So I have a warden.....

Anhedonie · June 2017

Shove it deep into your wazoo and wait for ZOS to buff them. Well, you can do quests, gather skyshards, repair walls in Cyro while you wait.
At least that's what I'm doing. And for trials I'm simply using different characters.

Your weekly reminder that garbans are still wards. Wait, that doesn't sound right.
Wardens are still garbage, I mean.

old_mufasa · June 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Waffennacht · June 2017

In a mSorc vs mWard , remember as a Warden to Betty their Curse, makes their burst almost impossible. Then, if you slot shimmering (for pulse and frag) they really can't do anything. But then I've felt Warden to be a pretty hard counter to sorcs

Zardayne · June 2017

As usual what I see is Stamden has awesome burst..sure hit bird of prey, cutting dive on the way in, load up shalks, fire up dizzying swing, and swing for the fences with a big kaboomba (and hope to hell that target of yours doesn't move or roll out of position because you've then fizzled out except for cutting which is your guarantee almost. The reason why you see mainly magden in pvp is because lining up that big combo hit is super tough on an intelligent foe. Sure when it hits you feel like a champ..when it doesn't you feel like that rookie batter and 3 and out.

@SodanTok said "And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better"

I also feel what was mentioned by SodanTok hurts the Stamden. Too much prep time all for the big hitter. Better make sure Green lotus is up for crit, better make sure bull netch has been casted for major brutality, now were waiting again for 3 seconds for shalks to hit. In PvE I found this manageable though annoying. PVP, well that's a whole different ball game.

Lastly, Leeching vines does a decent job as it heals when your hit and when you do the hitting. It procs major mending and maturation which gives you bonus health. The bull netch if I'm not mistaken also gives you major sorcery which will increase the vines healing as well. If it lasted longer than 10 seconds it would be even better and the casting animation was faster and smoother. As a melel fighter I'd rather have a strong hot that a burst heal so I can spend more time fighting and contemplating my next move while I'm being kept alive. I don't want to have to stop and start spamming a heavy stamina using burst heal 2 or 3 times to cap me off only to go back to fighting on an empty tank. Personally that's why I think Rally and Vigor are better options than vines or the shroom. Now when I'm tinkering with Dual weild and since it doesn't have rally, I've used vines as a mag dump and it works very well, that is unless someone nearby needs the healing more..grr that bugs the hell out of me lol.

Zardayne · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

In a mSorc vs mWard , remember as a Warden to Betty their Curse, makes their burst almost impossible. Then, if you slot shimmering (for pulse and frag) they really can't do anything. But then I've felt Warden to be a pretty hard counter to sorcs

That's good to know about shimmering. I had read somewhere that it didn't work on frags. Normally in mass PVP I cast it and I hear 3 instant smashed plates and I'm moving into a better, more concealed spot lol. I don't stick around to find out how large the round was...

Tryxus · June 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

In a mSorc vs mWard , remember as a Warden to Betty their Curse, makes their burst almost impossible. Then, if you slot shimmering (for pulse and frag) they really can't do anything. But then I've felt Warden to be a pretty hard counter to sorcs

That's good to know about shimmering. I had read somewhere that it didn't work on frags. Normally in mass PVP I cast it and I hear 3 instant smashed plates and I'm moving into a better, more concealed spot lol. I don't stick around to find out how large the round was...

It absorbs the damage, but doesn't prevent the knockdown

magictucktuck · June 2017

Im maining a Stamden now. and i like it in PVP. for PVP its typical 2H and bow medium armor. and its standard bars with sub assault into crit charge dizzying swing execute/DB and anyone but a blocking tank or sorc who shield in between my attacks and the execute dies. its not very hard to line it up being only sub assault is iffy. but even without sub assault you're using the same attacks as a stam sorc or stam DK so its not like you're missing much, you just dont one shot them(well still squishy ones you will) . I'm in no CP by the way

SodanTok · June 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Waffennacht · June 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Magden's (at least me and another) are incorporating reach to land the Shalk. Just a slight pro tip is to stand on Corrupting Pollen, Enchanted Forest or any AoE to have the visual blend into the ground

SodanTok · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Magden's (at least me and another) are incorporating reach to land the Shalk. Just a slight pro tip is to stand on Corrupting Pollen, Enchanted Forest or any AoE to have the visual blend into the ground

