The Streamer/YouTuber Problem With ESO

Takes-No-Prisoner · July 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

If your goal is to learn the basics of how to survive 1v1 and small scale battles, the way to improve is to practice dueling over and over somebody who is better than you.

No. Because, in open world PvP, anyone can enter the fight at any time. Situational awareness is a-must. Because a controlled simulated environment like a duel or a 1v1, does not allow any other opponent to jump into the frey. If you're in Cyrodiil, and doing a 1v1, if another enemy jumps into the fight, you have to learn how to deal with that. Learning to multitask battle scenarios is something that can only be done by going out and trying.

If you are having a lot of trouble fighting against a specific kind of build like magicka sorcs or NBs, etc, ask a friend who plays that class well to duel you over and over. This is how you learn how to counter those kinds of builds.

So, there are technically three things we're fighting inside of 1v1's, here lets break this down shall we?

Firstly, you are fighting the players gear.

Secondly, you are fighting the class.

Thirdly, you are fighting the players mind.

Fighting the class, in 1v1 does help put the users feet into the water, to give them an idea of how the baseline class skills works and operates. However, if we mix in gear types, procsets, and 5pc sets-- this makes the battle extremely more dynamic. Add in 1vX, and it becomes very difficult to fight against stacking odds, and their resources are not being as strained as hard as yours are.

There is no way in hell you can train for gear types. There are a ton of gear set ups that can be used. You cannot teach someone how to fight against all of them.

Some people focus on dueling to the point where they are using a completely different dueling build catered to every opponent and just trying to win tons of duels. Of course that is a certain way to enjoy the game.

Right, I've nothing against dueling as a concept. But in a game like ESO, it's not actual real 1v1 experience compared to something like Street Fighter. They are stripping themselves of that experience by not participating in PvP. It's a choice and a lifestyle some people make, which is good for them if they want only that.

But if you are serious about improving your skill at 1v1s and small fights in overland Cyrodiil, you should instead practice with your Cyrodiil build over and over, dueling a friend who is better than you are. You need to become skilled at using your CCs, burst combo and managing resources in this kind of fight, etc.

Again, this goes back to what I said about fighting gear vs fighting the class. They're two separate monsters to learn. Let's be frank about one thing though; If we hypothetically speaking, follow your notion of battling a friend to learn how to get better, you in reality only get better against fighting that players play-style. The true testament to L2P is getting into Cyrodiil and fighting different minded people both solo and in groups. Because people behave and prioritize differently depending on the situation they have landed in.

Dueling doesn't teach you theorycrafting obviously, but it's how you test and refine your PVP build ideas.

I agree, testing and getting a feel is fine. My 3 years experience in playing only Cyrodiil PvP has taught me that getting into different bad situations, and learning to get out of them is pound for pound the best EXP you can get. The point is this-- the solo and group play aspect of PvP is very different from each other. There is value to both that dueling simply cannot teach you.

VampiricByNature · July 2017

@Ch4mpTW I love this post. Not for asking them to chill on videos but for suggesting people spend time on their toons.

I always say, given time and experience with their characters, players can go one of two ways:

On one hand, people with good instincts will come to builds and creations that work well and show off months of experience and hard work. This is the scenario you fall into- creating smart and correct conclusions.

On the other hand- and I get to proclaim myself in this category- players with an ok skill level will create the most horrific, disturbing nightmare of a build you have ever seen. They will complete content with it despite it being so misguided they are essentially running up the down escalator.

I may have been a Frankenstein but knowing my character let me have an easy time swapping to meta when I wanted to do more in the game. I love the idea of spending time with your toon- not just powering your way to a set build.

DivinityDay · July 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

This reminds me of my experience in DCUO... when you'd constantly have people on the forums stating that having high 'skill points' was a requirement to be successful... and I argued the point over and over that SKILL was greater than skill points, because gaining skill points in DCUO did not require any actual skill at all... to which they always had to disagree because to them it was the high skill points that made them feel like they were better than everyone else. So when I finally joined a league after playing solo for the majority of my DCUO time, they were all shocked that I was able to not only be successful in new raids (which I had never even ran a raid before that) but I was actually beating the scores of many DPS players who had much higher skill points and better gear than I did. Without skill, even the best gear and highest CP will not guarantee success.

Well, yes and no. Yes to everything you stated if it was DCUO after weapon mastery and no if it was prior to that.

DCUO is a completely different game now than it was at launch and for a couple of years after. Skill points were everything in DC, your dps output was dependant on it.

