Can anyone please tell me will our dps get nerfed or meta just got shifted?

lauykanson · July 2017

Hi guys, I dont have PTS so I will be grateful if someone can tell me with the coming patch is our dps nerfed with all these changes or we just embracing another meta shift? I am tired of seeing huge changes patch after patch, not giving up on this game tho just wanna know the truth if someone is kind enough to share some data, thanks.

WhiteMage · July 2017

It's the first day. I doubt people have had a chance to collect the necessary data, let alone synthesize it.

Other than that, I think your mindset is wrong. If you don't want change in your game, you shouldn't be playing an MMO. They change all the time. Change is not inherently good nor evil. Change brings you new content to keep you interested, along with bug fixes and rebalancing. The whole end-goal is to make it more fun to play. By and large these changes to combat were necessary and should be celebrated. IMO it is the single biggest step toward general balance in the nearly 2 years I've played. A big thumbs up to Wrobel.

Sharpened was the only relevant weapon trait (and because of sharpened, defending in PvP) and a combination of RNG and economics drove the number of these weapons in any guild store to a very low number with very high prices. And that's only for the BoE sets. It was a terrible mess that theory crafters latched onto when they developed the "meta," and not for any other reason than it was the best option with no peer. Now, we can actually make a choice and not have to grind up a sharpened BSW Inferno staff that for all intents and purposes doesn't even exist in the first place.

Turelus · July 2017

lauykanson wrote: »

Hi guys, I dont have PTS so I will be grateful if someone can tell me with the coming patch is our dps nerfed with all these changes or we just embracing another meta shift? I am tired of seeing huge changes patch after patch, not giving up on this game tho just wanna know the truth if someone is kind enough to share some data, thanks.

The changes were made for the better of the game, as frustrating as the Sharpened change is, we should never have been in a position where one weapon trait was so good vs the others people used non-Sharpened Maelstrom weapons for research.

The meta will shift, it always does with big changes like this, however what that meta is will take a little while to come out. There are lots of theories right now (which is awesome and shows it's not too one sided) but until the real numbers people finish testing and then start publishing results no one will know the BiS for classes.

lauykanson · July 2017

WhiteMage wrote: »

It's the first day. I doubt people have had a chance to collect the necessary data, let alone synthesize it.

Other than that, I think your mindset is wrong. If you don't want change in your game, you shouldn't be playing an MMO. They change all the time. Change is not inherently good nor evil. Change brings you new content to keep you interested, along with bug fixes and rebalancing. The whole end-goal is to make it more fun to play. By and large these changes to combat were necessary and should be celebrated. IMO it is the single biggest step toward general balance in the nearly 2 years I've played. A big thumbs up to Wrobel.

Sharpened was the only relevant weapon trait (and because of sharpened, defending in PvP) and a combination of RNG and economics drove the number of these weapons in any guild store to a very low number with very high prices. And that's only for the BoE sets. It was a terrible mess that theory crafters latched onto when they developed the "meta," and not for any other reason than it was the best option with no peer. Now, we can actually make a choice and not have to grind up a sharpened BSW Inferno staff that for all intents and purposes doesn't even exist in the first place.

I don't like changes in this game that much because most of them are nerf-based, which means more people will get hurt than gaining benefit. Yes sharpen is OP compare to other traits, but could they just buff other traits up to par with sharpen which will bring diversity as well? Just like in the previous patches where they nerfed something strong but the weak ones stays weak reagrdless like many sets in this game. Changes are needed and I can overcome like I did in many past patches so I am not trying to complain the game itself is bad but would like to know if there's a meta change thats it. That being said I still don't understand the rationale behind some nerf such as ilambris or grothdarr, how is those sets even overperforming that it deserves a nerf? Proc sets are already not criting a long time ago.

Turelus · July 2017

lauykanson wrote: »

I don't like changes in this game that much because most of them are nerf-based which means more people will get hurt than gaining benefit. Yes sharpen is OP compare to other traits, but could they just buff other traits up to par with sharpen which will bring diversity as well? Just like in the previous patches where they nerfed something strong but the weak ones stays weak reagrdless like many sets in this game. Changes are needed and I can overcome like I did in many past patches so I am not trying to complain the game itself is bad but would like to know if there's a meta change thats it. That being said I still don't understand the rationale behind some nerf such as ilambris or grothdarr, how is those sets even overperforming that it deserves a nerf? Proc sets are already not criting a long time ago.

Buffing always and never nerfing is how you get power creep. You buff something to match the over performing thing, then after that the previous over performing thing is buffed to match the new one. Carry on and we'd have Sharpened Staves with 50k penetration because we didn't want to nerf anything.

Kneighbors · July 2017

WhiteMage wrote: »

It's the first day. I doubt people have had a chance to collect the necessary data, let alone synthesize it.

Other than that, I think your mindset is wrong. If you don't want change in your game, you shouldn't be playing an MMO. They change all the time. Change is not inherently good nor evil. Change brings you new content to keep you interested, along with bug fixes and rebalancing. The whole end-goal is to make it more fun to play. By and large these changes to combat were necessary and should be celebrated. IMO it is the single biggest step toward general balance in the nearly 2 years I've played. A big thumbs up to Wrobel.

Sharpened was the only relevant weapon trait (and because of sharpened, defending in PvP) and a combination of RNG and economics drove the number of these weapons in any guild store to a very low number with very high prices. And that's only for the BoE sets. It was a terrible mess that theory crafters latched onto when they developed the "meta," and not for any other reason than it was the best option with no peer. Now, we can actually make a choice and not have to grind up a sharpened BSW Inferno staff that for all intents and purposes doesn't even exist in the first place.