Yeah, that is pretty similiar to my stam warden setup (except my knockback/disorient skill will give them free CC immunity on any DoT tick and is only 10m of range), but even reach has travel time and will reach (...) you around same moment shalk should spawn. So it is very telegraphed like MagSorc burst, but I feel like if you miss the burst on warden you just spent 3sec doing nothing without reward and will have to wait out another 3 for another chance.
... and I have nothing against it, just saying the potential for burst from warden is maybe bigger by value of damage but lesser by chance of happening. Something that should be taken into consideration when calling them good/great/best/OP

Visual overload protip is great, but would not work reliably imo. In most fights in Cyrodiil half the animations dont work properly (the visual ones, not character animation like warden touching ground to start shalk). All those green/teal animations from warden are the first one to go away in laggy fights. Except netch beam. Long after I cant see ice comet animation beneath me anymore I will still get to see the netch beam.

Junkkis · June 2017

got same feel about warden. tryed stam and magic warden but skills are so delay its not fun to play. bear pet get stuck offen to terrain and cant help in combat. Netch beam need to go, its really annoying when u got all time pet that keep green laser on u all time ><

Jitterbug · June 2017

I built a mobile burstlol magden. Its fun.

old_mufasa · June 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Again though that's unexperienced stam wardens.. as I don't always charge when proc sub assault.. you dodge role through me when I fake a rush at you your going to get hit.. as ill just dodge roll back with you.. as sub assault goes in your forward arc. also you can recast it before it goes off to change up the timing.. its just that like chess you have to think a few steps ahead... its not a spam class for sure.

Also Perma frost is a group killer.. I have caused wipe of more then one zerg that was stacked.. with charge and a 70% snare, 30% damage reduction for you and anyone on your team in it with you as well damage and after 3 ticks of damage a aoe stun... ya you wont wipe it alone.. but with that active..i broke the back of zergs. Something that no other stam class has a way to super support bomber groups in aoe slaughters..

I think if you really tried playing Stam Warden as much as I have since launch you would find that its pretty effective in group play.. and lets face it.. that's the bulk of pvp in ESO.. Even in dueling Wardens are very strong.. that bear is a great way to keep damage going or making the target move to avoid it allowing you to use it as a sudo-shield. Really the only Stam class I have had issues dueling are stamblades that are animation canceling, invis spaming ambushers.. and that's mainly do to lag. DK's, Stam sorcs, Stamplars I have not had an issue.. but it takes time to get the timing when to false charge, use sub assault as a range attack while cliff diver spamming and poison injecting and such.

I'm not saying Stam wardens are perfect.. but they are not near as weak as some are trying to portray them and as said.. some changes would be welcome.. the bear ult only taking 1 slot, more stam morphs.. such as I think there should be a stam swarm morph or a stam morph for Impaling Shards if not impaling shards a increase in time for Arctic Wind and a stam damage scaling morph for it.

For me Bear morph being 1 ultimate slot and Artic Wind lasting longer and having a morph scaling damage with stamina.. If they did the Artic Wind changes to last longer with a stam damage morph it would shore up the biggest issue with stam wardens that is sustain damage between combos giving them small pressure damage increase.. the issue now 10 sec and scaling off health its just not worth a slot.

SodanTok · June 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Again though that's unexperienced stam wardens.. as I don't always charge when proc sub assault.. you dodge role through me when I fake a rush at you your going to get hit.. as ill just dodge roll back with you.. as sub assault goes in your forward arc. also you can recast it before it goes off to change up the timing.. its just that like chess you have to think a few steps ahead... its not a spam class for sure.

Also Perma frost is a group killer.. I have caused wipe of more then one zerg that was stacked.. with charge and a 70% snare, 30% damage reduction for you and anyone on your team in it with you as well damage and after 3 ticks of damage a aoe stun... ya you wont wipe it alone.. but with that active..i broke the back of zergs. Something that no other stam class has a way to super support bomber groups in aoe slaughters..

