Open letter

MarzAttakz · July 2017

Turelus wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

This is the same in any game which has competitive elements, however how you play depends on how competitive you want to be.

If you want to challenge the likes of HODOR for world firsts then yeah, you're going to min/max like crazy. If you just want to do vet trials with your guild and clear it, then you probably can actually do that with a hyrbrid build.

This is just the entire "scrub" mentality from this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Trying to make it sound like playing to win is bad and limiting ones self with rules.

Toxic vomit as usual. "The scrub". How rude. The likes of you don't need introduction. Major network cartoonists have made episodes for the likes of you.

*sigh* try reading the article, it's actually very enlightening and at no point have I called you or anyone else a scrub.
If someone reads that article and feels they fall under that then maybe they are under the article writers definition, I used to be until I read it and realised my own mistakes.

You know man, usually I love your posts, but here I'm going to disagree with you.

Yes I agree there are different types, having played in this genre for going on close to 15 years now I recognise what that article describes, it was an interesting read, but I don't think it approaches the subject from a broad enough perspective.
15 years ago I played competitively, I played to win, scrubs be damned.

10 years ago I played competitvely but no longer felt I had to prove myself, I played to win with certain groups and played to have fun with others.

5 years ago I played to my own standard, I played to have fun, scrubs or not it didn't matter

NOW I play to my own standard, I play to relax, and I place more value on tenacity, perseverance, willingness and manners.

You see, those "SCRUBS" - the ones lacking the "talent" to play competitively, hamstrung by "self-imposed" rules or just a general mindset are the people still around, the people with good attitude's, the people actually having fun doing something they enjoy.

Most of the "eL33T$" I used to play with are burnt-out joyless husks with RL complexes who drama-queen their way from game to game, challenge to challenge, proving ground to proving ground in a futile attempt at finding self-worth through playing to win.

Scrub-life didn't choose me, I choose it myself.

However I make a point of not complaining about it when others do it. It's fine to choose not to play to win and have fun (I would even encourage everyone to try that way) but if you do that you have to accept that you've made the choice and can't go around demanding things change to suit your needs or slandering others who don't limit themselves.

Agreed, I concede... status quo achieved.

Turelus · July 2017

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

This is the same in any game which has competitive elements, however how you play depends on how competitive you want to be.

If you want to challenge the likes of HODOR for world firsts then yeah, you're going to min/max like crazy. If you just want to do vet trials with your guild and clear it, then you probably can actually do that with a hyrbrid build.

This is just the entire "scrub" mentality from this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Trying to make it sound like playing to win is bad and limiting ones self with rules.

Toxic vomit as usual. "The scrub". How rude. The likes of you don't need introduction. Major network cartoonists have made episodes for the likes of you.

*sigh* try reading the article, it's actually very enlightening and at no point have I called you or anyone else a scrub.
If someone reads that article and feels they fall under that then maybe they are under the article writers definition, I used to be until I read it and realised my own mistakes.

You know man, usually I love your posts, but here I'm going to disagree with you.

Yes I agree there are different types, having played in this genre for going on close to 15 years now I recognise what that article describes, it was an interesting read, but I don't think it approaches the subject from a broad enough perspective.
15 years ago I played competitively, I played to win, scrubs be damned.

10 years ago I played competitvely but no longer felt I had to prove myself, I played to win with certain groups and played to have fun with others.

5 years ago I played to my own standard, I played to have fun, scrubs or not it didn't matter

NOW I play to my own standard, I play to relax, and I place more value on tenacity, perseverance, willingness and manners.

You see, those "SCRUBS" - the ones lacking the "talent" to play competitively, hamstrung by "self-imposed" rules or just a general mindset are the people still around, the people with good attitude's, the people actually having fun doing something they enjoy.

Most of the "eL33T$" I used to play with are burnt-out joyless husks with RL complexes who drama-queen their way from game to game, challenge to challenge, proving ground to proving ground in a futile attempt at finding self-worth through playing to win.

Scrub-life didn't choose me, I choose it myself.

However I make a point of not complaining about it when others do it. It's fine to choose not to play to win and have fun (I would even encourage everyone to try that way) but if you do that you have to accept that you've made the choice and can't go around demanding things change to suit your needs or slandering others who don't limit themselves.

Agreed, I concede... status quo achieved.

I just don't like it when I think people don't like me.

My first post was a bit abrupt though, I probably could have clarified it a bit better as not to come off as a smug elitist calling everyone scum. Still mistakes were made, we learn and move on.

MarzAttakz · July 2017

Turelus wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

This is the same in any game which has competitive elements, however how you play depends on how competitive you want to be.

If you want to challenge the likes of HODOR for world firsts then yeah, you're going to min/max like crazy. If you just want to do vet trials with your guild and clear it, then you probably can actually do that with a hyrbrid build.

This is just the entire "scrub" mentality from this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Trying to make it sound like playing to win is bad and limiting ones self with rules.

Toxic vomit as usual. "The scrub". How rude. The likes of you don't need introduction. Major network cartoonists have made episodes for the likes of you.

