So I have a warden.....

zeus1gdsm

And I don't really care for him as I get deeper into the class skill trees....

Initially my thought was a second healer so I could have some heals variety. Maybe a true warden/druid build for pvp purposes...

But man these delayed attacks and animations are killing me...

Then I thought frost tank/dps....

What is everyone doing with their wardens?

Or are they just doomed to be a lackluster hybrid?

I really don't want another dw/bow dps.

red_emu

Warden is a much more tactical class due to long casting times and animations. Once you work out a rotation it plays pretty well. Lacks tons in DPS though. Especially in PvP. Fun class but definitely needs a buff!

Integral1900

Bear in mind I'm allergic to pvp, got a doctors note and everything, I'm all pve

I'm going hybrid with shackle breaker, Necropotence, and molag kena shoulders with all the damage glyphs I can pack on. For me the issue is that the warden doesn't really do anything well, it's like waiting for a committee, I mean deep fissure I get in the sense that you hit it just before combat and that way you can open with two abilities at once plus a heavy attack I suppose but after that it just runs out of steam

Dps wise in terms of max stamina or max magica it's a total dud, litteraly every class in the game will beat it by at least twenty percent, it makes a good hybrid though because this thing is like kryptonite to the min max mob and as a hybrid it is fun to play, the class does so little damage that you don't really feel any significant loss

Tank...... just go dk and don't worry about it, I've tanked a lot of content and I can say there is nothing here that the dk doesn't do better

Healer, well.... no, it's okay I suppose but in vet dungeons and given the choice I would want a Templar every time

It's a fun class but they nerfed it into the ground, supposedly it's good in pvp but as far as I'm concerned right now that's a very small tail wagging a huge dog...

You would have to all but destroy the other classes to make warden on par in the current setup for pve, I hope they buff the ever living daylights out of this thing because until they do it will remain a pvp class, in pve there already stories of players being kicked from groups the moment it's revealed they are wardens because the bear messes with a lot of group buffs and heals and it's a massive pest in trials

Ironically people seem to prefer a dk healer to a warden as they don't have to put up with heals that sit there for a little while having a sandwich before finally doing something useful after yet another player has just been squashed

Draqone

Integral1900 wrote: »

Bear in mind I'm allergic to pvp

That's a good word to start a warden bashing post.

You are generally right of course, I am just sayin....

Anhedonie

I just keep his clunky ass away from trials and simply enjoy questing with him.

Waffennacht

Actually mine is a beast..

What you want to do is run either lightning or fire staff and destructive reach.

Use Shalk not as your CC, but as your burst After the CC.

Go Shalk, Bird (AC here, the moment to LA is when your arm is starting to withdraw from summoning the bird), Reach, AC LA

Your reach hits first knocking or stunning, then immediately the LA and Shall and Bird hit for massive burst.

Bird tooltip with just major Sorcerery is over 10k, Shalk is over 14k Destro tooltip is around 5.5 so 14k burst practically undodgeable, can do this with Northern Storm up or follow with more birds.

22-27k resistance, 1800 mag regen + Betty (300 ish Regen) and heavy Passives

Massive wards, passive healing. Trillis can heal while wards are up and for over 1k (which does equate to over 10% DMG mitigation, typically 20% on Joe shmo)

Passives that get me to what equates to 1000 Stam Regen.

Its just so good, I'll post clips and a build soon

jla15901

I have a warden tank. I don't use him for trials but for normal and veteran dungeons I have no issues with him. With my self healing and high resistances I can carry even the most worthless groups through any dungeon. The only exceptions are dungeons with execute mechanics like dranos on cos. If the group doesn't interrupt when I tell them then there isn't much that can be done.

zeus1gdsm

Yes the delays are the major downfall.. For example with shalk. You can't stack it... If I could stack three then go on to other skills in rotation it wouldn't be so bad. I could mash it 2-3 times then go onto other things.. While waiting the rest of the day for them to pop...

But you can't stack them.. U till the little circle under your feet completes itself....

Thanks for the responses glad I'm not the only one..

