Grace of the Ancients - Should this set be buffed? (Calculations redone)

leepalmer95 · June 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

So your making a thread for a 1% max magicka buff for a set thats easier to get than willpower?

Again people use this over willpower for more than just pure damage. Magicka boosts defence, attacks, pet attacks.

So they'll lose slightly overall more dmg but gain more defence while increasing damage, its a simple trade off.

WhiteMage · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

It would actually need a bigger buff, because you can't get a base magicka value that high. Even with Imperial Physique and Necropotence, your base magicka only gets as high as 35805. Max stat food buffs can not be buffed further by stat increases so they wouldn't help you reach 40k either.

Base Magicka/Stamina at the level cap: 7958
64 attribute points into Magicka/Stamina: 7014
3 gold arcane/robust jewels: 2610
7 perfect Magicka/Stamina enchants on armor: 4008

Imperial Physique: 7224
Necropotence: 6901

Throw a load of buffs together and (if I remembers the numbers right) you can get 54k (or even higher) Magicka in that, but the base is still only about 36k.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@WhiteMage

Don't forget about armor enchantments, as well as the Mage Mundus. I've done some testing on my own sorc, and I've been able to hit about 43,580 Max Magicka prior to % buffs (With buffs i was at about 55K)

This was achieved via:
Mage Mundus
Blue Mag Food
Infused Shield
2pc Willpower
Necropotence
1pc Illambris (Impen)
1pc Infernal Guardian (Sturdy)
x7 Magicka Armor Enchantments
x3 Arcane Jewelry

Going absolutely balls out with perfect traits and enchantments I could likely get it up to 45K pre-%-buff

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@leepalmer95

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

So your making a thread for a 1% max magicka buff for a set thats easier to get than willpower?

Again people use this over willpower for more than just pure damage. Magicka boosts defence, attacks, pet attacks.

So they'll lose slightly overall more dmg but gain more defence while increasing damage, its a simple trade off.

This way it'll add in another option, sacrifice health to go even further into damage + shield defense. creating a third trade off.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

So your making a thread for a 1% max magicka buff for a set thats easier to get than willpower?

Again people use this over willpower for more than just pure damage. Magicka boosts defence, attacks, pet attacks.

So they'll lose slightly overall more dmg but gain more defence while increasing damage, its a simple trade off.

This way it'll add in another option, sacrifice health to go even further into damage + shield defense. creating a third trade off.

Why will it add a 3rd option?

Option 1 : More magicka, less dmg, more shields, higher pet dmg.

Option 2: Less magicka, higher overall dmg, less shields, less pet dmg.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@leepalmer95

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

So your making a thread for a 1% max magicka buff for a set thats easier to get than willpower?

Again people use this over willpower for more than just pure damage. Magicka boosts defence, attacks, pet attacks.

So they'll lose slightly overall more dmg but gain more defence while increasing damage, its a simple trade off.

This way it'll add in another option, sacrifice health to go even further into damage + shield defense. creating a third trade off.

Why will it add a 3rd option?

Option 1 : More magicka, less dmg, more shields, higher pet dmg.

Option 2: Less magicka, higher damage, less shields, less pet dmg.

Option 3: Greatest Magicka, higher damage, more shields, higher pet damage, less base health (being more susceptible to oblivion damage enchantments and slip ups)

WhiteMage · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

@Avran_Sylt

Counting up from zero (albeit relying on my incomplete notes and entirely fallible memory) I come up with a base Magicka from that set up to be roughly 33k. Apply undaunted, altmer, and CP bonuses to bring it up almost to 45k, before food. After food and some sorc and mage guild buffs, I get 54.6k. This assumes perfect gear (and perfect memory). What is the mage mundus value? I assumed 1319. What's the the infused trait % increase? I assumed 20%. Also, what is the Magicka from the food? I assumed 5k.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2017

Yes - But buffed in another way

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

How is this? With out any other percentage based increase, most people will cap out around 30k as far as I can tell