*sigh* try reading the article, it's actually very enlightening and at no point have I called you or anyone else a scrub.
If someone reads that article and feels they fall under that then maybe they are under the article writers definition, I used to be until I read it and realised my own mistakes.

You know man, usually I love your posts, but here I'm going to disagree with you.

Yes I agree there are different types, having played in this genre for going on close to 15 years now I recognise what that article describes, it was an interesting read, but I don't think it approaches the subject from a broad enough perspective.
15 years ago I played competitively, I played to win, scrubs be damned.

10 years ago I played competitvely but no longer felt I had to prove myself, I played to win with certain groups and played to have fun with others.

5 years ago I played to my own standard, I played to have fun, scrubs or not it didn't matter

NOW I play to my own standard, I play to relax, and I place more value on tenacity, perseverance, willingness and manners.

You see, those "SCRUBS" - the ones lacking the "talent" to play competitively, hamstrung by "self-imposed" rules or just a general mindset are the people still around, the people with good attitude's, the people actually having fun doing something they enjoy.

Most of the "eL33T$" I used to play with are burnt-out joyless husks with RL complexes who drama-queen their way from game to game, challenge to challenge, proving ground to proving ground in a futile attempt at finding self-worth through playing to win.

Scrub-life didn't choose me, I choose it myself.

However I make a point of not complaining about it when others do it. It's fine to choose not to play to win and have fun (I would even encourage everyone to try that way) but if you do that you have to accept that you've made the choice and can't go around demanding things change to suit your needs or slandering others who don't limit themselves.

Agreed, I concede... status quo achieved.

I just don't like it when I think people don't like me.

My first post was a bit abrupt though, I probably could have clarified it a bit better as not to come off as a smug elitist calling everyone scum. Still mistakes were made, we learn and move on.

You know, one post at a time, perhaps we can change the derogatory nature of the term "scrub" to something more positive... after all the inevitability of having to embrace your own inner scrubness is what elitists are frantically running away from.

Time, on the other hand, runs way faster and will catch up with you, and when it does, well, no matter what you say or do you're gonna be a scrub by someone's standard. How you deal with that cold hard fact is up to you.

Done derailing, back to work, enjoy your day!

GreenhaloX · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Chameleonas

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/348281/why-two-handed-melee-weapons-are-forgotten-and-ignored/p1

People no longer care for the fantasy concept. They just care to win.
1)They don't play with the weapon and armor they like. They copy metas.
2)They don't practice combat. They just crunch numbers, or read such researchers by others.
3)They don't stick to their playstyle through ups and downs.
4)They prefer passive damage (procs) and passive damage mitigation (Shuffle) no matter their class.
5)They embrace a flawed combat system that makes animations useless, as long as they can beat those that don't practice YET animation cancelling.
6)They would abandon their playstyle for one that works better with animation cancelling.
This is the feedback we give ZOS.

They won't make changes to promote your agile assassin, or the raging berserk warrior.
Because people want the 1shooter and the 1vXer

Wow.. so, this thread/post seems just like the right bait for trolls. I'm also confused a bit. I'm not sure who Chameleonas is, but I take it this thread is directed for that person, since you have that name right at the beginning? Anyways, surely your list of comments doesn't reflect everybody. I will you give the benefit of the doubt that when we use the word like "people" or "everybody", it is just a cliché. We don't really mean all people or reflects upon everybody literally, because it doesn't; much as this thread.

I, for one, don't take too heavily on what others think the current meta or BIS is or should be. Sure, if a lot of folks are saying such (you know.. a lot of people agreeing on something can't really be wrong; sometimes), I'll take it into consideration and give it a try. Ok, if I like it, I'll stick with it on one of my toon. If I don't like it, then it's scrapped or not BIS to me. I have 9 toons (10 previously, but waiting for ZOS/dev to fix the bug so I can get my 10th slot back), and all toons have different sets (armor/weapons/build.) It is the armor and weapon sets I find to my liking. The rest of the comments on your list also doesn't reflect on how I play on ESO either. Sure, I'll also take into consideration on what others are saying, but I play the way I like to play and what works for me.

cpuScientist · July 2017

What I've never understood about this argument is that people are saying sticking to the metas and min/maxxing or using aghast "math" is boring. They make it seem like doing any of this makes you an elitist. They shun competition and think everyone should play for fun. But newsflash playing that way IS FUN for some people. Competitiveness IS what alot if people like. And in any game their is a statistical best. And the thing no one seems to care to mention is when you start doing the math of this game you see how little of improvements gear actually makes. Something like julianos that is craftable is fine for the entire game solo dungeons trials. Take last patch for example the difference between julianos and bsw was nowhere near as huge as many made it out to be. But it was that extra few % points that makes the competitive folk farm for it. Competitiveness is fun some people don't play to exist they play to win. So stop infringing on others fun cause it doesn't meet your own personal way of fun. Words like scrub are thrown out because competitive players get called try hard and elitists. So it's just a childish cycle lol. And believe me this game is so friendly to both sides of the coin.

