Are Normal Dungeons too easy?

Elaida · July 2017

Yes, that is a serious question. Are normal dungeons too easy?

I mean let’s face it. We all „blame“ people who fail at the vet version of a dungeon that they probably didn’t do or practise the normal version. But can they really practise the mechanics on normal?

Let me give you an example. A few days ago i was random normal Tempest Island. At the beginning of the dungeon someone mentioned he didn’t know it an wanted explanations. So I did explain. You all know the charge from last boss? The charge you can avoid by standing close enough? Mentioned that to the group and asked everyone to keep a bit close and so on. During the fight another player ignores that, stands at max range and gets charged all the time. After the fight i asked him to stay closer next time he faces that boss. He nearly exploded and told me to stop whining and I obviously had no idea of the mechanics at all SINCE THE CHARGE IS NOT HURTING THAT MUCH and i should stopp exaggerating.

And true. The Charge hit him for around 30% of his life. Easy to survive and heal. But how are new players to learn the mechanincs when there is no need for mechanics in normal dungeons? How is a new player to learn there are special boss ablities you should counter one way or another when said abilities can be ignored at normal?

So my suggestion would be to make sure mechanics are needed in normal versions, too. Like make AOE’s hurt like hell and not just itch a little bit. Or make special abilities of bosses as lethal as in Veteral Version.

What’s your opinion?

PS: English is not my first language. So please don’t whine about my mistakes. Thank you.

Jorotarr · July 2017

I've recently started running normal dungeons to practice for vet versions. I even printed out a list of boss mechanics and everything so that I could know what to expect. But I found that the boss mechanics didn't matter too much. Good for me to practice rotations and skills, but not helpful for learning the dungeon bosses.

supaskrub · July 2017

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

KingYogi415 · July 2017

When most groups 2 DPS have a combined 10k. I'd say NO!!!

phileunderx2 · July 2017

Yes and no. If you are new and have no CP then yes they can be challenging. Some of the level II versions with a vet healer and 3 potatoes are pretty darn difficult. I'm looking at you wayrest II. Lol

me_ming · July 2017

Elaida wrote: »

I mean let’s face it. We all „blame“ people who fail at the vet version of a dungeon that they probably didn’t do or practise the normal version. But can they really practise the mechanics on normal?

To answer your question: Yes.

I played vICP's pledge yesterday, 3 times actually on the same character, because whenever I was put in a group by group finder the group was already in the middle of the dungeon (surprisingly, the groups I have been have managed to complete it-- all 3 of them, not too shabby for pugging). And in all 3 groups, half of the group had literally 0 experience in the dungeon. Anyways, in of of the instance, I think it was one of the healer who had experience, he quit and suggested to the people who didn't know the mechanic of the last boss to play normals. I didn't say anything, but that is probably the worse suggestion you can give to anyone if they want to learn mechanic. Not only because most of the time if you queue in normal and you have someone who is knows the mechanic, they can carry you through it. And mechanic would just be something of the mind. And as you mentioned even if you didn't have someone to carry you, the one shots aren't there. That one shot mechanic of when you need to get inside the portal is not gonna kill you if you're in full health.

That is why, when someone is a lowbie CP, I do NOT want to kick them, because they cannot practice normal dungeons to prepare them for vet dungeons. To suggest to try normal dungeons before vet is an ignorant suggestion.

Kali_Despoine · July 2017

since I can solo most normal dungeons I would say yes
but I'm end game now
so no
some maybe most vet dungeons are easy to
I've soloed some of them as well
we just need a WTFBQQ mode to do
Some thing that wont drop training gear ever
Prosperous will be almost non-exsistant
and...
a token drop to save for weapons of our choice

mesmerizedish · July 2017

Normal dungeons are part of the leveling process. They should be completeable by low-level characters with few skills or who throw whatever skills on their bar to level them up. So no, they're not too easy.

Fiskerton · July 2017

I don't think it's that normals are too easy. They're supposed to be easy enough for new or lower skilled players to complete. I think the issue is all the high cp people queuing for it being paired with the no experience people and just blasting through everything. At times I'm paired with a 600+ cp magsorc with all the right gear and the trash dies before my first endless hail even hits the ground. Its really just not fun and with the amount of dps or healing endgame ready players output, mechanics can even be skipped right over.

Tldr don't make the dungeon easier, severely grade the scaling for high level players.