I think if you really tried playing Stam Warden as much as I have since launch you would find that its pretty effective in group play.. and lets face it.. that's the bulk of pvp in ESO.. Even in dueling Wardens are very strong.. that bear is a great way to keep damage going or making the target move to avoid it allowing you to use it as a sudo-shield. Really the only Stam class I have had issues dueling are stamblades that are animation canceling, invis spaming ambushers.. and that's mainly do to lag. DK's, Stam sorcs, Stamplars I have not had an issue.. but it takes time to get the timing when to false charge, use sub assault as a range attack while cliff diver spamming and poison injecting and such.

I'm not saying Stam wardens are perfect.. but they are not near as weak as some are trying to portray them and as said.. some changes would be welcome.. the bear ult only taking 1 slot, more stam morphs.. such as I think there should be a stam swarm morph or a stam morph for Impaling Shards if not impaling shards a increase in time for Arctic Wind and a stam damage scaling morph for it.

For me Bear morph being 1 ultimate slot and Artic Wind lasting longer and having a morph scaling damage with stamina.. If they did the Artic Wind changes to last longer with a stam damage morph it would shore up the biggest issue with stam wardens that is sustain damage between combos giving them small pressure damage increase.. the issue now 10 sec and scaling off health its just not worth a slot.

I think we reached misunderstanding. It looks like you are defending wardens from me saying they are weak, but I dont mean they are weak

They are actually good and I love playing my warden. While I am putting warden down, I dont mean it in a way that suggest they are weak... just that they aren't super good as some people portrait them. (Like highest burst does not translate to most successful at 'bursting' and so on)

old_mufasa · June 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Again though that's unexperienced stam wardens.. as I don't always charge when proc sub assault.. you dodge role through me when I fake a rush at you your going to get hit.. as ill just dodge roll back with you.. as sub assault goes in your forward arc. also you can recast it before it goes off to change up the timing.. its just that like chess you have to think a few steps ahead... its not a spam class for sure.

Also Perma frost is a group killer.. I have caused wipe of more then one zerg that was stacked.. with charge and a 70% snare, 30% damage reduction for you and anyone on your team in it with you as well damage and after 3 ticks of damage a aoe stun... ya you wont wipe it alone.. but with that active..i broke the back of zergs. Something that no other stam class has a way to super support bomber groups in aoe slaughters..

I think if you really tried playing Stam Warden as much as I have since launch you would find that its pretty effective in group play.. and lets face it.. that's the bulk of pvp in ESO.. Even in dueling Wardens are very strong.. that bear is a great way to keep damage going or making the target move to avoid it allowing you to use it as a sudo-shield. Really the only Stam class I have had issues dueling are stamblades that are animation canceling, invis spaming ambushers.. and that's mainly do to lag. DK's, Stam sorcs, Stamplars I have not had an issue.. but it takes time to get the timing when to false charge, use sub assault as a range attack while cliff diver spamming and poison injecting and such.

I'm not saying Stam wardens are perfect.. but they are not near as weak as some are trying to portray them and as said.. some changes would be welcome.. the bear ult only taking 1 slot, more stam morphs.. such as I think there should be a stam swarm morph or a stam morph for Impaling Shards if not impaling shards a increase in time for Arctic Wind and a stam damage scaling morph for it.

For me Bear morph being 1 ultimate slot and Artic Wind lasting longer and having a morph scaling damage with stamina.. If they did the Artic Wind changes to last longer with a stam damage morph it would shore up the biggest issue with stam wardens that is sustain damage between combos giving them small pressure damage increase.. the issue now 10 sec and scaling off health its just not worth a slot.

I think we reached misunderstanding. It looks like you are defending wardens from me saying they are weak, but I dont mean they are weak They are actually good and I love playing my warden. While I am putting warden down, I dont mean it in a way that suggest they are weak... just that they aren't super good as some people portrait them.

Well I don't know anyone saying magic wardens are super good, or tanks.. though there 2nd best.. or healers as they are 2nd best... the only thing that people have said is that stam wardens have by far the highest burst damage in pvp.. and that burst damage is a major factor in pvp.. and that of DPS specs for Wardens Stamina DPS are in the upper end of the stam class's compared to mage wardens being dead last..

So if saying they have the highest burst is some how saying they are super the be all and end all of Stam class's... well that's not what was said.. but to many are trying to make excuses for there inability to do said burst.. As I've said it takes a lot of practice to get the most of out the class.. but that's true for all class's.. something that people have had years to prefect with other class's and trying to compare that experience with a fraction of the time playing their warden.. that's pretty much what I've been trying to say. Most of the issue being argued here is not class issues its learning to play the class most effectively issues.. you know such as some earlier in the thread using tanking healing skill in a dps role when other skills scale off stamina better and heal for a truck ton more meaning less spam and less resource use.. just a learning the class issue with some of the posts vs a innate problem with the class... other then lacking magic damage issue.

