore depicting a magical, medieval-tech world. Show me where people in medieval times discovered DNA, and we can talk about it.The ONLY WAY it makes sense is that it's traces of DNA.
True, the writings say "traits of the mother, traces of the father", yes?Nowhere does it say that "it's just the appearance".
You do realize that I also suggested an additional "where a character grew up" passive for further character diversification, yes? So obviosuly I do not consider that lore-breaking at all...Yes it is. If it's lore breaking to consider that parents and where a character grew up (and his family lived for generations) is lore-breaking, then cultural background is even more lore-breaking.TheShadowScout wrote: »Oh?
It is lore breaking to consider that the cultural background and birthplace people grew up in may have some effect on them in addition to racial passives you say? That people who grew up with parents able to afford magical tutors might later have an edge in magic? That people who grew up doing hard work may end up with some physical development from it? That people who grew up in the icy snows of skyrim may be better at dealing with cold?
Go on then, show me the lore that says so! Show me the lore it breaks.
I'll wait...
I disagree. But then, I come from a land where people voted to let a guy named Adolph Hilter "fix" things, and we saw how that turned out. So I am more of a mind to fix things the right way and not the wrong way...In the end, it doesn't matter if something is fixed the right way or not. First - fix it. Then see if you can improve the fix.
If you were satisfied with them selling "generic redguard warrior polymorph" and "generic dunmer thief polymorph"... I'd have no issue with people using such.Oh you see those as illusions? Perfect. Then no need rethink anything.TheShadowScout wrote: »Actually I wouldn't mind that, since as I mentioned, I see those as "illusions". If they make a "generic redguard warrior polymorph" (though I can't really see much reason for them to spend effort on it when people can make redguard characters... but still...), I would not mind a "dunmer spy using this illusion to infiltrate the covenant", or similar fluff explainations. Might be a bit awkward when we see a group fo them though, in an "attack of the clones" sort of way... (anyone remember the early days when we had that with gobbo hordes in cyrodil?)
...unless there is an established bit of lore against it.LOL it wasn't a part of TES lore until it became a part of TES lore. Do you not get it? Similarly, anything else can be added to justify ANYTHING else.
...you are not all that well versed in stories about magical worlds, are you? From fountain of youth to dozends of other magical means, rejuvneration is a classic in such tales.Nonsense again. Age changes, yes. Not to the younger side, though.
No.Let me do whatever I want...
That we all can agree with! Cooler then some stuck up altmer sitting in his tower all day loing, thinking he does not need to do cool stuff because he is already the pinnacle of creation, inheritor to the glory of the daedra and all that? Definitely.Absolutely. No altmer of that time has done anything as cool. And there's no reason stuff that was cooler suddenly became forgotten. So until there's a proof of the opposite - yes, Shalidor was cooler.
What??No. Why would that be?TheShadowScout wrote: »But my point remains. Racial advantage plus some training won't beat no racial advantage and lots of training, even in the current system.
That after saying a nonsensical thing does not make your mind seem something to brag about, really...You say a lot of nonsensical things, that my scientific mind simply can't let slide.
Yep, yet you are still playing.I have already said in this thread that I consider "dragon break" to be symptomatic of lazy storytelling. A device that was specifically created to allow multiple game endings to become canon should not be employed to explain every last inconvenience retcon in a game world. I have argued against the ones I have already seen, but even if I hadn't (which I did) saying that I have to either stand against everything that is already in the game, or I could stand against no single thing under discussion for introduction is a false dilemma.
Can easily be expanded and improved to justify what OP is asking for. The fact that it's vague is not making it any worse - you can build on that easily.This text is possibly the least definitive statement I have seen. It does not define what kind of traces these "may" be in terms of ability or appearance, it does not quantify in what proportions the mother/father traits have been observed ("generally" vs. "some traces" is no use at all), and it specifically mentions that certain pairings (Argonians and Khajiit vs Humans and Elves, Orc vs Bosmer and Elves) have not been observed... and so interfertility cannot be established.
It is a text that is vague to the point of uselessness and even admits within itself that it is far from comprehensive. As such I consider it inadmissible on either side of the argument.
"As the Aldmer began to change their ways to match their new environment, adapting to the forest in body and mind, they became known as the Bosmer."
This is a superb point and may well open the door to the things you wish if one condition can be met: Can you establish that there was an interfertile community, of sufficient size to account for every cross-racial player, of each race living in each of the racial homelands for long enough for what is, in effect, evolution to have occurred?
Sure, why not? Add a book by some archaeologist who found the trace of such community. It's as easy as adding one lore book or quest.
