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The Streamer/YouTuber Problem With ESO
Ch4mpTW
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Y'all have to seriously chill on making these videos telling people that this and that build is the best, and how they should strictly do this and that. And completely disregard all other builds.
I'm a min-maxer myself, and honestly it's getting ridiculous seeing these new players talking about things that they don't even understand. But, it's getting real old having new players come up to me and asking me whether or not they should only go for Netch's Touch or Necropotence for their Sorcerers. Nightblades asking asking if they can have someone help farm Selene and Viper for them, because apparently that's all that exists for Nightblades. And deadass, it's getting on my nerves.
These players are essentially getting brainwashed, and basically just keeping the cycle going of parroting what they hear this and that 1 say on a damn video. Meanwhile they have no idea how to: Animation cancel, weave properly, how their builds work, the mechanics of dungeons and trials, etc. But yet, they are so worried about having what's "meta". So I try to tell them to go and learn their fundamentals and basics first, and learn things like champion point "jump points". And they get mad. They catch an attitude, and say I'm elitist because I'm holding them back from being successful. And that's exactly the mentality that a lot of these new players are developing. That you need this and that gear to be successful in PvE and PvP, and while that may be true to a certain extent — it's not the FULL truth. Not even half of the truth.
I had a duel a few minutes ago against a DK using: Kags, Skoria, And Sun. Basically the same as my DK (except I use Seducer), and he got steamrolled. He was CP630 just like me, and we used pretty much the same damn skills. And that boy got merked. Why did he get merked? Because he was using something he had no clue about. And when I picked his brain a bit, found out that he was using what he was using because his favorite streamer/YouTuber told him it was the meta for DK's. that his build dominates everything, and how he should be able to easily crush anyone in a fight. That DK got his ass whooped by everyone in town. And essentially ended up leaving (I guess out of embarrassment). And that made me sad, because you cats that are making these videos aren't telling these players that there are better options out there for new people to certain builds. That there are other viable setups. But no. You make a video, or stream saying this is the meta. This is what works, and barely explain why it works. You don't explain the mechanics of how it all comes together. And you're essentially breeding these zombie players, who don't know squat about squat. And get embarrassed when they duel someone who uses the same build as them (to a degree).
Do you know how annoying it is to have someone come-up to me, and ask me if I'm using the same pet build that @Alcast runs? And that's no disrespect to that man, as he has helped tons of people understand things. And helped tons of people clear content. He's a brilliant person, and I hope he continues doing what he's doing. I'm not knocking him for that. But, it's just incredibly annoying to have people automatically assume that because I'm running a pet build that I got it from another person. No. I didn't. I've been using pets as far back as I can remember. I was using pets to beat Maelstrom, when the vast majority of other Sorcs were following @Deltia builds, and running Molag Kena and 2 swords. I was using Necropotence, before it even was scaled up to VR16 or CP160 as it's now known as. And it's just so damn irritating. And those who have been apart of these forums know that about me. I've ALWAYS been a PetSorc. Always. I have videos as far back as May 2016 of me using pets in Maelstrom, though I've always used pets even before then.
Old video of me using pets in Maelstrom
https://youtu.be/XwXc_wZhP20
So please. I know you want to have your previous viewers and subscribers hit that precious like button, and be apart of your "notification squad". But, at least make it clear that there are other routes to take for success. And that it's MORE IMPORTANT TO LEARN HOW A CLASS WORKS ENTIRELY, than to just chase after "high-end gear".
It's not always about the Ferrari, but the driver whipping the Ferrari. And that driver's knowledge of the car, and knowledge about driving overall
Edited by Ch4mpTW on July 7, 2017 7:00AM I'm a min-maxer myself, and honestly it's getting ridiculous seeing these new players talking about things that they don't even understand. But, it's getting real old having new players come up to me and asking me whether or not they should only go for Netch's Touch or Necropotence for their Sorcerers. Nightblades asking asking if they can have someone help farm Selene and Viper for them, because apparently that's all that exists for Nightblades. And deadass, it's getting on my nerves.
