Are Normal Dungeons too easy?

LadyNalcarya · July 2017

When youve got high cp rank and decent gear - yes, sure. And even then, normal dungeons still have their use for high cp players - you can easily farm gear pieces.

But as the others said, theyre a part of leveling process. You cant just throw fresh lvl 10's into almost-vet-difficulty dungeons. When a bunch of newbies ends up in a dlc dungeon, its hardly an enjoyable experience for them.

Elaida wrote: »

Thanks everybody for your responses so far.

I'd like to put one point straight: I do not want to make normal dungeons harder for inexperienced and / or low level player. I just would like to recognize special boss abilities in normal mode, too. The normal dungeons can be as casual as before, you just shouldn't be completely ignorant anymore

Personally i think there is no gain when the nasty surprises, like one-shot abilities, suddenly appear in vet version of a dungeon. But that's just an oppinion.

I like the idea of a 3rd scale of a dungeon. Then you could keep normal as it is now, and make the new between version a bit more challenging with all the one shots included, but still more easygoing than vet. The Between Version could be used as training ground then.

Well, all dlc dungeons arent that hard when everyone follows the mechanics. But theyre impossible for many players just because they have mechanics. There's not many dps checks and even if theyre here, you can easily pass most of them if you pull at least 10-15k dps. Its the mechanics that cause the qq on forums and make pugging these dungeons impossible.
Also, normal dungeons do have the mechanics if they have them on vet. You'd still have to go in portal when fighting spawn of Mephala boss, you'd still have to break free from Drodda's drain ability, etc. Of course, theyre more forgiving (afaik even if you fail portal mechanic on lord warden, you will still be alive with like 100 hp), but thats the point of normal dungeons anyway.

Oakmontowls_ESO · July 2017

I really hate it when games have two difficulties, face roll and roll face. One difficulty you pretty much one shot and the other you are one shot. Maplestory is a good example of this. The normal version of the boss dies in one hit while the chaos version I can't even scratch with no difficulty in between. I'd like in this game an additional difficulty level between normal and vet. For easy vet dungeons the current vet difficulty will be transfered to this intermediate level while making the new veteran level harder. For hard vet dungeons like the dlc dungeons, the current vet mode will stay the same while an easier mode will be implemented. Helms will still drop in these intermediate dungeons just not at a 100% rate like they are currently. The pledge rewards will be the same as veteran now and the new veteran will give an additional key as the base reward.

zaria · July 2017

Most normal are very easy, the dlc ones start getting into the easy dungeons in veteran mode.
Darkshade cavern 2 is a bit hard out of the dungeon difficulty scaling.

abigfishy · July 2017

I was healing DSII with a pug that had no idea about the mechanics and never responded in chat. We took more than 30 minutes for the Netch and wiped at least 10 times in the gas room before two quit and theeplacements did it first time. I have similar stories from FGII. Mechanics do matter in some normal dungeons.

supaskrub · July 2017

POps75p wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

I don't believe their is any way that 4 cp160 can finish, Mazz, Cradle or Prison on Vet. I've seen many groups for 630 not capable of doing those.

Never say never!, but i agree the majority would not, however you are not giving enough credit to people here, any group of cp160 players that tackle a vet dlc dungeon are going to struggle and in far more cases than not they will fail, but they could quite easily sail through FG1 or COA1 on vet mode and increase CP, knowledge of mechanics increase in their skills, survivability and experience in the role they play.

Remember when you were a level 20 player?.. were all the dungeons available for you to to take part in?.. no they were not and there is no valid reason in my book why the same principle should not apply to level 50 players with less than cp160 when using the grouping tool to enter vet dungeons, example a level 50 player with 30cp sure you can run vet content with a premade group but the dungeons you can enter via the grouping tool are cp limited and you start at spindleclutch, when you are cp160 you will have all v1 dungeon access. But then we hit two issues, 1) those people will moan that they are being denied freedom of choice to run vet CoA2 etc at cp 30, and 2) people who have paid for the DLC will expect they have the right to run those DLC dungeons at any cp level they wish and screw the rest of the group.

idk · July 2017

Most of the vet dungeons are easy. The only difference between the vet dungeon and normal is a little more HP and the mechanics sometimes need to be dealt with. Heck, a slight bump would put normal pretty close to vets in most cases.