Now and days DCUO is cash grab and a noob friendly festival. The combat mechanics have been altered to facilitate clears on end game raids for noobs and the best players are gone and have been for years. I was one of them. Hopefully ESO doesn't end like that.

MNsnowtaTy · July 2017

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

Some people are just so weak-minded they always need some Idol to adore. Even if it's just some guy playing a video game.

Example Quote : "oh no, when Deltia leaves, I leave too..."

Has nothing to do with adoration nor weak-mindedness. People are lazy. They're too lazy to put the work in to figure some of this stuff out on their own.

I don't think it's that either. I watch build videos just to learn/see what I could/can do. I work at least 40 hours a week and have other hobbies and activities. I don't have time to sit down crunch numbers and figure out exactly what I need to do to maximize my play style. Instead I can follow a build somewhat closely, and I can still make different choices on things. Once I've max level I can start to experiment with different skills/BIS.

MisterBigglesworth · July 2017

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Oh good job @Ch4mpTW now you've gone n' done it!

https://youtu.be/sWWeiELkmmo

IcyDeadPeople · July 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

If your goal is to learn the basics of how to survive 1v1 and small scale battles, the way to improve is to practice dueling over and over somebody who is better than you.

No. Because, in open world PvP, anyone can enter the fight at any time. Situational awareness is a-must. Because a controlled simulated environment like a duel or a 1v1, does not allow any other opponent to jump into the frey. If you're in Cyrodiil, and doing a 1v1, if another enemy jumps into the fight, you have to learn how to deal with that. Learning to multitask battle scenarios is something that can only be done by going out and trying.

If you are having a lot of trouble fighting against a specific kind of build like magicka sorcs or NBs, etc, ask a friend who plays that class well to duel you over and over. This is how you learn how to counter those kinds of builds.

So, there are technically three things we're fighting inside of 1v1's, here lets break this down shall we?

Firstly, you are fighting the players gear.

Secondly, you are fighting the class.

Thirdly, you are fighting the players mind.

Fighting the class, in 1v1 does help put the users feet into the water, to give them an idea of how the baseline class skills works and operates. However, if we mix in gear types, procsets, and 5pc sets-- this makes the battle extremely more dynamic. Add in 1vX, and it becomes very difficult to fight against stacking odds, and their resources are not being as strained as hard as yours are.

There is no way in hell you can train for gear types. There are a ton of gear set ups that can be used. You cannot teach someone how to fight against all of them.

Some people focus on dueling to the point where they are using a completely different dueling build catered to every opponent and just trying to win tons of duels. Of course that is a certain way to enjoy the game.

Right, I've nothing against dueling as a concept. But in a game like ESO, it's not actual real 1v1 experience compared to something like Street Fighter. They are stripping themselves of that experience by not participating in PvP. It's a choice and a lifestyle some people make, which is good for them if they want only that.

But if you are serious about improving your skill at 1v1s and small fights in overland Cyrodiil, you should instead practice with your Cyrodiil build over and over, dueling a friend who is better than you are. You need to become skilled at using your CCs, burst combo and managing resources in this kind of fight, etc.

Again, this goes back to what I said about fighting gear vs fighting the class. They're two separate monsters to learn. Let's be frank about one thing though; If we hypothetically speaking, follow your notion of battling a friend to learn how to get better, you in reality only get better against fighting that players play-style. The true testament to L2P is getting into Cyrodiil and fighting different minded people both solo and in groups. Because people behave and prioritize differently depending on the situation they have landed in.

Dueling doesn't teach you theorycrafting obviously, but it's how you test and refine your PVP build ideas.

I agree, testing and getting a feel is fine. My 3 years experience in playing only Cyrodiil PvP has taught me that getting into different bad situations, and learning to get out of them is pound for pound the best EXP you can get. The point is this-- the solo and group play aspect of PvP is very different from each other. There is value to both that dueling simply cannot teach you.

There are other ways to do it, but spending a lot of time dueling over and over is the more efficient way to improve at 1v1 and small scale fights.

Run around Cyrodiil, get into 10 or 20 fights and you can also improve over time, but through dueling you improve much faster, especially if you are a beginner trying to learn the basics or if you have trouble fighting specific builds.

If you have specific trouble vs heavy armor proc set stam NB for example, or mag DK, etc, fight a friend who is skilled with this kind of build over and over. Your friends want to see you improve, and some will take time to coach you on what you are doing wrong, or what is a good way to counter X or Y etc.