Waffennacht · June 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

What the.. ok.. for one.. I stated in short PVE fights that stam warden would blow the stam sorcs in damage... then you bring up all fight in pve are over 30 sec.. and I come back that most pve fights are less then 10 sec where the Stam warden rules.. and even in boss fights.. many have adds that the warden can almost instant gib.. and I already said in longer fights sorc have a advantage...

As far as PvP.. for one you can't dodge or avoid cliff racers.. and using one hand a shield charge/stun sub assault followed by switch to 2 hander for execute is almost unavoidable.. unless you never attack and just dodge roll all day.. but as you said you have tend to fight magic wardens.. as stated are underperforming.. even the devs have agreed they are under performing.. In bg's for me at least I never 1v1.. its always a group fight or out numbered.. and in group fights landing a charge, sub assault combo is pretty easy.

I think here we are auguring experience.. as I have played both class's and know how to use my warden..such as I don't have to charge you to hit with sub assault.. I can pop it.. and hang back you can dodge roll all you want but its a aoe attack with some range to it.. so I can use that with cliff divers and a bow to pressure then all of sudden switch to a melee weapon and gap close for a stun execute.. Wardens perform very well in pvp.. but most are still learning how to get the most out of the class.. playing against players using there primary class for months or years...

In the end.. Wardens will be getting a buff.. and that will just make that gap in pve even smaller.. I agree magic sorc will blow a magic warden out of the water in terms of dps.. but for stam builds the game is much closer.. Stam Wardens sustain is not that far behind Stam sorcs.. and Stam wardens are the king of burst dps right now.. so with that in mind the future of wardens just looking brighter..

Yeah there is big difference between having enemy warden in focus and having to split focus to all present enemies. In some 4v4 fight it is easy for warden to suddenly jump at you when you dont expect him because someone else took your focus out, but in 1v1, if you are in my face I will dodge through you and you will never hit the combo unless you stun me just in the moment i was going to dodge/block the sub assault (but before I did any of it and not too early for me to break before it hits). But I guess that comes with the class. It all based on group play -> warden empowers others while others empower him (the whole dynamic of fight changes when you are suddenly allowed to aim subassault to hit the whole group and stuff like that)

To put it simply, stam warden burst combo is more obvious than from any other class (well, maybe except magsorc)

Again though that's unexperienced stam wardens.. as I don't always charge when proc sub assault.. you dodge role through me when I fake a rush at you your going to get hit.. as ill just dodge roll back with you.. as sub assault goes in your forward arc. also you can recast it before it goes off to change up the timing.. its just that like chess you have to think a few steps ahead... its not a spam class for sure.

Also Perma frost is a group killer.. I have caused wipe of more then one zerg that was stacked.. with charge and a 70% snare, 30% damage reduction for you and anyone on your team in it with you as well damage and after 3 ticks of damage a aoe stun... ya you wont wipe it alone.. but with that active..i broke the back of zergs. Something that no other stam class has a way to super support bomber groups in aoe slaughters..

I think if you really tried playing Stam Warden as much as I have since launch you would find that its pretty effective in group play.. and lets face it.. that's the bulk of pvp in ESO.. Even in dueling Wardens are very strong.. that bear is a great way to keep damage going or making the target move to avoid it allowing you to use it as a sudo-shield. Really the only Stam class I have had issues dueling are stamblades that are animation canceling, invis spaming ambushers.. and that's mainly do to lag. DK's, Stam sorcs, Stamplars I have not had an issue.. but it takes time to get the timing when to false charge, use sub assault as a range attack while cliff diver spamming and poison injecting and such.

I'm not saying Stam wardens are perfect.. but they are not near as weak as some are trying to portray them and as said.. some changes would be welcome.. the bear ult only taking 1 slot, more stam morphs.. such as I think there should be a stam swarm morph or a stam morph for Impaling Shards if not impaling shards a increase in time for Arctic Wind and a stam damage scaling morph for it.