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@WhiteMage @lightningspeedb16_ESO

This is with a somewhat optimal setup:
64 points into magicka attribute: 16,381
Necropotence: 6,901
Blue Quality Magicka Food: 4,936
x4 Large Infused Armor Pieces (Magicka Enchantment) (Infused Shield on offhand): 4,166
182 points into the Mage CP constellation: 3,012
x3 Arcane Jewelry (Purple): 2,520
x4 Divines Armor Pieces w/The Mage Mundus: 1,664
Willpower 2pc (one hand and shield) (purple): 1,400
x4 Small Magicka Glyphs: 1,388
Infernal Guardian 1pc: 967
Illambris 1pc: 967
Ancient Grace 2pc (purple): 933

Leads to: 45,235 Max Magicka Prior to % buffs.

This could be raised ever so slightly (Green Magicka Food, Max CP, Gold Jewelry/sets)

Inarre · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

Why buff it? If willpower is better for your build, use willpower. Ez.

Ladislao · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

Let's see the other side

Willpower - Should this set be buffed?

Effective Magicka Increases (pets, shields, block don't need spell damage at all)

GotA: 933 + ((MaxMag)*0.04) Magicka
WP: 1400 Magicka

Magicka Increase Equals to one another:

933 + ((MaxMag)*0.04) = 1400
MaxMag = 11675

So Willpower is on par with Grace of the Ancients if the User is at 11675 Base Max Magicka (no other % increase bonuses).

In my opinion a Base Max Magicka of 11675 is a rather low number to reach just to make Willpower set viable (It may even be a base value of magicka for 50 level character with 33-34 points in magicka currently).

etc

Moral of this - every tool is needed for its purposes.It is necessary to look at everything from different sides.

Malamar1229 · June 2017

Other

I think the third set bonus should be changed to spell damage.

I don't understand the set's point of existence if it is brought on par with willpower. Why have two of the same sets? The whole point of the willpower/agility/endurance sets was that they were available in weapons and jewelry just as the Grace is. I would just change out the third set bonus so the user can make a choice between it or WP set.

Malamar1229 · June 2017

Other

Magıc wrote: »

Wtb potentates buff

This too.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Ladislao

A fair point, however, you're only comparing the two set bonus of Willpower, and ignoring the 3 set bonus. Converting each point of Spell Damage into Max Magicka (for every other spell used) at a rate of 10.5 Magicka per Spell Damage, yields an effective 3,384 Max Magicka for every other skill that isn't a damage shield (Or pet light attacks which are still paltry) of which there are a significantly greater amount. Meaning in order to reach this, the player will once again need 61,267.5 non-%-buffed Magicka with ancient grace in order for it to be effective in any other aspect. Overall yielding decreased performance. The only reason I'm using it right now on my sorc is for *** and giggles.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

I wear both. The GotA buff is much better after about 45k. I don't have math to back this up because I don't care that much but the break even is MUCH lower than 60k. You're missing something in your breakdown.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Other

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The underperforming crafted sets are in dire need of a buff ... and that's first priority before changing any dropped sets.

Agree wholeheartedly.

If WP offers a better result, simply use WP.

We need to get away from max stat stacking and percentage increases as the be-all-end-all.

There are dozens of changes that could be made to crafted and underused dropped sets that I would like to see first.

GoA is not broken, it's just a different alternative. All sets should be comparable, within reason. They do not have to be equal, however.

WhiteMage · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

This is with a somewhat optimal setup:
64 points into magicka attribute: 16,381
Necropotence: 6,901
Blue Quality Magicka Food: 4,936
x4 Large Infused Armor Pieces (Magicka Enchantment) (Infused Shield on offhand): 4,166
182 points into the Mage CP constellation: 3,012
x3 Arcane Jewelry (Purple): 2,520
x4 Divines Armor Pieces w/The Mage Mundus: 1,664
Willpower 2pc (one hand and shield) (purple): 1,400
x4 Small Magicka Glyphs: 1,388
Infernal Guardian 1pc: 967
Illambris 1pc: 967
Ancient Grace 2pc (purple): 933

Leads to: 45,235 Max Magicka Prior to % buffs.