These players are essentially getting brainwashed, and basically just keeping the cycle going of parroting what they hear this and that 1 say on a damn video. Meanwhile they have no idea how to: Animation cancel, weave properly, how their builds work, the mechanics of dungeons and trials, etc. But yet, they are so worried about having what's "meta". So I try to tell them to go and learn their fundamentals and basics first, and learn things like champion point "jump points". And they get mad. They catch an attitude, and say I'm elitist because I'm holding them back from being successful. And that's exactly the mentality that a lot of these new players are developing. That you need this and that gear to be successful in PvE and PvP, and while that may be true to a certain extent — it's not the FULL truth. Not even half of the truth.
I had a duel a few minutes ago against a DK using: Kags, Skoria, And Sun. Basically the same as my DK (except I use Seducer), and he got steamrolled. He was CP630 just like me, and we used pretty much the same damn skills. And that boy got merked. Why did he get merked? Because he was using something he had no clue about. And when I picked his brain a bit, found out that he was using what he was using because his favorite streamer/YouTuber told him it was the meta for DK's. that his build dominates everything, and how he should be able to easily crush anyone in a fight. That DK got his ass whooped by everyone in town. And essentially ended up leaving (I guess out of embarrassment). And that made me sad, because you cats that are making these videos aren't telling these players that there are better options out there for new people to certain builds. That there are other viable setups. But no. You make a video, or stream saying this is the meta. This is what works, and barely explain why it works. You don't explain the mechanics of how it all comes together. And you're essentially breeding these zombie players, who don't know squat about squat. And get embarrassed when they duel someone who uses the same build as them (to a degree).
Do you know how annoying it is to have someone come-up to me, and ask me if I'm using the same pet build that @Alcast runs? And that's no disrespect to that man, as he has helped tons of people understand things. And helped tons of people clear content. He's a brilliant person, and I hope he continues doing what he's doing. I'm not knocking him for that. But, it's just incredibly annoying to have people automatically assume that because I'm running a pet build that I got it from another person. No. I didn't. I've been using pets as far back as I can remember. I was using pets to beat Maelstrom, when the vast majority of other Sorcs were following @Deltia builds, and running Molag Kena and 2 swords. I was using Necropotence, before it even was scaled up to VR16 or CP160 as it's now known as. And it's just so damn irritating. And those who have been apart of these forums know that about me. I've ALWAYS been a PetSorc. Always. I have videos as far back as May 2016 of me using pets in Maelstrom, though I've always used pets even before then.
Old video of me using pets in Maelstrom
https://youtu.be/XwXc_wZhP20So please. I know you want to have your previous viewers and subscribers hit that precious like button, and be apart of your "notification squad". But, at least make it clear that there are other routes to take for success. And that it's MORE IMPORTANT TO LEARN HOW A CLASS WORKS ENTIRELY, than to just chase after "high-end gear".
It's not always about the Ferrari, but the driver whipping the Ferrari. And that driver's knowledge of the car, and knowledge about driving overall
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Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭I usually don't like your posts, I find them uninformed, biased, attention-seeking and full of ignorance. I love this one, though.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy30 -
OutLaw_Nynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All i got from this is that you're unhappy that you aren't unique anymore because people use pets????25 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »All i got from this is that you're unhappy that you aren't unique anymore because people use pets????
Not even close, comrade... Not even close. 15 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pretty much everything you said.
Some of the YouTube/Streamers (like Alcast) have made a point of saying "this is the best DPS mathematically, but it means nothing without skill or your ability".
The thing is though whatever is flavour of the month people will see and use, because there are many who believe that gear/skills make the game and forget they need player skill.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."12 -
Jitterbug✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Basically all builds have all gear interchangable and all skills are flex. The sooner people realize that the better. Build videos are essentially a lie.9 -
NukeAllTheThings✭✭✭✭✭Since you mentioned Alcast and Deltia (Gilliam by default now) you should know that they always have alternative builds to go along with the BiS recommendations. They also state that certain gear performs better/worse in different situations and different play styles. I don't blame them for doing what they do because they do provide a ton of information. People posting builds aren't the problem. It is the half trained monkey's who think that certain gear is an auto win button and they will magically become great at the game.
ESO is no different than any other game ever released. Everybody wants to be great, very few want to put the work in. Timmy No Thumbs always thinks he would be the best to ever play the game if he just had the same gear as the guy at the top of the leaderboard.
