Is there a PVE set better than julianos in U15?

Minute_Waltz · July 2017

Rather than comparing to all the current set meta for different classes, lets just look at it against the old bsw set.

In the previous meta, BSW was the bis set for all classes, and the difference was having 360 sd (60% uptime on 600 sd proc) against juliano's 300 sd, with same 2 and 3 pc bonuses and similar 4pc bonus (bsw sd vs juli crit).

Now with the 55% buff to crit, 4pc juli essentially makes up for the loss of 60 sd. Reasoning behind it was if you were to buff sd by 55%, you would get extra 70 sd. (it has been done in the past that crit is similar to sd in terms of performance.) And this is not even considering elfborn bonus and possible meta shift to shadow mundus, which may be more beneficial than sd with major/minor sorcery.

The only sets that are comparable that I can think of are scathing (58% uptime without twisting proc, not sure how viable that is in trials), necropotence (5pc weakened indirectly due to max mag buffs) and sun (slightly behind in pure dps but have extra 1k health)

Any other set suggestions? Or are we going to see Julianos meta in U15? (At least for some classes)

Magdalina · July 2017

All 3 of Necro non-5 pc boni are getting buffed though. That sounds like it'd make it even stronger in comparison to other stuff than now.

bebynnag · July 2017

TBS could be making a comeback - im not on PTS though so what do i know!

Subversus · July 2017

@Magdalina yeah, necro got super buffed this patch

Minute_Waltz · July 2017

puffytheslayer wrote: »

TBS could be making a comeback - im not on PTS though so what do i know!

One way to compare tbs to juli is simply keeping one mundus fixed (so lets say we use lover as base for both sets), and compare the rest. if i use thief mundus on tbs, ill be breaking even with juli's 2-4 pcs, and on tbs i have extra 1pc stam 1pc health, vs juli's 300 sd.. which highlights tbs isnt really bis in terms of min max dps

PS4_ZeColmeia · July 2017

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

TBS could be making a comeback - im not on PTS though so what do i know!

One way to compare tbs to juli is simply keeping one mundus fixed (so lets say we use lover as base for both sets), and compare the rest. if i use thief mundus on tbs, ill be breaking even with juli's 2-4 pcs, and on tbs i have extra 1pc stam 1pc health, vs juli's 300 sd.. which highlights tbs isnt really bis in terms of min max dps

But only if you care about crit

Izaki · July 2017

Scathing Mage is even more BiS for Mageblades.

casparian · July 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Scathing Mage is even more BiS for Mageblades.

God I hope so.

TARAFRAKA · July 2017

But it's not proccing off of twisting path on the PTS. So why would it be bis?

Marabornwingrion · July 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Scathing Mage is even more BiS for Mageblades.

Why? Twisting Path won't proc it anymore...

acw37162 · July 2017

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

techprince · July 2017

Twisting path no longer procs it but that seems to be a bug as it isnt getting affected by thama as well.

SodanTok · July 2017

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

But you can use Hunding/Julianos with lover and get almost same crit chance as Thief while getting better close damage to warrior/apprentice
EDIT:
You actually get same or better amount than thief. Then the max stat beats out the TBS one relevant to damage. And then you get to compare 300dmg vs health and off stat.

I may be doing something wrongly because I cant find situation where TBS is good now. Lover is less penetration than 5th bonuses. Thief is same or less than 2 regular set bonuses. Warrior/Apprentice is worse than sets with 300 dmg.
... every set can beat out mundus by having 2 regular bonuses or one 5th.
Using TBS basically means you are using 5.8 worth of REGULAR set bonuses. Any set with 5piece better than 1.85 of regular set bonus is simply better than TBS. Thats almost all of them that are relevant.

//EDIT2:
Damn, forgot divines. So 5th piece of TBS is worth 2.8 of regular set bonuses If I am counting it right this time.

Masel · July 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

But you can use Hunding/Julianos with lover and get almost same crit chance as Thief while getting better damage than warrior/apprentice
EDIT:
You actually get same or better amount than thief. Then the max stat beats out the TBS one relevant to damage. And then you get to compare 300dmg vs health and off stat.

I may be doing something wrongly because I cant find situation where TBS is good now. Lover is less penetration than 5th bonuses. Thief is same or less than 2 regular set bonuses. Warrior/Apprentice is worse than sets with 300 dmg.
... every set can beat out mundus by having 2 regular bonuses or one 5th.

Warrior and apprentice give 60 spell/weapon damage more than Hundings/Julianos with full divines.

NEVER FORGET DIVINES with mundus stones.

TBS would give you either (on top of the stam, mag and health):

4193 pen (stronger than spinner/spriggan 5-piece, but weaker than TFS 5-piece)
359 spell/weapon damage (more than Julianos 5-piece, but not enough to make up for the 2-4 piece)
13.72% crit (5% more than the five piece of leviathan)
18% crit damage (shadow)<this is freakin strong on stamina with thief+Twice fanged serpent
3107 Magicka (rather meh)

SodanTok · July 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

But you can use Hunding/Julianos with lover and get almost same crit chance as Thief while getting better damage than warrior/apprentice
EDIT:
You actually get same or better amount than thief. Then the max stat beats out the TBS one relevant to damage. And then you get to compare 300dmg vs health and off stat.

I may be doing something wrongly because I cant find situation where TBS is good now. Lover is less penetration than 5th bonuses. Thief is same or less than 2 regular set bonuses. Warrior/Apprentice is worse than sets with 300 dmg.
... every set can beat out mundus by having 2 regular bonuses or one 5th.

Warrior and apprentice give 60 spell/weapon damage more than Hundings/Julianos with full divines.

NEVER FORGET DIVINES with mundus stones.