In my case I had a tough time fighting mag sorcs sometime back during 1.4 or 1.5 and Zergbad (fellow member of Legend dueling guild back then) took a lot of time to help me, dueling me on his sorc like 200 or 300 times, over and over one weekend. It took a long time, but with his patient coaching after dying so many times finally I managed to kill him.

Later after returning from a year hiatus, I was suddenly getting melted by stam builds using combos like crit rush into dizzying swing/dawnbreaker/execute. Dueled a couple friends over and over who played this type of build on stam sorc and stam DK and after tons of practice I got a lot better at countering this type of build. Went from them killing me 100% of the time to winning about half our duels.

First, if you are beginner at PVP or learning a new class, dueling teaches you how to become skilled with the basics of your build, keeping opponent CC'd, timing your burst combo and managing your resources. Also, you want to always be dueling people who are better than you. If you are killing them easily, you are not learning anything.

Then, if you are skilled but have trouble fighting some specific kind of build, get a friend who runs that build to help you practice over and over.

O_LYKOS · July 2017

Trouble is, there's an awful lot to learn in this game and the information you learn along the way can be very overwhelming.

I used to find Deltias build videos were new player friendly. He'd explain his gear, his bars and explain when and why hes using them. He'd also give a lot of options of alternative gear and explain the bonuses, what bonuses you should look for a why. Alcast does the same but from a Vet trials perspective. He's an end game player and that's pretty much what his videos are focussed on. Which he does very well might I add.

Problem comes when newer players or less knowledgeable players watch these end game build videos and solely focus on them. Players that aren't even ready to do normal trials let alone vet trials. Imo unless you're doing vet trials (and probably the dlc vet dungeons) you can wear whatever sets you like and make it through. In the long run it comes down to the player.

Blobsky · July 2017

To be fair, this is pretty generalised - as a streamer and youtubre I tell people to play what they enjoy rather than be told something is best

Danksta · July 2017

This seems more of an issue of people being sheep than an issue with YouTubers/streamers sharing their builds.

Destyran · July 2017

I see so many gank blades activate innerlight before attacking and their arms dont glow. Makes me hate my faction a lil more every time i see this lmao

BrightOblivion · July 2017

Been perusing this thread, and I figured I'd add my $0.02.

I'm working on my second month playing this game, which has some mechanics and many skills that aren't like any that I've played. In those almost two months, I've only really had experience with petsorc builds, in part because one of the places where I went to look for help make use (and sense) of all of these craptons of skills I have to choose from, in order to maximize my limited skillpoint pool, mentioned a clannfear who can help tank damage (great for a kinda squishy fledgeling dps), help deal a bit of damage, and whose active is a pretty nice heal. Now that I'm able to survive better on my own, I've changed it to the volatile familiar, because he does more damage. I do have necro (because I could afford it, enjoy the increased magicka, and in small part because so many other people are recommending it), and am, at present, using -most- of Alcast's "if-you-don't-have-all-the-stuff-to-make-it-work" build. I also watched his video on it, listened to his reasoning behind it, watched the rotations, and found the information (at least to my admittedly non-expert knowledge) sound. Is my rotation remotely as good as his is? Not really, no. But I'm getting better. I'm still wrapping my head around the animation canceling thing (putting what one reads and sees in videos into practice in a fight where the boss is running everywhere and it seems like the entire ground is covered in red circles of stupid can be challenging), but I'm trying to get better.

I do not have the time, knowledge, and experience to test every skill, or the RNG to test every single piece of equipment to find out what's best, what will get me there, what's not worth my time, and what fits my playstyle- particularly when I'm not even sure part of the time what that playstyle is. If someone's already done that research, posted their findings, and explained it in a way that I can understand, that's awesome, and it doesn't make their conclusions any less valid. Do I expect to be the best of the best that ever was, or even win duels, just because I'm using their build? No. All I want to do is get from point A to point B, and be able to complete content without being raged at, kicked, and flayed alive on the forums. Looking at the builds and what other people have already found is a step toward that. It isn't the only step, and it isn't the final step, but it's a step, and it seems to be in the right direction. You still need to test it out for yourself, figure out how it goes together, and have some understanding of -why- they're doing what they're doing, but it's probably better than cobbling together a build by means of a random number generator or having no build at all.

People have made a few car analogies, so I'll make my own. Does everyone grouse at and decry as lazy everyone who buys their car at the lot instead of building it themselves from scratch? For most people, getting to their destination (even if it's somewhat off the beaten path) reliably and in a cost-effective manner is enough. It's certainly nice if they know something about what's under the hood in case something goes wrong or they need to change something, and they should probably know how to drive the car they have. But it isn't necessary for them to become a self-taught certified auto-technician and build their own car from scratch just to travel on the roadway. Will they outpace a professional racecar driver who's had a say in everything that went into his car and been racing since he could sit in a seat and push pedals down? No, but they should be able to reach their destination on-time and mostly unharmed.