If you want to educate these people then they might benefit from some of @Gilliamtherogue 's latest videos comparing some of the better gear sets for different classes."it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days." - Matt Firor11 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People just want to play the game.. they don't want to learn a book about how everything works first.
Any MMO that drowns people in data and maths and is terrible for the average gamer.
Youtubers/streamers are out there helping people get into the game, to find thier place and improve thier play so they can finish the content. most players don't care about leader boards but they don't like to fail.
It matters 0 if you understand what you are doing at all, the game is about having fun not about knowing the inside outs of the game.
I would argue that being strict on certain builds is probably a bad thing, as that can dishearten players who just don't have the gold or time to grind gear. I have never run a trial for example...13 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pretty much everything you said.
Some of the YouTube/Streamers (like Alcast) have made a point of saying "this is the best DPS mathematically, but it means nothing without skill or your ability".
The thing is though whatever is flavour of the month people will see and use, because there are many who believe that gear/skills make the game and forget they need player skill.
@Turelus Exactly! And that's why I showed Alcast some love. Because he actually explains it, and makes that point very clear in his videos. He's not like many and most streamers that just make a build, mention a few things here and there, and then leave it as is. And in my opinion, he and those like him deserves respect and love. Because they aren't breeding drones. Even if it does annoy me when I get asked if I'm running his builds. I can't knock him and hate on him. All he's doing is trying to help people do good.6 -
Titansteele✭✭✭✭✭Have in insightful
+1
A little bit of me dies inside every time a new player shows up on CP5 citing "meta" and asking for help to farm a set. It would be nice if they had figured out that there is no point in that at all. When they are told that they fly off the handle on you like you have just wiped your arse with their kitten.
Walk before you try to run little kiddies.Guild Leader of The Twelve Knights, AD PVE, PVP and Trading Guild on the EU Mega Server
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger"5 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why do you keep mentioning Ferrari ? They haven't won a Le Mans in like forever .
Edited by Rohamad_Ali on July 7, 2017 7:40AM7 -
Slack✭✭✭✭✭Some people are just so weak-minded they always need some Idol to adore. Even if it's just some guy playing a video game.
Example Quote : "oh no, when Deltia leaves, I leave too..."Edited by Slack on July 7, 2017 8:05AMPC EU
Betty Breeze - Magwarden
Hunts S'hitblades - Stamplar
Aschavi - Magplar8 -
Shad0wfire99✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some people are just so weak-minded they always need some Idol to adore. Even if it's just some guy playing a video game.
Example Quote : "oh no, when Deltia leaves, I leave too..."
Has nothing to do with adoration nor weak-mindedness. People are lazy. They're too lazy to put the work in to figure some of this stuff out on their own.
XBox NA6 -
Jack_Handey✭✭✭Shhh you're gonna mess up our guild trader salesIf trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.5 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree completely, but at the same time most of the streamers I choose to watch say many times that this is just the build they find best or that's by the numbers but to go and do what works for you. I think it's just that most people won't or don't have the time to. It took me a long time playing to start making my own effective builds. In PvE I still run my dps using alcasts venom build, because 1) I don't have the time to run all he numbers for best dps in pve and 2) there are a limited number of builds that get the best results in pve. In pvp I do run my own builds based on what I need but mostly because pvp is much more about personal preference and allows for a lot of successful options compared to pve. But even that's taken a lot of time to get used to and most people just wanna gear up and play. It is what it is, always gonna be people who expect to run a certain spec and melt other players. And streaming is a business, gotta sell it. No streamers are gonna do well by saying this build won't work for ya.1 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭There will always be people that go to youtube, search for the "win combo", try it, fail, and ragequit.
There is no help for them, they simply don't have the will to learn.
What they want is an easy-mode cheat button which doesn't exist in MMOs.
Those people are better off returning to GTA3.3 -
Dont even have a problem with that/those people. My problem with it comes in when those people judge/act forcibly against people not using one of the builds their streamer recommends.