Cellentel · July 2017

When One Tamruel was released and veteran versions of the previously normal-only Dungeons became available, I was amazed by all the new mechanics they added to the fights. Only later did I realize the same mechanics were already there, just utterly ignorable. I even dug up some guides that advised ignoring them (for example, Direfrost Keep guides suggesting you don't break free because the drain it keeps the boss occupied and "doesn't do anything".

So, this isn't a new problem, particularly with one or two endgame players in the game who can solo it. Honestly, the best solution is to turn to group with people of similar level and skill - you have a much better shot at learning the mechanics that way.

Side note: I use normal sometimes to learn animations/timings associated with specific fights. I can go in alone and focus on the boss animations for as long as I need without pressure from a group to finish up. That has taught me quite a bit about severe of the Dungeons.

Recremen · July 2017

Two things!

New players end up learning the mechanics the same way 99% of players in 99% of situations learn them : by looking them up online from folks who found out first. Very few people are actually involved in the initial discovery of mechanics, and they are the types that also like to make content to help other people learn it. That's been an MMO tradition for like a jillion years, so no worries on that front!

Second, not all players need to learn the mechanics. Some folks won't ever move past normal mode dungeons because they just want something casual, and that's fine too. I'm glad they have a normal mode to play around with so they can experience the story, the set pieces, and the bosses, even if they're not experiencing that last part as fully as progression raiders do.

Shanjijri · July 2017

Elaida wrote: »

A few days ago i was random normal Tempest Island. At the beginning of the dungeon someone mentioned he didn’t know it an wanted explanations. So I did explain. You all know the charge from last boss? The charge you can avoid by standing close enough? Mentioned that to the group and asked everyone to keep a bit close and so on. During the fight another player ignores that, stands at max range and gets charged all the time. After the fight i asked him to stay closer next time he faces that boss. He nearly exploded and told me to stop whining and I obviously had no idea of the mechanics at all SINCE THE CHARGE IS NOT HURTING THAT MUCH and i should stopp exaggerating.

And true. The Charge hit him for around 30% of his life. Easy to survive and heal.

But I think it is really annoying when you put your ground AOE on her and she jumps to someone, even if it not hurts that much. I do not remember if she comes back (I do not run TI for a while), but if it is not the case, it is also annoying for the tank.

Magdalina · July 2017

They are too easy in terms of learning mechanics but I suppose they are just right for the people who are just there to rp their way through the quest and therein lies the issue. They cannot buff them because then people who are not interested in mechanics and vet dungeons whatsoever will have nowhere to go, but as it stands there's nowhere for new players wanting to learn mechanics to go. Normal dungeons teach you f**** all.

Zenimax must have figured the super casual crowd is bigger than that of people actually wanting to learn (judging by the forums, can't blame them) and just took the easy way out by removing any learning curve from the game whatsoever. You have "just here for the story" content which is like 99% and then you SUDDENLY have vet stuff which is like from another universe. It's dividing the community hard causing endless frustration for everyone but ZOS doesn't give a damn - why if people still buy from the Crown Store?

agingerinohio · July 2017

Lol no. They're training grounds for people new to dungeons.

Mauin · July 2017

With experienced players, normal dungeons are easy. That's the way it should be, considering we would have the gear and the knowledge to breeze though it. I do find it a little annoying when I'm on a lowbie and there's one level 50 CP whatever player blasting through everything without consideration for others in the group, but that's part of PUGs and also something that a vote to kick could solve.

However, I do PUG a lot despite the fact that it annoys me rather frequently, and I have seen the opposite side of the coin. The Chapter I dungeons are usually fine in PUGs unless the group is truly something horrible, but the Chapter II dungeons and DLC dungeons can be another beast entirely. I don't know how many times I've seen groups fail on Gamyne Bandu in Fungal II because they don't have the DPS to kill the shades fast enough, or how many times I've seen groups wipe on Bloodspawn in Spindleclutch II because they're pulling under 3k DPS. I could keep going on.

There are some scenarios where I think the normal dungeons could use their damage increased to better reflect the veteran versions, but at the same time, I feel like that would have a negative impact on PUGs. Some dungeons are already a pain to get through with an inexperienced low DPS PUG group (if not impossible)... Buffing those would hurt.

POps75p · July 2017

supaskrub wrote: »

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

I don't believe their is any way that 4 cp160 can finish, Mazz, Cradle or Prison on Vet. I've seen many groups for 630 not capable of doing those.

Wifeaggro13 · July 2017

Elaida wrote: »

Yes, that is a serious question. Are normal dungeons too easy?