I actually liked the concept of one trait being stronger than the other. Honestly, I believe this is the correct way, it's healthy for replayability of the game because you won't just "Oh, sharpened is ok, precise is ok, infused is allright" etc. You want to go for the top, you want the very specific trait. People played 100's of times same dungeon\trial only to get the desired trait. And yes, the game rewarding them by being stronger then other players. Dedication = reward.

Now what would be good about equaling all the traits? Or what is the point of changing the best trait? To make same people go and farm 100 times more for another trait now?

So yes, I agree traits needed a buff and it will work out good for variance, but pulling down current metas for this matter? I'm against it.

The only thing it did good is for some speculators running around buying all the Precise staves to sell them for profit after patch kicks in.

lauykanson · July 2017

Turelus wrote: »

lauykanson wrote: »

I don't like changes in this game that much because most of them are nerf-based which means more people will get hurt than gaining benefit. Yes sharpen is OP compare to other traits, but could they just buff other traits up to par with sharpen which will bring diversity as well? Just like in the previous patches where they nerfed something strong but the weak ones stays weak reagrdless like many sets in this game. Changes are needed and I can overcome like I did in many past patches so I am not trying to complain the game itself is bad but would like to know if there's a meta change thats it. That being said I still don't understand the rationale behind some nerf such as ilambris or grothdarr, how is those sets even overperforming that it deserves a nerf? Proc sets are already not criting a long time ago.

Buffing always and never nerfing is how you get power creep. You buff something to match the over performing thing, then after that the previous over performing thing is buffed to match the new one. Carry on and we'd have Sharpened Staves with 50k penetration because we didn't want to nerf anything.

I know what you mean, but power creep is hardly a thing since the sustain nerf in morrowind, and it only comes from top raiders in top guilds. Yes farming will be more friendly now but I'm not sure whether this patch will be another one forcing top players to shift build and new or inexperienced players just get hurt without knowing what to do...honestly hope its not but can't say much right now until more test results are released...we'll see

WhiteMage · July 2017

The problem with just buffing things is, as this persists, you end up with massive power creep, to the point where a single player can solo group content (we have that) or a well-geared player can sneeze on a newbie and they die (we have that too). Balance means so many different things but all of them have to keep some kind of balance with each other. Players' damage must keep pace with both players' healing, health, and mitigation, which in turn must keep pace with NPC damage, whose health/healing must keep pace with players' damage. In order to maintain that ideal balance when one thing was tuned to be too high, you'd have to increase all the others as well. This is doable, if very inefficient, but we don't see that in the game because ZOS is (rightfully so) very slow to adjust dungeon NPCs and leaves player health pools almost untouched for even the longest periods (this coming patch is actually a rare exception. Health set bonuses are getting increased; though it is small and not a universal health adjustment, it deserves a mention.)

Everyone loves buffs, but in a good, balanced game, any and all buffs you get are illusions. You could actually see a part of this in NPC health pools before everyone was level scaled. NPCs would start with the same health pools as players, but as our damage increased (and eclipsed theirs) their health increased and eclipsed ours. It's just an illusion, but people like to see larger numbers.

So ya, nerfs hurt, but they are a very good use of resources.

Turelus · July 2017

lauykanson wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

lauykanson wrote: »

I don't like changes in this game that much because most of them are nerf-based which means more people will get hurt than gaining benefit. Yes sharpen is OP compare to other traits, but could they just buff other traits up to par with sharpen which will bring diversity as well? Just like in the previous patches where they nerfed something strong but the weak ones stays weak reagrdless like many sets in this game. Changes are needed and I can overcome like I did in many past patches so I am not trying to complain the game itself is bad but would like to know if there's a meta change thats it. That being said I still don't understand the rationale behind some nerf such as ilambris or grothdarr, how is those sets even overperforming that it deserves a nerf? Proc sets are already not criting a long time ago.

Buffing always and never nerfing is how you get power creep. You buff something to match the over performing thing, then after that the previous over performing thing is buffed to match the new one. Carry on and we'd have Sharpened Staves with 50k penetration because we didn't want to nerf anything.

I know what you mean, but power creep is hardly a thing since the sustain nerf in morrowind, and it only comes from top raiders in top guilds. Yes farming will be more friendly now but I'm not sure whether this patch will be another one forcing top players to shift build and new or inexperienced players just get hurt without knowing what to do...honestly hope its not but can't say much right now until more test results are released...we'll see

Power creep is always a thing and it's always going to effect everyone.
We'll see it first with the top guilds because they'll be the ones switching and sharing the new metas but if we only ever buff then we all eventually will reach a point where player skill is irrelevent because the gear power will just ROFL-stomp enemies.

That or ZOS has to buff enemies again which just hurts new players who don't understand or play the meta.

nerfing things down and balancing the game to be more even across the board means that more players have a chance to compete without spending hours farming perfect gear. It sucks when something you've worked for is nerfed, but for the health of the game it's a good thing in the long run.

Flaminir · July 2017

Important to remember here, Sharpened hasn't been nerfed to uselessness.... it will likely still be number 1, or equal number 1 weapon trait at a guess.

On that basis I'd say the nerf was justified.... nobody has wasted their gold / grind time in getting sharpened weapons, its still right up there, but now there are one or two other viable combinations... this makes the RNG factor less painful which is something everybody has been asking for since a long long time ago.