Banana · July 2017

I like easy. I'm not here for frustration and swearing

Tannus15 · July 2017

Nope, they are a good difficulty. They ease people into dungeons which are completely different to overland content. You need to keep in mind that the first time people are running dungeons they are used to things just melting from 1 or 2 attacks in overland. They have no concept of rotation or sustain or anything and the last thing we want is to make the entry level dungeons too much for them and the just swear off the whole thing.

Some people will ignore mechanics unless it's a 1 shot situation.
1 shot situations should be for Vet dungeons because they are punishing and they will ruin peoples day.

The guy ignoring the charge attack will get a rude surprise if he tries it on vet, but I'm pretty sure he'll adjust when the time comes.

zaria · July 2017

supaskrub wrote: »

POps75p wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

I don't believe their is any way that 4 cp160 can finish, Mazz, Cradle or Prison on Vet. I've seen many groups for 630 not capable of doing those.

Never say never!, but i agree the majority would not, however you are not giving enough credit to people here, any group of cp160 players that tackle a vet dlc dungeon are going to struggle and in far more cases than not they will fail, but they could quite easily sail through FG1 or COA1 on vet mode and increase CP, knowledge of mechanics increase in their skills, survivability and experience in the role they play.

Remember when you were a level 20 player?.. were all the dungeons available for you to to take part in?.. no they were not and there is no valid reason in my book why the same principle should not apply to level 50 players with less than cp160 when using the grouping tool to enter vet dungeons, example a level 50 player with 30cp sure you can run vet content with a premade group but the dungeons you can enter via the grouping tool are cp limited and you start at spindleclutch, when you are cp160 you will have all v1 dungeon access. But then we hit two issues, 1) those people will moan that they are being denied freedom of choice to run vet CoA2 etc at cp 30, and 2) people who have paid for the DLC will expect they have the right to run those DLC dungeons at any cp level they wish and screw the rest of the group.

Solution is simple, you have level restrictions on normal dungeons but not on the harder dlc ones.
Add restrictions the same way for veteran dungeons you can do wayrest 1 vet at cp10 but not vIpC here restrictions can be cp160 or even higher.
And this only apply to solo queuing with dungeon finder in including random dungeon.
No rules for premade groups, perhaps an warning.

LadyLethalla · July 2017

IMO there should be a middle difficulty option as well, so that mechanics can be learned.

smacx250 · July 2017

LadyLethalla wrote: »

IMO there should be a middle difficulty option as well, so that mechanics can be learned.

One can learn mechanics just fine on vet. It seems to me that the difficulty between normal/vet isn't the problem - the group tool/players are.

LadyLethalla · July 2017

smacx250 wrote: »

LadyLethalla wrote: »

IMO there should be a middle difficulty option as well, so that mechanics can be learned.

One can learn mechanics just fine on vet. It seems to me that the difficulty between normal/vet isn't the problem - the group tool/players are.

The DLC dungeons are a good example of where there should be a middle difficulty. The mechanics can pretty much be ignored in Normal, so there's no opportunity for learning them in Vet except by repeated wipes - and they may be slightly different anyway (for example the statue reveal synergy in Vet Mazza / lack thereof in Hard Mode Mazza).

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Spot on.
Players will never learn about a vet dungeon by doing normal mode.
They are too easy and mechanics don't matter.

bebynnag · July 2017

***

disintegr8 · July 2017

I think it comes down to your experience. For me the original normal dungeons appear too easy but I think the new normal versions of the old vet dungeons are still challenging for people at lower levels. If newer players want to increase the challenge in any of them they could try 2 or 3 manning some of them.

You would still find a group of level 30's (no CP) struggling in Blackheart Haven, Fungal Grotto 2 or maybe Darkshade Caverns 2. None of the DLC dungeons are overly easy for the inexperienced, even in normal mode.

I think the mix of easy and more challenging is about right and the fact that you have non vet versions of some of the old vet only dungeons is a good thing, giving people more of a variety.

Lylith · July 2017

they're not broken, leave them the *** alone.

LadyDestiny · July 2017

Lylith wrote: »

they're not broken, leave them the *** alone.