I mean let’s face it. We all „blame“ people who fail at the vet version of a dungeon that they probably didn’t do or practise the normal version. But can they really practise the mechanics on normal?

Let me give you an example. A few days ago i was random normal Tempest Island. At the beginning of the dungeon someone mentioned he didn’t know it an wanted explanations. So I did explain. You all know the charge from last boss? The charge you can avoid by standing close enough? Mentioned that to the group and asked everyone to keep a bit close and so on. During the fight another player ignores that, stands at max range and gets charged all the time. After the fight i asked him to stay closer next time he faces that boss. He nearly exploded and told me to stop whining and I obviously had no idea of the mechanics at all SINCE THE CHARGE IS NOT HURTING THAT MUCH and i should stopp exaggerating.

And true. The Charge hit him for around 30% of his life. Easy to survive and heal. But how are new players to learn the mechanincs when there is no need for mechanics in normal dungeons? How is a new player to learn there are special boss ablities you should counter one way or another when said abilities can be ignored at normal?

So my suggestion would be to make sure mechanics are needed in normal versions, too. Like make AOE’s hurt like hell and not just itch a little bit. Or make special abilities of bosses as lethal as in Veteral Version.

What’s your opinion?

PS: English is not my first language. So please don’t whine about my mistakes. Thank you.

Was a stupid mistake on ZOs part they should have made all dungeons require roles with in the mechanics. the normals are far to scaled tot he point you can do them naked with no abilites and no roles. there are only a couple Vr dungeons that have any teeth but most are scaled to a point of just aoe your way through.

O_LYKOS · July 2017

Normal dungeons are aimed at lower level players so...no not really.

At higher level cp yeah they are very much pretty easy.

F7sus4 · July 2017

I think 4-man dungeons that are facerolled by 1 semi-advanced player are way too easy.

smacx250 · July 2017

I'd say no. Remember, these are the dungeons that even the lvl 10's are supposed to do. And please don't start on how low lvl are just as strong as high lvl because of scaling, as if you do you must not get "out" much and haven't watched the masses of low/mid lvl players going on and on fighting a single wolf!

KochDerDamonen · July 2017

I think current 'normal, is fine as an introductory difficulty. My take on this would be making the current version of normal dungeons undesirable for higher level players (force prosperous/training/impenetrable drops?)

Then add an intermediate difficulty, which would reward experienced players for helping (read; not carrying) newer players. ZOS needs to give us useful tools for mentors, like the pre-made multilingual messages on console or the ability to highlight an ememy for the group. The queue for these dungeons should focus on one mentor + three inecperienced players (account-wide check for if the dungeon has been cleared on vet while filling that role?)

Doctordarkspawn · July 2017

Normal is supposed to be easy. You wanna make the difficulty scaling better, advocate for more difficulties. Buffing normal will drive people away from this game and you'll have accomplished nothing productive, but giving ESO's competition a boost.

And if you are yelling for normal to be buffed, go play another game. Just go.

The_Red_Viper · July 2017

That's the whole point of normal, if you want a challenge go play vet, pointless thread is pointless.

Huyen · July 2017

supaskrub wrote: »

In general I say leave them as they are but make it compulsory that entry to vet dungeons via group finder is for 160CP+ players only, (premade groups exempt from this).

Individual player skill and competance varies wildly and i feel making the normal dungeons harder would have a negative experience effect on the low cp but skilled player who's pug group are getting close to one shot over and over again by less experienced/skilled players.

That said i do see why they need to be slightly more harder but it punishes the decent player when they group up with an overall bad group, as it stands now a decent low level player can save the day when everything is going *** up around them, but it still aint easy for them.

I would like to add the requirement of at least having done the dungeon on normal.

Sixsixsix161 · July 2017

I miss the old days, when in that "other" MMO, long-term players would run you through a dungeon/instance/raid and teach you where to stand (and where not to stand). Along the way, you learned to wipe a team, rezz teammates, return to the dungeon after a wipe, etc. If you didn't learn anything, you would find yourself on the outside, looking in because you were no longer invited to go PUG.

I really enjoyed that time. Unfortunately, at some time the entire environment became very toxic, and a lot (or most) players had the point of view that they knew it all, or didn't need to know it all. The common view was that I'm going in this thing and get done in minimum time, and get out, regardless of what happens.

So I don't know if you would accomplish anything by making them harder, except maybe get more complaints from the player base that dungeons are too hard now.