All for free buildchoices hereFeralclaw - EU - AD
Khajit Warden - Werewolf Warden
Also own:
lvl 50 Templar PvP Healer (Dunmer)
2 lvl 50 Magicka Staff / Stamina / Healer Nightblade's (Khajit/Dunmer)
lvl 50 Magicka Sorcerer (Dunmer)7 -
Crowzer✭✭✭Played ESO since beta (with very long breaks, ofc) but never watched any ESO related videos on Youtube.Edited by Crowzer on July 7, 2017 8:23AM5 -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭You are totally free to make your own guides, people like having references available for these sorts of things and others like making them...If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].4 -
aaisoaho✭✭✭✭✭Well said.
I'm not a number cruncher - I base my characters on trial'n'error and try sets people thinks is BiS. (My stam sorc uses spriggan's, Hundings and Veli, because I seem to get most ourt of her using those sets and because I don't have VO) Alcast has given the best tips so far for me trough his videos.
I don't think this is the case of brainwashing - I think it has something to do with the group/herd mentality. This is not the only game where this copypasting happening. For example, in Hearthstone, you see a lot of people running the exact same thing as the popular youtubers, but with less skills - leading to worse decisions and more losses.
Maybe it's about the reputation of the Ferrari, not about the Ferrari itself.4 -
KingYogi415✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭When Johny-started-last-week hits cp 160, looking up a real guide means he won't stay a scrub forever.
Pulling 20k dps is not easy for a new player, but they sure can q for vet dungeons easily. Everytime I see a vet 300+ who only knows how to spam snipe in my COA2 run I throw up a little...
Having good gear is a just a stepping stone to not being a potato. The skill will come with practice.Edited by KingYogi415 on July 7, 2017 9:06AM3 -
DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bruh anyone can stream and YT these days. Sadly it's what kids aspire to be these days. Live for the gram innit. Reality is they are just copying people like alcast and woeler. Nothing original comes from these new scrubs.PC Master Race
1001CP
8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
Master Angler
Dro-M'artha Destroyer (at last)
Tamriel Hero
Grand Overlord
Every Skyshard
Down With BOP!4 -
TheRegHD✭✭Patience is a huge deal in an MMO, and unfortunately many people lack it. They are looking for the most condensed information about the best builds and the fastest way to get them. If you do not take time to experience the game's mechanics and what other classes are capable of, a meta build is not going to save you.
Meta builds will always be there, but I firmly believe that they disproportionately restrain people's creativity in terms of builds. We want the best, and streamers and youtubers are rapidly supplying us with the best. But, the best build is definitely not always the most fun or even efficient one, depending on the player.
Stepping out of one's comfort zone is the best one can do to improve in any quasi-competitive game -- in that, finding a build that works for you is much more efficient than copy-pasting someone else's.2 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭If anyone think that a build-video is the one truth / that what's being shown is the best, no questions asked and there are*no* alternatives..... You really need to re-think the way you view guides / suggestions. Actually scratch that, you need to re-think your entire life. Do you just take what people tell you works - without questioning it or asking about it? Do you never ask questions - look for other options?
There is no "Streamer/Youtuber"-problem with ESO. There's a problem with the players - that just eats whatever gets fed to them without questioning or looking for alternatives. You can't blame that on the Streamers/YouTubers. It's just people accepting/eating whatever gets fed without thinking for themselves. Which is pretty dumb.Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.7 -
MagnusBlackmane✭✭✭That's some deep stuff... however nothing new. When some ready-made solutions are presented to a person, he/she will grab it, regardless if he has an understanding of the problem this solution is for or not. Sad but true."You're trying too hard... do it at 80%, never 100%. Relax." - My sensei.
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Server: EU PC
Dracart - AD Khajiit, Currently Stamina Nightblade3 -
MarzAttakz✭✭✭✭Jack_Handey wrote: »Shhh you're gonna mess up our guild trader sales
This is what pisses me off the most ... good luck finding anything that isn't meta in most stores.
Following on with the below comment...Shad0wfire99 wrote: »Has nothing to do with adoration nor weak-mindedness. People are lazy. They're too lazy to put the work in to figure some of this stuff out on their own.
Some people are lazy I agree but I think many of you are forgetting (through no faults of your own), how overwhelming ESO is for the first couple of months. Especially if you're building multiple characters. In game information is so badly presented and most of the wiki sites are outdated.