For me Bear morph being 1 ultimate slot and Artic Wind lasting longer and having a morph scaling damage with stamina.. If they did the Artic Wind changes to last longer with a stam damage morph it would shore up the biggest issue with stam wardens that is sustain damage between combos giving them small pressure damage increase.. the issue now 10 sec and scaling off health its just not worth a slot.

I think we reached misunderstanding. It looks like you are defending wardens from me saying they are weak, but I dont mean they are weak They are actually good and I love playing my warden. While I am putting warden down, I dont mean it in a way that suggest they are weak... just that they aren't super good as some people portrait them.

Well I don't know anyone saying magic wardens are super good, or tanks.. though there 2nd best.. or healers as they are 2nd best... the only thing that people have said is that stam wardens have by far the highest burst damage in pvp.. and that burst damage is a major factor in pvp.. and that of DPS specs for Wardens Stamina DPS are in the upper end of the stam class's compared to mage wardens being dead last..

So if saying they have the highest burst is some how saying they are super the be all and end all of Stam class's... well that's not what was said.. but to many are trying to make excuses for there inability to do said burst.. As I've said it takes a lot of practice to get the most of out the class.. but that's true for all class's.. something that people have had years to prefect with other class's and trying to compare that experience with a fraction of the time playing their warden.. that's pretty much what I've been trying to say. Most of the issue being argued here is not class issues its learning to play the class most effectively issues.. you know such as some earlier in the thread using tanking healing skill in a dps role when other skills scale off stamina better and heal for a truck ton more meaning less spam and less resource use.. just a learning the class issue with some of the posts vs a innate problem with the class... other then lacking magic damage issue.

I'll say Magicka Warden is strong, not OP, but I love mine

zeus1gdsm · June 2017

Glad I'm not the only one with meh feelings about the warden. I resolved mine from healing to a magical/health tank still rocking the frost staff on back bar. But once I hit 50 it'll be straight sword and board.

UncannyLinderman · June 2017

zeus1gdsm wrote: »

And I don't really care for him as I get deeper into the class skill trees....

Initially my thought was a second healer so I could have some heals variety. Maybe a true warden/druid build for pvp purposes...

But man these delayed attacks and animations are killing me...

Then I thought frost tank/dps....

What is everyone doing with their wardens?

Or are they just doomed to be a lackluster hybrid?

I really don't want another dw/bow dps.

I'm actually only using a few skills from the warden skills, and relying more heavily on bow skills. The delay on the dive attack in animal companions and the delay in the whatever it's called with the three bug things in a straight line ahead of you work good for me. I use those then immediately hit a powerful bow skill and all three attacks tend to connect at once for massive burst damage. I use the heal from the support or assault tree (seriously blanking on skills) instead of the green balance skills, tho I do have the green balance ultimate on my buff bar. I'm also using the first ice skill for the physical and spell resist buff and the medium armor skill for evasion buff. I'm fully a stamina build with just three skills utilizing my very small magicka pool just right to be able to hit all three skills in succession without running low, and I keep my stamina sustained fairly well also, tho I REALLY need a good gear set to push my stamina over the top. Don't know if any of this helps or if anyone has any tips for my situation.
I've made it rather effective so far in dungeons, PVE and PvP.

Seraphayel · June 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

Leeching Vines is one of the best self healing skills in game. It's a skill for every role and every kind of content.

old_mufasa · June 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

Leeching Vines is one of the best self healing skills in game. It's a skill for every role and every kind of content.

umm.. no but ok..

it only heals if your hit.. so it acts more as a damage reduction ability not a heal..

Lotus and cliff racer combo with light and heavy attack weave will heal you for a tuck ton more... as cliff racer as a warden should be part of your dps spam weave. Then soothing spores is almost powerful enough that you can spot heal a group if your healer goes down.. I have done this repeatedly when a healer drops or is rezing a dps.. ill step in and heal the tank or group while the healer is down or unable to heal. Plus your gaining crit with lotus so it should be a staple skill to have slotted anyhow.. and it heals everyone with in 12 meters as well. Not having vines that is less effective frees up skill slot... with quick recovery I have I'm getting near 1500 health per light and 4000 health per heavy attack.. and it procs off bow light attacks.. that can be spammed very quickly.