This ^^^^

supaskrub · July 2017

zaria wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

POps75p wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

I don't believe their is any way that 4 cp160 can finish, Mazz, Cradle or Prison on Vet. I've seen many groups for 630 not capable of doing those.

Never say never!, but i agree the majority would not, however you are not giving enough credit to people here, any group of cp160 players that tackle a vet dlc dungeon are going to struggle and in far more cases than not they will fail, but they could quite easily sail through FG1 or COA1 on vet mode and increase CP, knowledge of mechanics increase in their skills, survivability and experience in the role they play.

Remember when you were a level 20 player?.. were all the dungeons available for you to to take part in?.. no they were not and there is no valid reason in my book why the same principle should not apply to level 50 players with less than cp160 when using the grouping tool to enter vet dungeons, example a level 50 player with 30cp sure you can run vet content with a premade group but the dungeons you can enter via the grouping tool are cp limited and you start at spindleclutch, when you are cp160 you will have all v1 dungeon access. But then we hit two issues, 1) those people will moan that they are being denied freedom of choice to run vet CoA2 etc at cp 30, and 2) people who have paid for the DLC will expect they have the right to run those DLC dungeons at any cp level they wish and screw the rest of the group.

Add restrictions the same way for veteran dungeons you can do wayrest 1 vet at cp10 but not vIpC here restrictions can be cp160 or even higher.
And this only apply to solo queuing with dungeon finder in including random dungeon.
No rules for premade groups, perhaps an warning.

Thats exactly what I am suggesting, however it wont work for DLC because its an extra sale for ZOS, basicaly they want you to buy the DLC dungeon package when you are as low level as possible (ie level 3 and up), this way its ensured they get the money and if you decide to quit the game early on its of no real consequence to a business if they already have your pennies from an extra sale or two, if the DLC' dungeons were restricted to CP160+ players then the majority of low level players would not go to crown store and buy it unless they had intentions of running with premade groups and for most low level players pugging is a more viable option until they find an active guild/friends who will run with them.

gepe87 · July 2017

CP 395 and still can't finish Mazzatun, had trouble with Cradle and Imperial Sewers

being DD and Minor Healer (Sorc healer)

zaria · July 2017

supaskrub wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

POps75p wrote: »

supaskrub wrote: »

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

I don't believe their is any way that 4 cp160 can finish, Mazz, Cradle or Prison on Vet. I've seen many groups for 630 not capable of doing those.

Never say never!, but i agree the majority would not, however you are not giving enough credit to people here, any group of cp160 players that tackle a vet dlc dungeon are going to struggle and in far more cases than not they will fail, but they could quite easily sail through FG1 or COA1 on vet mode and increase CP, knowledge of mechanics increase in their skills, survivability and experience in the role they play.

Remember when you were a level 20 player?.. were all the dungeons available for you to to take part in?.. no they were not and there is no valid reason in my book why the same principle should not apply to level 50 players with less than cp160 when using the grouping tool to enter vet dungeons, example a level 50 player with 30cp sure you can run vet content with a premade group but the dungeons you can enter via the grouping tool are cp limited and you start at spindleclutch, when you are cp160 you will have all v1 dungeon access. But then we hit two issues, 1) those people will moan that they are being denied freedom of choice to run vet CoA2 etc at cp 30, and 2) people who have paid for the DLC will expect they have the right to run those DLC dungeons at any cp level they wish and screw the rest of the group.

Add restrictions the same way for veteran dungeons you can do wayrest 1 vet at cp10 but not vIpC here restrictions can be cp160 or even higher.
And this only apply to solo queuing with dungeon finder in including random dungeon.
No rules for premade groups, perhaps an warning.

Thats exactly what I am suggesting, however it wont work for DLC because its an extra sale for ZOS, basicaly they want you to buy the DLC dungeon package when you are as low level as possible (ie level 3 and up), this way its ensured they get the money and if you decide to quit the game early on its of no real consequence to a business if they already have your pennies from an extra sale or two, if the DLC' dungeons were restricted to CP160+ players then the majority of low level players would not go to crown store and buy it unless they had intentions of running with premade groups and for most low level players pugging is a more viable option until they find an active guild/friends who will run with them.