I think I'll just make him an aoe tank/dps.. For farming normal dungeons.

StormWylf

Waffennacht wrote: »

Actually mine is a beast...Its just so good, I'll post clips and a build soon

Would love to see your build!
I was having a blast with my Warden but it seems it just can''t keep up. and I am starting to feel the same as zeus1gdsm

zeus1gdsm wrote: »

...Or are they just doomed to be a lackluster hybrid? I really don't want another dw/bow dps.

Waffennacht

@StormWylf check out the PvP section, there are a few builds now posted. All similar with just a few variations.

My difference is I run heavy armor with a bit more emphasis on a longer TTK. Same burst tho

StormWylf

Waffennacht wrote: »

@StormWylf check out the PvP section, there are a few builds now posted. All similar with just a few variations.

My difference is I run heavy armor with a bit more emphasis on a longer TTK. Same burst tho

Thank you, I will do that.

Zardayne

I wanted to like the warden class. I always play druids and ranger types in all MMOs and RPGs but I'm having serious problems getting into the class even though I got mine to 50 already. I've tried mag (more druid like) and stamina (ranger feel) and I keep feeling like I want to log back on my stamplar. In PVP sure I've got initial burst if i'm the attacking party but if I get jumped, my main damage ability is waiting for 3 seconds to fire off..A lot can happen in 3 seconds in PVP and all it takes is to be off just a little bit and shalks is wasted if your opponent is slightly out of the cone of fire. In PVE its either the same ole same ole on magica, stacking all my aoes to melt everything down while I stay alive or on stamina it's about the same. If you decide on using the bird it's another waiting game that gives me next attack a slight delay in casting. Overall I'm just not feeling it even thought it's killing me since it's the only nature based class. Stamden or stamplar..having the choice is killing me because I feel the templar is still better.

Lieblingsjunge

Then you're not doing it right. The undodgeable, hard-hitting skill they call cliffracer is pretty OP. Combine that with the Shalk into a meteor / dawnbreaker into some other execute. Not to mention the minor protection buff, the shmmering shield for heroism, the free sorcery + magicka return from Betty Netch...

Warden's cliffracer, both magicka and stamina, can hit me for 5-7k+ -and that's on my templar with 25k+ resistances. It's just about how you build it - and on a Warden, spamming skills doesn't work. You need to time all your skills, to make sure they hit at once.

or you can run behind a large group in PvP. And spam cliffracer on everyone.

Keep_Door

I am really enjoying my warden, running full medium 2h/s&sh for pvp. I can be very tanky if i want to be and my burst damage with shalk dawnbreaker and shhh proc sets ( dont tell anyone)...

Im not going to post my build but just use your imagination

old_mufasa

I have two wardens..

Love my stam warden.. 2 hand/bow build.. if timed right with sub assault, cliff diver, crit rush with reverse slash you can blow people up as all it lands at pretty much the same time...

Now my mage warden.. well that's a different story.. I feel cost to damage on ability's is weak.. and many of the morphs are uninspired.. such as:

Scorch, deep fissure is such a weak morph, stunning 1st target hit for 3 sec on a aoe ability vs sub assault that puts major fracture and breach on the target.. the stam morph is lightyears better then the magic morph.

The word is though that wardens will be getting a buff.. so maybe they can address the lack of stam morps in the trees as well as make some of the magic morphs worth a using.

Zardayne

The one thing that bothers me and you see it all of the time is "if timed right" or "You need to time all your skills, to make sure they hit at once." If those stars do not align, well I can tell you the outcome...I haven't given up on my stamden yet but it's a different animal that's for sure and one I'm unsure about trying to continue to tame.

Gan Xing

old_mufasa wrote: »

I have two wardens..

Love my stam warden.. 2 hand/bow build.. if timed right with sub assault, cliff diver, crit rush with reverse slash you can blow people up as all it lands at pretty much the same time...

Now my mage warden.. well that's a different story.. I feel cost to damage on ability's is weak.. and many of the morphs are uninspired.. such as:

Scorch, deep fissure is such a weak morph, stunning 1st target hit for 3 sec on a aoe ability vs sub assault that puts major fracture and breach on the target.. the stam morph is lightyears better then the magic morph.