True. That makes it less awful. Still awful. You still get 'divines-less' thief while 60 less damage than 'divine-full' warrior/apprentice. For offstat and health.

Also any of the overland penetration sets (spriggan and the magicka one) should be better than lover+thief TBS (since you get better regulat set bonuses)

Probably some combo with shadow could be good enough. I just dont see which one.

TimeDazzler · July 2017

Glad i golded out my hundings rage a year ago

Masel · July 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

But you can use Hunding/Julianos with lover and get almost same crit chance as Thief while getting better damage than warrior/apprentice
EDIT:
You actually get same or better amount than thief. Then the max stat beats out the TBS one relevant to damage. And then you get to compare 300dmg vs health and off stat.

I may be doing something wrongly because I cant find situation where TBS is good now. Lover is less penetration than 5th bonuses. Thief is same or less than 2 regular set bonuses. Warrior/Apprentice is worse than sets with 300 dmg.
... every set can beat out mundus by having 2 regular bonuses or one 5th.

Warrior and apprentice give 60 spell/weapon damage more than Hundings/Julianos with full divines.

NEVER FORGET DIVINES with mundus stones.

True. That makes it less awful. Still awful. You still get 'divines-less' thief while 60 less damage than 'divine-full' warrior/apprentice. For offstat and health.

The shadow is a really strong mundus. But you might still be better off just dropping thief and running Hundings+Shadow. Especially on khajiit that is very good.

Damn NA server lag prevents me from testing properly

SodanTok · July 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

But you can use Hunding/Julianos with lover and get almost same crit chance as Thief while getting better damage than warrior/apprentice
EDIT:
You actually get same or better amount than thief. Then the max stat beats out the TBS one relevant to damage. And then you get to compare 300dmg vs health and off stat.

I may be doing something wrongly because I cant find situation where TBS is good now. Lover is less penetration than 5th bonuses. Thief is same or less than 2 regular set bonuses. Warrior/Apprentice is worse than sets with 300 dmg.
... every set can beat out mundus by having 2 regular bonuses or one 5th.

Warrior and apprentice give 60 spell/weapon damage more than Hundings/Julianos with full divines.

NEVER FORGET DIVINES with mundus stones.

True. That makes it less awful. Still awful. You still get 'divines-less' thief while 60 less damage than 'divine-full' warrior/apprentice. For offstat and health.

The shadow is a really strong mundus. But you might still be better off just dropping thief and running Hundings+Shadow. Especially on khajiit that is very good.

Damn NA server lag prevents me from testing properly

Shadow is very good, but I dont think any other mundus is worth over any other set that is offering something similiar to him. You almost always get more from the whole package when you consider TBS wastes one of the set pieces on your off stat (and health, but lets call health somehow useful now with usage of the regen/stat/hp drinks)

Izaki · July 2017

acw37162 wrote: »

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

This isn't about getting full penetration anymore because its easy to sacrifice too much for it. This is about finding balance between a decent penetration value and other stats.

Example:

https://imgur.com/fxVhSZu
^ 48k with Shadow (not capped penetration, about 3.5k away from 18.2k)

https://imgur.com/kjzhotC
^ 47k with the Lover (capped penetration, 18.2k)

Masel · July 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

But you can use Hunding/Julianos with lover and get almost same crit chance as Thief while getting better damage than warrior/apprentice
EDIT:
You actually get same or better amount than thief. Then the max stat beats out the TBS one relevant to damage. And then you get to compare 300dmg vs health and off stat.

I may be doing something wrongly because I cant find situation where TBS is good now. Lover is less penetration than 5th bonuses. Thief is same or less than 2 regular set bonuses. Warrior/Apprentice is worse than sets with 300 dmg.
... every set can beat out mundus by having 2 regular bonuses or one 5th.

Warrior and apprentice give 60 spell/weapon damage more than Hundings/Julianos with full divines.

NEVER FORGET DIVINES with mundus stones.

True. That makes it less awful. Still awful. You still get 'divines-less' thief while 60 less damage than 'divine-full' warrior/apprentice. For offstat and health.

The shadow is a really strong mundus. But you might still be better off just dropping thief and running Hundings+Shadow. Especially on khajiit that is very good.

Damn NA server lag prevents me from testing properly

Shadow is very good, but I dont think any other mundus is worth over any other set that is offering something similiar to him. You almost always get more from the whole package when you consider TBS wastes one of the set pieces on your off stat (and health, but lets call health somehow useful now with usage of the regen/stat/hp drinks)

Yeah when doing the whole game math you get to the same conclusion. TBS is nearly always inferior to hundings/julianos. Spinner + Apprentice+Infused wins for magicka by the way...

Masel · July 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

This isn't about getting full penetration anymore because its easy to sacrifice too much for it. This is about finding balance between a decent penetration value and other stats.

Example:

https://imgur.com/fxVhSZu
^ 48k with Shadow (not capped penetration, about 3.5k away from 18.2k)

https://imgur.com/kjzhotC
^ 47k with the Lover (capped penetration, 18.2k)

If you have a Nirnhoned vMA bow it will get your dps up even more. Poison injection uses front bar critical chance, but back bar Base stats. So it is Nirn/Sharpened back bar, then precise.

bebynnag · July 2017

acw37162 wrote: »

Twice Born Star is going to be very good but not in the traditional sense of shadow thief.

More likely shadow - lover or weapon/spell damage - lover with Precise, Nirn, or sharp

Or

Thief - Lover, shadow - lover, or magica/stamina regen - lover with sharpened

Lots of different ways to get similar results depending on what weapon drops or pieces you have.

The lover stone is going to be very important next patch because aromor values didn't go down but penetration values so how you make up for the loss of penetration is going to be very valueable

yep this^^