The main issue with many is they think cliff racers dps is slow.. and that's a illusion.. once the your into your dps rotation you pretty can have a stead stream of cliff racers hitting your target.. its just the 1st cast.. or timing the burst in pvp is delayed.. but in pve its non issue... also its great for killing off dodge runners in pvp :-). So when you combine light and heavy weaving with cliff racer healing you with each cast.. you should have plenty of passive healing.. and like I said if you really need more self healing you will get more bank for your buck with soothing spores stam morph as you also gain regen every time you cast soothing spores through the passive natures gift.

I'm not saying you can't use it.. I'm just saying its no optimal in any way for a dps to be using it is all.. its better off your healer to cast it so your tank has it and freeing up a slot for your self with a better used skill.

Waffennacht · June 2017

I use vines for solo. As the DMG coming in is high it's a passive way to heal with a ward up.

In a dedicated group you don't need any heals (with a healer) so you can free up the slot.

Vines in PvP is pretty amazing (either version) as in PvP I get a 1k heal per hit - meaning against a 5k hit it's a 20% DMG reduction - a reduction that only IMPROVES when stacking resistance - it's one of the strongest mitigation tools out there

old_mufasa · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

I use vines for solo. As the DMG coming in is high it's a passive way to heal with a ward up.

In a dedicated group you don't need any heals (with a healer) so you can free up the slot.

Vines in PvP is pretty amazing (either version) as in PvP I get a 1k heal per hit - meaning against a 5k hit it's a 20% DMG reduction - a reduction that only IMPROVES when stacking resistance - it's one of the strongest mitigation tools out there

Ya the problem for my in pve.. as it can be effective in reducing incoming damage (the return heal from hitting the target is pretty lacking as in most group pvp your getting hit by people your not hitting) is that I just don't have room for it. I've survived much more with shuffle+sooth spore spam and dodging.. mainly when I'm counter bombing to break up a zerg with perma frost as avoiding the damage all together is even better. For pvp ya its a toss up as it effect in there is much more pronounced then pve. For dueling.. it can be real effective... but not for the heal per-say but for the mitigation of the hits.

As I said its more a mitigation tool.. then a heal. That I agree with.. but for solo content.. you just don't need.. you should be getting plenty of passive healing through lotus, cliff racer and light and heavy attacks.. and in pve you still should have some passive healing and pretty much most class do.. I keep it soothing slotted mainly because I pug a lot and well.. I just can't always trust I'm going to get a competent healer.. so I use it as a back up incase I have a bad healer.

But I solo world boss, with my medium armor stam dps warden all the time with just lotus, cliff racer and soothing spores slotted with no problems.

I was just disagreeing that vines is the best heal in the game.. that was implied.

Waffennacht · June 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I use vines for solo. As the DMG coming in is high it's a passive way to heal with a ward up.

In a dedicated group you don't need any heals (with a healer) so you can free up the slot.

Vines in PvP is pretty amazing (either version) as in PvP I get a 1k heal per hit - meaning against a 5k hit it's a 20% DMG reduction - a reduction that only IMPROVES when stacking resistance - it's one of the strongest mitigation tools out there

Ya the problem for my in pve.. as it can be effective in reducing incoming damage (the return heal from hitting the target is pretty lacking as in most group pvp your getting hit by people your not hitting) is that I just don't have room for it. I've survived much more with shuffle+sooth spore spam and dodging.. mainly when I'm counter bombing to break up a zerg with perma frost as avoiding the damage all together is even better. For pvp ya its a toss up as it effect in there is much more pronounced then pve. For dueling.. it can be real effective... but not for the heal per-say but for the mitigation of the hits.

As I said its more a mitigation tool.. then a heal. That I agree with.. but for solo content.. you just don't need.. you should be getting plenty of passive healing through lotus, cliff racer and light and heavy attacks.. and in pve you still should have some passive healing and pretty much most class do.. I keep it soothing slotted mainly because I pug a lot and well.. I just can't always trust I'm going to get a competent healer.. so I use it as a back up incase I have a bad healer.

But I solo world boss, with my medium armor stam dps warden all the time with just lotus, cliff racer and soothing spores slotted with no problems.

I was just disagreeing that vines is the best heal in the game.. that was implied.

I agree

great mitigation tool - fyi when I say "solo" I mean veteran dungeons solo where the mitigation is really helpful