The word is though that wardens will be getting a buff.. so maybe they can address the lack of stam morps in the trees as well as make some of the magic morphs worth a using.

I hope they get a buff.

I'm running around on a hybrid warden with a sword and shield and resto staff. Keeps me alive in PvP, and I can be a good tank in PvE (while still putting out decent [15k] dps for a tank)

bebynnag

i went mag, dual destro staves, dragged its arse through vMA with level 3 undaunted & level 2 mages guild

i got a sharpened ice! so since RNG has decided to troll me i have decided to go with a troll theme for the character! any suggestions?

Stannum

I have 2 wardens
Stamina frost/bow base med. Use her in PvP and as dungeon tank (with very good as for tank DPS output)
Magicka lightning/fire. Use her as PvE DPS. Bugs-winter revenge-storm blockade lightning HA channel is greate combo to clear trash. Also is very easy to sustain. The only point i cannot deside to use or not to use destro ulti. Class frost ulti gives 8% passive magicka buff and it's really great on altmer you have about 45k magika witout any necropotence set

witchdoctor

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

... or you can run behind a large group in PvP. And spam cliffracer on everyone.

I'm not saying I did this, but, yeah, I may have done this.

There was a wall of everyone else and then 3-4 wardens just sending in squadrons of cliff racers to murderise the enemy. It was both glorious and a tad bit shameful.

ADarklore

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

old_mufasa

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

SodanTok

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp).

With warden it is super obvious, because in all content and for all roles, there is always better class. Tho the fact warden is (probably) not worst at any content or any role speaks to his advantage from different point of view.

old_mufasa

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

SodanTok

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

ADarklore

As @SodanTok noted, I'm speaking from a Solo PvE quester position. My point is, with StamSorc I need ONE skill... Critical Surge... to both increase my damage AND heal myself. With Crit Surge my health rarely drops, especially in mobs, but with StamWarden, you have to slot and use resources on multiple abilities to achieve the same result. I also find on StamWarden I have to constantly swap bars back and forth to activate utilities, not so with StamSorc... I swap once to activate Crit Surge, then back to main and never leave it as most battles last less than 33/s. I also hate using Cliff Racer because it's a very slow ability and doesn't work well against mobs... unlike Steel Tornado which procs Critical Surge. You pretty much made my point by referring to numerous skills that a StamWarden needs to utilize, unlike the 'one skill that does it all' in Crit Surge. Since I don't need to slot numerous utility skills with a StamSorc, it means more open slots for other abilities like Bound Armaments which increased both heavy attack damage AND gives a large Stamina boost... another thing StamWarden is missing, a means to boost Max Stamina. Oh wait it gets better, StamSorcs have Dark Deal as well for resource management... what does StamWarden have, a 'free' 26/s pet that gives back only about 6000 Stamina over the duration, something I can achieve with one activation of Dark Deal. Which brings me to, how many Cliff Racers can you activate to regen health with ZERO Stamina?

Waffennacht

I

ADarklore wrote: »

As @SodanTok noted, I'm speaking from a Solo PvE quester position. My point is, with StamSorc I need ONE skill... Critical Surge... to both increase my damage AND heal myself. With Crit Surge my health rarely drops, especially in mobs, but with StamWarden, you have to slot and use resources on multiple abilities to achieve the same result. I also find on StamWarden I have to constantly swap bars back and forth to activate utilities, not so with StamSorc... I swap once to activate Crit Surge, then back to main and never leave it as most battles last less than 33/s. I also hate using Cliff Racer because it's a very slow ability and doesn't work well against mobs... unlike Steel Tornado which procs Critical Surge. You pretty much made my point by referring to numerous skills that a StamWarden needs to utilize, unlike the 'one skill that does it all' in Crit Surge. Since I don't need to slot numerous utility skills with a StamSorc, it means more open slots for other abilities like Bound Armaments which increased both heavy attack damage AND gives a large Stamina boost... another thing StamWarden is missing, a means to boost Max Stamina. Oh wait it gets better, StamSorcs have Dark Deal as well for resource management... what does StamWarden have, a 'free' 26/s pet that gives back only about 6000 Stamina over the duration, something I can achieve with one activation of Dark Deal. Which brings me to, how many Cliff Racers can you activate to regen health with ZERO Stamina?