And as others have pointed out, at least those who are- even blindly- using so-called "meta builds" aren't just spamming light and heavy attacks and just using snipe every now and then. Which would you prefer?

Luigi_Vampa · July 2017

This isn't a streamer problem. Without build guides to tell these bad players what to wear, they would still be bad players. They would just now be bad players in awful gear.

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

Destyran wrote: »

I see so many gank blades activate innerlight before attacking and their arms dont glow. Makes me hate my faction a lil more every time i see this lmao

Lol. Bruh.

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Stopped reading at Selene and Viper--this combo is strictly for PvP, and it is literally all the StamNightblade has to keep himself alive out in the wilds. The guy looking for Selene / Viper picks it up because he wants the easy way of getting kills and I don't blame him. Cause the other method is non-proc StamNB which is hard as ball sacks to play in the current meta without gimping yourself.

It's not dumb that people seek out proc sets, its smart if they intend to keep themselves alive.

I play a non proc gankblade. I found a proc blade trying to gank my buddy. I 1-shotted him with a 22.5k lethal arrow crit

I love my bow

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Stopped reading at Selene and Viper--this combo is strictly for PvP, and it is literally all the StamNightblade has to keep himself alive out in the wilds. The guy looking for Selene / Viper picks it up because he wants the easy way of getting kills and I don't blame him. Cause the other method is non-proc StamNB which is hard as ball sacks to play in the current meta without gimping yourself.

It's not dumb that people seek out proc sets, its smart if they intend to keep themselves alive.

I play a non proc gankblade. I found a proc blade trying to gank my buddy. I 1-shotted him with a 22.5k lethal arrow crit
I love my bow

Nb snipers have a special place in hell reserved for them.

Teridaxus · July 2017

Well it's a vicious cycle.
Their viewership and many if not most want to be spoon feed so you have to blame both.

I'm normally spend my time in glenumbra and i notice with every month more and more people got 0 interest in the elder scrolls part. They ask for the fastest way to level up, whats the meta ( only dks and maybe warden are allowed to tank, use those trial dropped sets, use an altmer for magicka dps or uninstall eso ) and dismiss any attempt to atleast try the quests or trying to learn the skills by using it and form an own opnion.
They also ask the most easist questions which a google research, playing longer than 5 minutes could easily reveal or even just using your brain for a second ( where are wood nodes? dunno, did you searched near trees already... )

Seriously i just want to strangle a person who mentions skyreach at a newbie who bought the game just today especially if said newbie didn't even mentioned that he wants to powerlevel and try the quests atleast.

Aeladiir · July 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I usually don't like your posts, I find them uninformed, biased, attention-seeking and full of ignorance. I love this one, though.

His post is still uninformed, biased, attention-seeking and full of ignorance, though. He jumps to conclusions, he is clearly biased against people who simply don't want to spend hours looking for an effective build and seek help with their online comrades, and completely ignorant to that fact. He is a sad person overall, and a cancer to this forum, so he is always seeking for attention. Just like in OP.

Aeladiir · July 2017

So, here, Ch4mp. Take my attention.

Akrasjel · July 2017

Good stuff

KingYogi415 · July 2017

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Stopped reading at Selene and Viper--this combo is strictly for PvP, and it is literally all the StamNightblade has to keep himself alive out in the wilds. The guy looking for Selene / Viper picks it up because he wants the easy way of getting kills and I don't blame him. Cause the other method is non-proc StamNB which is hard as ball sacks to play in the current meta without gimping yourself.

It's not dumb that people seek out proc sets, its smart if they intend to keep themselves alive.

I play a non proc gankblade. I found a proc blade trying to gank my buddy. I 1-shotted him with a 22.5k lethal arrow crit
I love my bow

So a marksman snipe build is somehow more honorable then a procblade!

Interesting...

Jitterbug · July 2017

nimander99 wrote: »

Hey @Ch4mpTW should I only go for Netch's Touch or Necropotence for my Sorc?

Double 5 pc. necro!