Understand that, however you will get an strong distaste for the dungeons if you get it all the time as an random dungeon as level 15. Very high chance for kick or group folds.
Think most who buy dungeon packs has done most of the other dungeons already.
However its not give than the next dungeons or at least not the normal ones will be harder than ROM.
Should an normal dungeon be harder than the easy veteran?

Curragraigue · July 2017

I hadn't done any of the old Vet Dungeons on normal until yesterday when I was levelling a lowbie Warden. The thing I noticed was with scaling you could completely ignore mechanics as others in this thread have said. I saw a DPS get hit by the red circle 5 times in Spindleclutch 2 and only get a little tickle each time. So an easy run through a dungeon but it then explains why people then do those dungeons on Vet and have no idea about any of the mechanics.

Keep_Door · July 2017

For good geared high levels ... yes they are suppose to be easy. Thats ehy there are vet dungeons.

For low level crappy geard scrubs no they aren't to easy.

Sharee · July 2017

The premise of the post is that normal dungeons are too easy because they allow people to ignore mechanics. As an example, it says tempest boss charge only removed 30% of a player's life.

But would it also only remove 30% of that player's life if it was a level 34 in mismatched green level 26 gear who does not have any food running? I don't think so. And players like that are who these normal dungeons are tuned to be challenging for.

TLDR, normal dungeons are not too easy, they just seem so that way to you because you(or your group members) are over-equipped for them.

zyk · July 2017

Normal dungeons are way too easy. They are so easy that mechanics can usually be ignored. This is a problem because it does not prepare players for Vet content. I think that's why Vet difficulty is such a wall for some players.

If content as easy as Normal is required, there should be a new difficulty level added between Vet and Normal. Perhaps three difficulties could be named:

- Beginner
- Novice
- Veteran

Theodard · July 2017

I don't think that normal one are "too easy" in that they are meant for people to learn how to do it, or those that just want to wear crafted sets that don't provide much in the form of power/fortitude/etc but can be made to look how the player wants to look. Think Vampires Kiss+Seducer+dropped jewelry or some combination there of.

What I do think though is that the difference between Veteran and non is large, but once you've mastered Veteran versions of them there isn't much else to do. Hard Mode adds a nice touch, but many end game players can two man all of the older dungeons even on HM. What would be nice is a mode after that. Call it Nightmare Mode if you like, but that should start at the beginning of the dungeon not just the last boss. Each boss is harder, there are more trash mobs that are harder to beat. Maybe even an extra boss or two in there that is only in Nightmare Mode? You could even in such a case allow group sizes potentially to be up to 8 people maybe? Though in a case like that, the Nightmare Mode should scale up some in difficulty with those additional group members.

DeadlyRecluse · July 2017

Normal dungeons are tuned pretty well for actually new players (in dropped gear, usually not 5 piece sets, low CP, bow healers, etc.).

NordSwordnBoard · July 2017

zyk wrote: »

Normal dungeons are way too easy. They are so easy that mechanics can usually be ignored. This is a problem because it does not prepare players for Vet content. I think that's why Vet difficulty is such a wall for some players.

If content as easy as Normal is required, there should be a new difficulty level added between Vet and Normal. Perhaps three difficulties could be named:

- Beginner
- Novice
- Veteran

I agree, but part of the problem may be thinning out the population in all groups by making a third. Primetime or not, I think there may be a far less chance of the already broken finder getting enough people in the middle bracket together.

I think a vet training mode where you give useful rewards for end game people like flowers and gold for getting a group of 3 under 300cp through the vet dungeons could work. If all parties go in to play the role they signed up for and its not a speed run or for gear etc, people may learn. That's how you go with guildies or friends - open minded.

Then again, what I said right before about what we have barely working makes a training mode seem unlikely.

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO · July 2017

Most dungeons can be done solo on normal...so yeah it's way too easy.

zcripturez · July 2017

KingYogi415 wrote: »

When most groups 2 DPS have a combined 10k. I'd say NO!!!

Yes, this is why I refuse to do vet dungeons with randoms. Just because you can queue as "DPS" doesn't make you one.

Leave normal dungeons alone, some of us like to play video games for fun.

ParaNostram · July 2017

Eh, they're too easy for the veteran players but those players should be doing vet dungeons. The normal dungeons are just right for new players (my new friends are struggling to clear them for example)