Ewwwww Stam PvE? Just ewwwww

I have fallen even deeper in love with my Magden.

Why yes, yes I have lol

old_mufasa

ADarklore wrote: »

As @SodanTok noted, I'm speaking from a Solo PvE quester position. My point is, with StamSorc I need ONE skill... Critical Surge... to both increase my damage AND heal myself. With Crit Surge my health rarely drops, especially in mobs, but with StamWarden, you have to slot and use resources on multiple abilities to achieve the same result. I also find on StamWarden I have to constantly swap bars back and forth to activate utilities, not so with StamSorc... I swap once to activate Crit Surge, then back to main and never leave it as most battles last less than 33/s. I also hate using Cliff Racer because it's a very slow ability and doesn't work well against mobs... unlike Steel Tornado which procs Critical Surge. You pretty much made my point by referring to numerous skills that a StamWarden needs to utilize, unlike the 'one skill that does it all' in Crit Surge. Since I don't need to slot numerous utility skills with a StamSorc, it means more open slots for other abilities like Bound Armaments which increased both heavy attack damage AND gives a large Stamina boost... another thing StamWarden is missing, a means to boost Max Stamina. Oh wait it gets better, StamSorcs have Dark Deal as well for resource management... what does StamWarden have, a 'free' 26/s pet that gives back only about 6000 Stamina over the duration, something I can achieve with one activation of Dark Deal. Which brings me to, how many Cliff Racers can you activate to regen health with ZERO Stamina?

Ok seems to be a learn to play the class issue here... with a whole a lot bias thrown in.

You seems to forgetting all the other effects those other skills have on Warden skills.. and for one Bull Netch is free.. and regens stamina and gives major brutality and sorcery.... Your ignoring Lotus that give over 1000 life per light attack and near 4000 life per heavy attack to you and allies with in 12 meters as well as gaining weapon or spell crit. Given that any competent DPS should be weaving light and heavy attacks through there rotation you should be getting plenty of healing just from that... If that was enough as a Stam class you can slot a heal that will heal for near 7k non crit for you and anyone in a cone in front of you if you needed even more healing.. this is a optional skill... no needed but you could slot it. And then to top it off Bird Of Prey gives 8% all damage increase, 30% movement speed and 20% stam regen increase.. so you shouldn't be running out of stamina anyhow. You also have the ability to give major resolve and major ward to your party as well minor protection to your self reducing damage by 8% to yourself through ice Fortress another optional skill that's nice to use.

This is on top of cliff racers.. and the fact you seem don't like it well that's a learn to play issue as its un-dodge and tracks the target.. so you can cast it at one target and switch to a different target.. its delay has no effect on longer fights in rotations and you can animation cancel it... making weaving it very very easy with heavy and light attacks that each time is giving you health as well when the cliff racer hits is giving you health.. its hits for 12 to 17k on crits and is cheap to use.

Dark Deal is a crutch for Stam sorcs because they lack large passive stam regen.. you don't need dark deal on a warden because your stam regen if built right will be plenty to sustain you. Also with Lotus.. I don't need stamina to get health back anyhow.. as its procing off base attacks.

As far as bar swapping.. not even sure where that came from.. you should be bar swapping every 10 sec or so no matter being a warden or stam sorc because you have to reapply poison eject and endless hail.. also the 3 primary buffs for warden that you reapply every 2 rotations (bird of prey, bull netch and lotus) also can be animation canceled making them very quick to reapply.

Both class's have there ups and downs.. As a warden you don't need to waste time dark exchanging because your regen will be plenty to sustain my with light use of heavy attacks, but there is a tad more skill needed into lining up the wardens AOE and timing takes a little bit of time to get used to. Sorcs have easier time with aoe do to hurricane being a one button wonder. But single target dps both rotations are easy to maintain.. both have good self sustaining heals...