Linaleah · July 2017

here's a perspective. vast majority of players, especially newer players are not swimming in near unlimited gold to keep respeccing and figuring things out. they are also not swimming in maxed out skills. it takes a LONG time to get to the point where you can play around with abilities and figure out which you like best. it takes a long time just to LEVEL abilities. especially if your preference is doing quests and not grinding like mad, usually in a group so it doesn't even matter so much that your skill bars are a mishmash of random looking skills you are trying to level up. newer player/casual player just wants to be able to relax and enjoy the game and be able to not die to quest bosses, to level the skills that will actualy be useful to them in a long run.

so they look for builds. they don't know the game well enough to create their own. they cannot afford to chose the skills that will end up not being useful, only to have to respec and start from scratch. they cannot afford to mess around with multiple armor sets. they NEED help with builds. believe it or not? animation canceling etc is NOT the basics. its the opposite. before you even begin animation canceling, weaving , etc, you need to know what it is you are going to be canceling animations for.

pod88kk · July 2017

I'd good for us business men though because we go and farm the Meta gear & charge through the roof for it because players think it'll finally make them 'git gud' at eso

redshirt_49 · July 2017

Alcast is a good place to get some ideas for the build that might work for you but it's not and should not be treated as a copy-paste method for building your character.

Here's how I make my builds :

Step 1 ) Pick a class
Step 2 ) Pick your role
Step 3 ) What weapons? I wanted to see how well a StamWarden DD would do with a bow-only setup
Step 4 ) Check to see if such builds already exist and how you might combine skills and CPs together (That is to say, get an idea of who is using what and why and see if it suits your playstyle, I ended up going for a poison & DoT build that I mostly worked out myself)
Step 4 ) Get an idea of what sets and bonuses might work best for you, generally I start with the non-dungeon or trial sets to get an idea of what's effective and what isn't, chances are you'll run into issues that you might not have expected, whether it's insufficient sustain, critical or lower DPS than you'd expected.
Step 5 ) Test it, see what combination of skills works in PvE, what works in PvP (prebuilt builds you got off a website generally don't tell you that their selection of skills is not a MUST DO, if you feel a particular morph or ability is working better for your rotations then by all means use that instead. You're just wasting skillbar space by slotting a skill you don't actually use a lot. If you encounter issues go back to step 4 and repeat until you're satisfied. See, there's no such thing as a bad skill (except Mist Form) and playing around with stuff that sounds interesting can lead to unexpected discoveries.

imulsi0n · July 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

A lot of the posts here have a very holier-than-thou feel to them. Bottom line is that I'd rather have a new player who is "playing the meta" because they learned by watching Alcast or Deltia over somebody just fiddling around with it on their own spamming light and heavy attacks.

I'm still relatively new myself, but I came from a competitive raiding guild in another MMO, so I know that to some extent these resources are valuable and necessary, but to play around with them until I find something that compromises between the perfect, optimal rotation and what I'm actually able to do. However, most new players for this game are nothing like that. Many do not even have MMO backgrounds and do not understand the importance of even using abilities consistently. In typical MMO fashion, the game does a poor job of emphasizing what is important to be successful for new players. At least the meta guides can act as a starting point, with the hopes that new players will, over time, develop their own playstyle around them.

TL; DR people need to get off their high horses, better to have a new player / casual with a build they learned from youtube doing 10k than a new player with 0 information doing 2k because let's be real, casual MMO players are not the type to do their own in-depth analysis of these sorts of things. We shouldn't crucify them for that, or try to exclude them from the game.

This right here is the real problem. I believe gilliamtherouge said it himself in his morrowind patch video that zenimax does nothing to help new players learn the mechanics of the game. He even gives an example of a in game tip they give you that is competely wrong. Ive played this game since pc beta on and off and still have no idea how plenty of the mechanics work in the game. Not everyone has that sort of time to learn the game with what is given.

Vrienda · July 2017

There's such a huge skill gap between players. It's no wonder many of us (Yes, us. I'm guilty of hunting for guides to get better at the game too) seek to see how the other people whoop our ass. Whether it's at DPS or in PvP.

To this day I still don't understand how you folk do it. How do you oneshot me in PvP? How do you pull more than 15K DPS? The game doesn't make these things clear and, with animation cancelling and what-not, the gaps between skilled, less skilled and noob players becomes a gaping chasm.

The guides helped me a lot. I don't run a mag/stam hybrid build anymore for instance (Though I want to at times...). But I still don't believe I'll ever do a Veteran Trial, or the DLC Veteran Dungeons, or become Emperor. And that sucks, because it feels like I'm cut off from a lot of content because I can't get the hang of animation cancling or the right build.

itehache · July 2017

I agree.

I always find a guide/build just so I have a basic guide but then I create my build. I never follow anything I see online as the bible because what I like the most about this game is that even meta can be "not meta" if you don't know what you are doing, as you mention it.