Tai-Chi · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Chameleonas

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/348281/why-two-handed-melee-weapons-are-forgotten-and-ignored/p1

People no longer care for the fantasy concept. They just care to win.
1)They don't play with the weapon and armor they like. They copy metas.
2)They don't practice combat. They just crunch numbers, or read such researchers by others.
3)They don't stick to their playstyle through ups and downs.
4)They prefer passive damage (procs) and passive damage mitigation (Shuffle) no matter their class.
5)They embrace a flawed combat system that makes animations useless, as long as they can beat those that don't practice YET animation cancelling.
6)They would abandon their playstyle for one that works better with animation cancelling.
This is the feedback we give ZOS.

They won't make changes to promote your agile assassin, or the raging berserk warrior.
Because people want the 1shooter and the 1vXer

I hope you are not including me in "They" - ie the "People" you so flippantly tar with the same brush.

I am not sure what you mean by "fantasy concept". Whether one chooses to play to win (at any cost) can be independent of whether the game is fantasy in concept or is based in reality.

Some of my friends think I live in a fantasy - either that or else I am from a different planet.

As for playing to win, that surely depends on what ones goals are.

For me 'winning' might be geting the Master Fisher or collecting every Skyshard in the game, for others - who are far more able and adventurous than me - it might be becoming Emperor, Flawless Conqueror or even soloing a 12 man Trial and completing it in the fastest time possible. Winning is relative.

In response to the six points in your discussion

I try to keep abreast of meta because there is much useful information to be gleaned from several good players. Having done that, I make up my own mind as to which armour and weapon to choose.
I practice combat both on target dummies and on NPC mobs or Bosses in Tamriel. I am very grateful that some knowledgable players have given up so much of their time to crunch out numbers that are meaninful to the game.
With all the changes to active skills, passive skills and CP points, it is usually necessary to 'tweek' ones play-style in order to stay alive. I am no masochist and think it is foolhardy to weather through the ups and downs. Adaptability is a part of survival whether you like it or not.
I do not understand what you are talking about here. It is too general by far.
There is nothing flawed about animation cancelling. It is a legitimate technique - one that takes a lot of skill and practice to perfect and get right 100% of the time. It is an art. I have admiration for those players who have virtually mastered the technique.
It is impossible to play the game without abandoning ones initial playstyle, as new skills and skill-trees open up to a player. One is constantly adapting and evolving. That is part of the game's design. As for animation cancelling, I still class myself as a novice at it but when I get it right, it is awesome. It has enhanced my game.

I am saddened that you have such a cynical view of other people who play ESO. :'(

idk · July 2017

Turelus wrote: »

This is the same in any game which has competitive elements, however how you play depends on how competitive you want to be.

If you want to challenge the likes of HODOR for world firsts then yeah, you're going to min/max like crazy. If you just want to do vet trials with your guild and clear it, then you probably can actually do that with a hyrbrid build.

This is just the entire "scrub" mentality from this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Trying to make it sound like playing to win is bad and limiting ones self with rules.

Exactly. Also, OP does not take into account that players actually play the way they want though all levels of the game.

There are those who embrace hybrid builds because they have fun with them. Others choose the armor weight and weapons they want to use because it looks cool, or just because. Of course, just as in any game we have players who choose to dish out as much damage as they can. We all have different challenges we place before us.

It is really a small number of players who get serious about crunching numbers. The rest who work to max their DPS potential use those numbers and ideas from others and move further to tweak our builds to see if we can get more, especially since we all play slightly different.

I would suggest OP speaks for some, but not everyone in the game. One thing I like about ESO is that there is not a require rotation or build for each class.

Most of the big MMOs that have been out for a bit have a require rotation for each class. Do not follow it and damage drops precipitously. ESO does offer the ability for some variations of gear and skills which is evident looking at the best builds.

Cardhwion · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

@Chameleonas

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/348281/why-two-handed-melee-weapons-are-forgotten-and-ignored/p1

People no longer care for the fantasy concept. They just care to win.
1)They don't play with the weapon and armor they like. They copy metas.
2)They don't practice combat. They just crunch numbers, or read such researchers by others.
3)They don't stick to their playstyle through ups and downs.
4)They prefer passive damage (procs) and passive damage mitigation (Shuffle) no matter their class.
5)They embrace a flawed combat system that makes animations useless, as long as they can beat those that don't practice YET animation cancelling.
6)They would abandon their playstyle for one that works better with animation cancelling.
This is the feedback we give ZOS.

They won't make changes to promote your agile assassin, or the raging berserk warrior.
Because people want the 1shooter and the 1vXer

I am very sorry to say, but this is an MMO, which means: class mechanics and succes are NOT consistent, things get nerfed, abilities changed and to play succesfully, one has to adapt. This is simply the way most MMOs are.

I too would like all types of weapons to work for any class. To truly be able to use swords on a magicka class... only it does not work. End of story.

[Deleted User] · July 2017

Hello everyone,

Seeing as this thread seems like a duplicate for this thread here, and seeing that this thread had became a bit derailed near the beginning, we've gone ahead and closed this thread. Please feel free to continue discussing this topic on the original thread and please be sure to keep the Forum Rules in mind to prevent any derailment of the thread.

Thank you for understanding.