Also both class's suffer from the same problem.. very few morphs in our trees that are stam based.. but this been a problem of stam class's since day 1.

old_mufasa

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

SodanTok

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem I'm finding with StamWarden... StamSorcs do it SO much better and easier. My favorite class pre-Morrowind was StamSorc, so Morrowind comes along and I try StamWarden... and find I have to slot TWO utilities just to get what I gain from Critical Surge. I mean seriously... have to slot Bull Netch and Leeching Vines and even then they're not even close to the healing I get from Crit Surge and Leeching Vines only lasts 10/s compared to 33/s with Crit Surge. On top of that, I have to slot and USE Green Lotus for the crit buff and further healing (to help compensate for Leeching Vines poor healing) whereas I can slot Evil Hunter on a StamSorc and never cast it thereby saving resources. Sure I could slot EH on StamWarden too, but then you lose the extra healing that you need along with casting the slow animation Leeching Vines every 10/s.

I found myself looking at the end results and thought... I'll just go back to my StamSorc because IMO it's a complete package that doesn't require constant micromanaging and extra utility skills to compensate. I know ZOS doesn't want to make 'identical' classes, but they way they did the Warden didn't make it very user friendly IMO.

Now... MagWardens on the other hand I find to be a LOT more fun than MagSorcs even if they do less damage. For me and the content I play I usually rely on Public Dungeons to test my build... both in whether or not I die or come close to dying and whether it's a FUN rotation. After playing my MagWarden off and on since Early Access, I finally have a build that I'm enjoying, albeit, it's not quite as 'robust' as MagSorc or MagPlar. I still find in some battles my health dropped extremely low and I had to resort to Enchanted Growth, something I never had to do with MagSorc (surge is a blessing) and rarely had to do with MagPlar. Of course some of that was my fault too for letting enemies get too close, MagWardens are definitely not a 'melee-friendly' class.

Why are you using leeching vines? Also leeching vines only works if you're hit by the mob while vines is active..its a tank/healer skill for tanks.. not really for dps use.

You main buffs for a stam warden are Green Lotus and bull netch.. you get healing from cliff racer with every cast from the passive Bond With Nature and every light and heavy attack. If you really needing healing you can slot Soothing Spores that heals a lot as well as healing team mates and scales of stam. the only other buffs you may use is Ice Fortress if needing the armor buff and bird of prey if not using traps or needing the speed buff.

He obviously mean it for solo play. And he is right. Sorc is just full package. You can play it anywhere and its always best or one of the best classes for that content (solo, DD in pve/pvp)

You don't use leeching for solo as well.. its not for that.. its a augment to healing for tanks.. soloing your going to get more healing with southing spores, green lotus and bond with nature...

Leeching vines has nothing in common with critical sure proc effect.. its apples to oranges.

As far as comparing Stam Warden to Stam Sorc.. Stam sorc maybe slightly ahead in pve mainly do to hurricane the longer the fight the more advantage to the stam sorc.. but in short pve fights like most non trial content is stam wardens will keep up.. but in pvp.. Stam Warden can flatten a Stam sorc do to the Stam Wardens insane burst.

I played Stam sorc as well.. yes they are strong class.. but in different ways to the stam warden.

I mean sure, you dont use leeching vines because it sux hard on stam build. Maybe not even on mag build, but that doesnt distract from the point that sorc with simple crit surge is miles above warden at self healing.

Also no fights in PVE are short. Unless by short you mean something around 30sec.... and 30sec is enough for stamsorc to just wipe the floor with warden (DPS wise) in group AND solo scenario.

And in PVP. Yeah yeah stam wardens have the best burst but not all fights start by warden doing his full preparation with gapcloser and sub and cliff and some execute to finish it off. But I havent seen proper stamwarden yet so maybe with time they will show themself to be better.

//EDIT:
Not to make it sound like complaining. Just saying the class design of sorc is just better than maybe all classes currently because you can play any content with them. Warden's advantage is he can work in any role, but he is not good for every content and not even best at any role/content contrary to all other classes.