I started playing ESO a couple of months ago, followed a few of Deltia's builds because they seemed helpful at the time. Once understanding was attained I adapted them to suit the way I played. To do so quite frankly is a chore... refer to first statement.
If I'm wanting to test something that isn't meta it involves horrendous grinding or amazing RNG luck - the guild stores simply don't have the items, and I'm limited in the amount of time I can play per day, hence my preference to purchase instead of grind.
In the long run it's simply more efficient as a newer player to follow a meta build, but I do agree with the OP.
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PC EU
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Qura Scura | Altmer | MagBlade
Lhylyth | Breton | MagPlar
Nhynyth | Khajiit | MagDK
Ghwynyth | Dunmer | MagSorc
Loots-All-Urns | Argonian | MagDen
Shades-Of-Gray | Argonian | StamDK
Or'Chastration | Orc | StamSorc
Little Miss Famished | Orc | StamCro
Fhane Sharog | Orc | StamDen
Dead Moons Rising | Khajiit | StamBlade
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The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.4 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This isn't a problem with streamers/youtubers - it not only pre-dates youtube, it pre-dates RPGs. People used to do the same with table-top war games even before DnD was invented.
As other people have said what it comes down to is people who can't or don't want to actually understand how stats work, they just want to play the game so they look for an easy solution - someone else who has taken the time to figure out what works and will just give them the end result.
It's not even exclusive to gaming. Why do you think there's entire magazines and websites dedicated to reviewing everything from PCs to phones to cars to fridges? So that people don't have to go out and do the research for themselves - they can just check out which is the best rated and get that.
Sometimes that works well for them. Sometimes it doesn't because what's best overall or what some reviewer prefers is absolutely not what's right for them.
I go the other way - I like to know what I'm buying so I actually enjoy researching the products myself (often via reviews, but I like ones that explain why various factors are important and how they reached the decision). I also always, always make my own builds in games.
Sure they may not be mathematically the best, or even functionally the best. My favourite build for Morrowind (the game, not the expansion) is terrible - it makes combat far harder than it needs to be. But I really enjoy playing it, much more so than when I'm playing something that lets me breeze through the fights.
The only downside is that I end up having to justify my choices to other people. Not just in games - people keep asking me why I still have an MP3 player and why it's not an iPod, why I have a phone they've never heard of, why I wear jeans that went out of fashion last year etc. etc. but because I've done the research I can explain it to them...if they're willing to listen which not everyone who asks is.
But you can't change them any more than they can change you. Just let them get on with it and do what you want to do.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"4 -
Axoinus✭✭✭✭✭Watching the streamers and youtubers is fine, as long as you keep it in perspective. A beginner can learn a lot of mechanics and how the game thinks if they focus on the general concepts and not the numbers and 1337 sets. I learned a lot by looking at out of date Deltia builds.Edited by Axoinus on July 7, 2017 11:21AM4 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lieblingsjunge wrote: »If anyone think that a build-video is the one truth / that what's being shown is the best, no questions asked and there are*no* alternatives..... You really need to re-think the way you view guides / suggestions. Actually scratch that, you need to re-think your entire life. Do you just take what people tell you works - without questioning it or asking about it? Do you never ask questions - look for other options?
There is no "Streamer/Youtuber"-problem with ESO. There's a problem with the players - that just eats whatever gets fed to them without questioning or looking for alternatives. You can't blame that on the Streamers/YouTubers. It's just people accepting/eating whatever gets fed without thinking for themselves. Which is pretty dumb.
That's some pretty thought-provoking and strong posting right there. I can definitely see where you are coming from, and can agree (to an extent). However, the source is still the streamers and Internet personalities. Why? Because, they are still the ones pumping out a lot of the stuff that sometimes they themselves don't even fully understand. And then having those who are completely unaware stumbling across it, becoming absorbed by it, and then parroting what it is that they heard/read.0 -
Sunburnt_Penguin✭✭✭✭✭I have the pessimistic belief that these PvP streamers/YouTubers release the build videos without explaining rotations or how to play the class/build because they just don't want people to get better. If people do get better then there's less clips of them 1vXing and that then leads to less views and income.
Edited by Sunburnt_Penguin on July 7, 2017 11:24AM2