Also, the ONLY other possible outcome is that the whole race just suddenly turned into a new race. If you're claiming that - can you prove that? Not really. And that's the thing. It might as well have been what I said - and then we can have our thing.
Then again, there are TONS of other possible ways to justify it.
I wouldn't mind different races if that meant different game play (balanced of course). But now it's simply choosing how you look and how you perform. Choosing some races is simply gimping yourself. This needs to be fixed. Whatever it takes.
I definitely will, right after you show me the mention of cultural differences affecting racial properties.TheShadowScout wrote: »Then show me where "traces of DNA" are mentioned in ESO lore.
Go on.
I am waiting...
Or we realize that in the framework of the universe, "DNA" is not exactly something that would be known to exist.
Thus, using the classic occams razor method of reasoning... the most likely explaination is cosmetic features, yes?
Perfect. Then let us change our passives by the will of some deity too. Or make a deal with Clavicus Vile or whatever. The point is - THERE is a precedent already.TheShadowScout wrote: »
Good question. Could be the will of Y'ffre. Could be -gasp- magic. Or it could even be that things were different in past eras.
We -do- know from playing other TES games that none of these races will change in the future throughout the third and fourth era, despite all the interbreeding that may or may not be going on during those centuries, so that kinda indicates that whatever happened to establish the current races is somehow NOT still going on... thus making your point about bosmer (or bretons for that matter) kinda moot.
TheShadowScout wrote: »
Now, in absence of proof, we who are able to do so -could- try and use logic... and agree that the most likely explaination is that the passives did indeed change - just like if a character used a racechange token! Which IS the closest current game mechanic equivalent for permanent racechange.
(if it was just a temporary polymorph, like turning monkey in coldharbour, it would be a different thing)
Racial passives in the 4th era are different from what we have now, so they did change. How?TheShadowScout wrote: »
No, it doesn't. ESO is full of races changing in eras past, usually through magical intervention of some sort. Yet somehow that doesn't seem to happen anymore, as evidenced by the races we have in ESO now are not changing in any significant-enough-to-be-mentioned-in-lore way from 2nd era times until the last TES installment in the 4th era.
So, it is entirely possible that something changed in some magical way between the times when races still changed, and the times ESO is set in. Because in all the times we have games set, the rule is "Traits of the mother, traces of the father"
No matter how much you dislike that as it forestalls your "gimme cherry picking" arguments.
ESO has nothing to do with medieval times or medieval understanding. It's simply different because of magic and all. The universe is different. The laws of physics are different.TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong. Becuase "traces of DNA" are not a part of the TES lore, a lore depicting a magical, medieval-tech world. Show me where people in medieval times discovered DNA, and we can talk about it.
True, the writings say "traits of the mother, traces of the father", yes?
So, go on then. What medieval-understanding percievable feature could be a "trace" but not enough to be a "trait"?
I say the most logical explaination is stuff like fair hair on a redguard, dark skin on a nord, blue eyes on a dunmer, dark hair on a altmer, etc.
You just keep arguing for any sliver of justification to rule-lawyer your cherry picking desires.
Yup, and you said it was lore-breaking. And if you don't consider it's lore-breaking - then it's etymology and won't be reflected in the gameplay at all, so who cares? I was talking about a redguard mating with dunmer, for example, so we can have one appearance and other racials. You were against it. If not - then what are you arguing with?TheShadowScout wrote: »
You do realize that I also suggested an additional "where a character grew up" passive for further character diversification, yes? So obviosuly I do not consider that lore-breaking at all...
Just in this comment, above, you were saying that stuff like that can't pass because of occam's razor... As I said - pick one.TheShadowScout wrote: »And the only lore we have for "parents passing on of racial traits" in general is the one that says the father for some magical reason does not pass on his racial traits to the offspring.
THAT is the only lore there that can have any effect in derailing such ideas as "lore-breaking".
(even though it obviously was just added to the lore to prevent people arguing for "halfbreed" characters to they could cherry-pick racial traits, because the developers did not want to have to bother with that)
Arguing against that is arguing against the lore, everything else... If it is not mentioned as "lore-forbidden", it thus could be expanded upon, as -addition- to the current system.
Remember, "lore breaking" only means going against some established lore.
When there is no lore established... it cannot be lore breaking.
(and yeah, dwemer plasma guns would not be lore breaking in that frame. After all, they already have electrical weapons, and flame weapons... Though its'd be highly unlikely to be implemented in any way that broke game balance... so what would be the point unless one wanted some really impressive raid boss attack?)