What groups do you run with? Most trash dies in less then 10 sec.. hardly enough time to get two sub assaults in.. and know it such short fights stam sorc wont wipe the floor with a stam warden as stam wardens burst is much higher...

Another thing full preparation? I'm not sure where that comes from.. sub assault is a base dps rotation skill.. all you need to do to set up the burst even if you are already engaged in combat is hit sub assault, dodge roll away, hit cliff racer and animation cancel into crit rush... and everything will land pretty much at the same time.. and crit rush puts you right on the target for sub assault to hit.. its a real easy combo.. or you can for go the dodge roll, crit rush and do the sub assualt, dizzying swing, cliff diver, reverse slash combo... but there is no real preparation time to get that high crit combo.. pretty much like DK stam crit combo.. very easy to pull off.

I think a lot off issue with the class other then the weak pve magic damage numbers and the lack of stam morphs in the tank tree.. most of the problems is the lack of practice with the class and getting used to the delay damage ability's.. but the change to sustain as well being able to piggy back those skills to land you can pull off some insane burst and there is no real "preparation" time needed.. its just all part of the rotation and just like any class practice makes perfect.. not saying I'm perfect in my rotation.. but once your used to it its very easy to pop big burst with out having to rely on animation canceling or other such gimmicks.

Who measures PVE fights by trash fights? When it comes to DPS it is always about boss fights and sorc is just better...

I dont disagree the combo is easy to pull of, but it requires pretty obvious setup that is easy to avoid/mitigate if you are focused on him. Or maybe I just havent found good stamwarden.... which is actually right. I guess they are all in BGs or exping, maybe just my luck, but 90% of wardens in PVP CP i have met so far are magicka.

I am no good player, but when fighting warden I just know what will happen and make sure to avoid that. Dizzy swing is pretty obvious too, but given lag and clunky animations you can miss it, but when fighting warden I just always know when the burst is coming.

(I cant speak as the user of the combo, I play warden with bow main and my setup is different -> draining shot to force user to be in knockback motion while sub is popping out, pretty good results even with 3k wep dmg, but mostly because nobody ever expects draining shot)

Dakmor_Kavu

I can't speak for DPS or tank, but as a healer main I LOVE my magika warden.

In terms of raw healing power I would heavily argue that the warden stands firmly on top even above the Templar. They do sacrifice some things to get there (admittedly less unique buffs, and spears still reign supreme for tank sustain) but they can absolutely run every vet dungeon and trial. While I wouldn't take 2 wardens, they are supremely strong.

Personally I enjoy running mine in SPC/twilight remedy because the uptime on seeds (and this the bloom synergy for the group) provides for a huge uptime on the hot that the set provides putting out even more healing.

Couple that with the fact that seeds can be instant triggered and heal everyone in the area, means you can definitely compete with (or out perform) BOL with just a bit of aim.

Fungal growth is also a nice group buff and heal that's basically a copy of combat prayer with a longer duration and different buff.

Then we look at the ultimates (ignoring the joke that is the bear) and see a bunch more upsides to the warden as a healer:
The frost ultimate is a monster 30% damage reduction. Even the Templars solar prison doesn't match that. It IS worth pointing out however that it's not all sunshine, as the ultimate caps at protecting 6 people. Still though, in 4 man dungeons it's a beast.
The healing forest is simply put just *** insane when it comes to healing. 75 cost, a great burst heal and area hot, coupled with either insane ultimate generation or a second great hot (depending on what morph you take) and you have so much healing rolling it's incredible.

Yes, you have to rely on orbs and not shards, but for 4 man dungeons that's not a huge issue, and for trials as I said I would still take a warden/Templar combo just to maximize unique group buffs anyway.

Then there are the other interesting abilities a warden can bring to the table:
We have a group CC in ice shards that doesn't have a target limit.
We can provide life steal via vines.
And we can even utilize fun mobility mechanics via ice gate and pulling vines (though I mostly reserve those for PvP)