There's been a major change in players' attitudes, and not for the better, in my opinion, but it's too late to put that geni back in the bottle (anyone remember that gear check armor thing in the "other" MMO, and the heated discussions it raised for months afterwards? That didn't help, either).

6

Drummerx04 · July 2017

POps75p wrote: »

I don't believe their is any way that 4 cp160 can finish, Mazz, Cradle or Prison on Vet. I've seen many groups for 630 not capable of doing those.

I wouldn't discount it. While 4 completely new CP160 first account players stepping into vet dungeons for the first time probably won't do so well, Experienced players with only 160CP allocated should be able to clear the dungeons without too much fuss... albeit a bit slower. I'd even say hard mode for Prison and Cradle would be pretty straight forward with lower damage, but HM Mazz would become quite a bit harder.

Honestly, I don't think people want to hear it... but vet dungeons ARE the training difficulty. There are mechanics that cannot simply be ignored, there are one shots, a little strategy and a decent group are required or at least preferable for a clear. It's the vet TRIALS which are the real endgame pve difficulty.

letsdothedungeonslow · July 2017

If I were the dude in charge of this at ZOS, I'd have more levels of dungeons.

Cuz we only have two and there are lots of people that are in the wrong place, at both ends.

-Poor players of CP rank in vet dungeons
-way too good players in normal cuz they are stuck of terrible PUGs for vet

And so on...

Guilds and Friends are not always a solution cuz people go offline and /or are doing something else.

I feel this is made worse by a lot of good players having left cuz they are bored, there's not enough new content, and they don't like the Morrowind changes.

What's wrong with having five levels of dungeon, as below , and once your toon is lvl 50, you can't queue for the first two?

1. Noob. As in New to ESO and dungeons.
2. Developing. You're trying to learn and get better, or you're an experienced MMO player that hasn't leveled to 50 yet
3. Normal. The main learning ground for players who are level 50 but have few CP and are still mostly casual. There could be nice overlap here for the people like me who sometimes want to teach
4. Vet. To do these dungeons you have to have completed all the dungeons in the game (non DLC) and be CP160 or higher
5. Champion. Scored like Trials and for the very best players.

Seems logical to me.

Thoughts?

Elaida · July 2017

Thanks everybody for your responses so far.

I'd like to put one point straight: I do not want to make normal dungeons harder for inexperienced and / or low level player. I just would like to recognize special boss abilities in normal mode, too. The normal dungeons can be as casual as before, you just shouldn't be completely ignorant anymore

Personally i think there is no gain when the nasty surprises, like one-shot abilities, suddenly appear in vet version of a dungeon. But that's just an oppinion.

I like the idea of a 3rd scale of a dungeon. Then you could keep normal as it is now, and make the new between version a bit more challenging with all the one shots included, but still more easygoing than vet. The Between Version could be used as training ground then.

RizaHawkeye · July 2017

The_Red_Viper wrote: »

That's the whole point of normal, if you want a challenge go play vet, pointless thread is pointless.

This.

My understanding of the dungeon design is that first level dungeons (CoH I, Fungal Grotto I) are the easiest. Run those to get the basic dungeon experience or if you and a friend or two want to have the dungeon experience without some Anxious Nancy running ahead of you and getting mad.

The II's are more challenging but still basic.

Veteran dungeons are for those who want a real challenge. Run those if you think normals are boring.

Or even better, try some of the other more challenging spaces in ESO. Head for a trial and try to solo that. Take on a world boss solo. Head over to Craglorn.

So my answer is no, I don't think they're too easy. As to teaching newbies the mechanics, the problem isn't the dungeons. The problem is a newbie runs a dungeon, finishes it, then thinks they're ready for veteran dungeons. In other words, it's not the dungeon that's the problem; it's the particular player.

datgladiatah · July 2017

I'd say no. Their easiness makes it so players who have a rather strong character can solo the dungeons more easily to farm already difficult to get gear. Otherwise I could never get a pug group to solo direfrost keep or blackheart haven. I think it's a nice introduction to dungeons for newer players who have no idea what the game's dungeons play like. I couldn't do even normal dungeons when i first played. Now I have toons that can solo some vet dungeons. The power creep in this game is immense considering sets and min maxing.

Besides, the DLC normal dungeons are pretty difficult either way, and I think that's only fair to expect that the newer stuff you play gives you the most bang for your buck

qsnoopyjr · July 2017

If you have over 300CP