And I come from a land that kicked his arse. But that's not relevant to this discussion whatsoever. It's a computer game, any change or fix can always be rolled back.TheShadowScout wrote: »
I disagree. But then, I come from a land where people voted to let a guy named Adolph Hilter "fix" things, and we saw how that turned out. So I am more of a mind to fix things the right way and not the wrong way...
There is no reason to make them generic. As long as cry babies like you can rationalize it away that it's an illusion, then it's fine.TheShadowScout wrote: »If you were satisfied with them selling "generic redguard warrior polymorph" and "generic dunmer thief polymorph"... I'd have no issue with people using such.
There is no need to write any special code. Implement the choice of racial passives for existing races - just add it to the character creation and let people like you think it's an illusion. There is no reason for different mages to use the same illusions.TheShadowScout wrote: »Then you can make a thread asking for a polymorph customization feature.
And likely get laughed at.
I mean, sure the idea is not that bad, but... in no relation to the coding effort for a second set of appearance data attached to every single polymorph I would think, and too specialized for them to see much profit in it...
(Polymorph colorings on the other hand might be easy enough, just like for costumes I would think...)
TheShadowScout wrote: »...unless there is an established bit of lore against it.
Oh, sure, things could be retconned, like cyrodil jungles for example, but that always leaves a grating bit of vexation among fans... so it should only be done if neccessary for some reason, only if the result is worth it.
And pleasing cherry picking enthusiasts is not a worthy cause.
Other worlds are irrelevant. Oh yeah but that quest takes place AFTER the time of ESO. And as you said before - it's plausible to assume that "something changed in magical ways" so we can't change race looks-passives combination anymore, didn't you?TheShadowScout wrote: »...you are not all that well versed in stories about magical worlds, are you? From fountain of youth to dozends of other magical means, rejuvneration is a classic in such tales.
And as mentioned, there is even a quest in Vvardenfell where you help a telvanni sorceress to regain her youth...
Yes, as long as it's not hurting anyone. And IT DOESN'T. Because for all YOU know I AM a khajit even if my passives are those of altmer.TheShadowScout wrote: »No.
Play a single player game where you can mod whatever you want if that's your desire.
But if its a multiplayer game, the thoughts anf feelings of others have to be taken into account.
And if its a Elder Scrolls game, the elder scrolls lore has to be taken into account.
Ah you keep walking in circles. Sure , it SHOULDN'T beat it, but in this game the way it's implemented right now IT DOES. That's the point.TheShadowScout wrote: »
I think you need to read my comment again. Because I said "advantage and a little training won't beat no advantage and lots of training"
Trying to insult me won't help your cause. I know what I'm talking about, just happen to be educated in that field.TheShadowScout wrote: »That after saying a nonsensical thing does not make your mind seem something to brag about, really...
I think I make a lot of sense. So maybe I stometimes don't convey it too well into english... and my sense certainly is not some you would want to accept, seeing how it opposes your cherry picking desires, but that's besides the point. Not like we will ever agree on this one. Which makes me wonder why you seem so intent on focussing on the points we disagree on, instead of talking about the points were we do...
Not a fallacy at all. You make a BS argument, you get the same back.
You have said that there are things that TheShadowScout posts that your scientific mind won't let slide? Mine won't let this slide. Either your argument will stand without this unsupported appeal to anonymous authority, or it won't. I am far more interested in considering it light of the evidence, rather than seeing you resorting to rhetological fallacies like this one.
Thus highlighting that it is a false dilemma. The idea that a player should be happy with every aspect of the game or quit it is specious and unrealistic. I will stop playing when I find that either there is no further entertainment for me to be had here, or the weight of things I dislike about the game exceeds those that I do.
Am I then required to accept, without argument, an addition to the game that might impact on both of those conditions? Not even vaguely. So here we are.
ZOS could. Should they choose to. However citing it as evidence for or against (as you did) as it stands is singularly unhelpful. It has little weight as it does, in effect, assert very little indeed.
I doubt it is as easy to explain away as added a single book or quest. Not even addressing the required scale of such a book or quest that would establish the bloodlines of all of the possible combinations, which would have to be grandiose indeed, the issue is that ESO is in the past as far as the rest of the franchise is concerned.
The direct effect of this is, as I mentioned in my previous post about Shalidor-level characters, that there isn't just a burden on ZOS to explain how they came to be in this time period, but also in how all of these various communities came to disappear in such a fashion as to leave little or no evidence of their existence for us to encounter in the later games. Or do you have sources that provide evidence that those communities did exist at this time?