This could be raised ever so slightly (Green Magicka Food, Max CP, Gold Jewelry/sets)

Ah, I see your problem. I've bolded the two erroneous sources of base magicka. Food is added after any and all magicka increases. It itself is never affected multipliers. When you eat food your health is increased by exactly the value of the food, at least as far as max stats go. As for the CP bonus, I am pretty sure that it is a percent increase, not a base increase. The morrowind patch notes state that equipping 300 CP (100 in each tree) increases your stats by 20%. I also italicised that number you used for you base magicka because I'm not entirely sure where you got it. The default base plus attribute points is 15062. It looks like you are including a racial passive (mistakenly) but that is only 8.75% higher, not 10%. Anyway, all multipliers go into the calculation last (well, except food) when you sum them up and multiply the base by (1 + sum/100). On a sorc in CP, that multiplier can fairly easily exceed 1.5, but it does take up 2 skill slots to do that. In the face of all that, the additional .04 doesn't do much.

idk · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So if im stacking magicka in order to get offence and defence why would i take willpower over grace?

Willpower has higher damage.
Grace has higher magicka, meaning both offence and defence in the form of increased shields.

Grace is also a lot easier to get so its a budget set for those that can't afford arcane willpower or don't have the dlc.

I could easily be wrong, but I understand pets damage favors max magicka

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

So your making a thread for a 1% max magicka buff for a set thats easier to get than willpower?

Again people use this over willpower for more than just pure damage. Magicka boosts defence, attacks, pet attacks.

So they'll lose slightly overall more dmg but gain more defence while increasing damage, its a simple trade off.

This way it'll add in another option, sacrifice health to go even further into damage + shield defense. creating a third trade off.

Why will it add a 3rd option?

Option 1 : More magicka, less dmg, more shields, higher pet dmg.

Option 2: Less magicka, higher damage, less shields, less pet dmg.

Option 3: Greatest Magicka, higher damage, more shields, higher pet damage, less base health (being more susceptible to oblivion damage enchantments and slip ups)

I can see your true motivations. You want this set changed so you can demonstrate a weakness with the willpower set compared to this set. Then you can start a thread to try to get willpower buffed.

@WhiteMage

You are correct that the added max stat from CP is a %.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@WhiteMage

At least with the attribute points I removed the 10% max magicka bonus of being a Breton, Originally that value was at 18,020, which I divided by 1.1 (10% Breton Passive) to reach 16,381. My breton at the moment was Level 50, CP 547, with all CP stars unallocated. I also removed all gear, and all skills from my slots. I have 18,020 Max Magicka with the Breton Passive +10%.

(D'oh! The Mage Mundus, you're right, subtract an additional 1,320 to get 15,061)

Food buffs are increased by % modifiers. I tested this once again on my Breton, who at the moment had 22,442 maximum magicka. I ate "Withered Tree In Venison Pot Roast" which increased max magicka by 4105. So if % bonuses (Breton Racial) did not impact food bonuses, I would have expected 26,547 max magicka after eating said food. I instead had a total of 26,957 , a difference of 410 magicka greater. That being 10% of the magicka increase from the food magicka buff.

I did not know that CP was a percentage, so that does need to be removed from my above additions.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Eh, in this case there is no hidden agenda.

In terms of pet damage, Pets do scale from Max Magicka, with the Twilight tormentor basic attacks scaling at 1 extra damage per 12 Maximum Magicka, and the Volatile Familiar basic attacks scaling at 1 extra damage per 51.3 Max Magicka. The Volatile Familiar Damage Pulse scales at 1 extra damage per 14.9 Max Magicka.

Grace of the ancients (when the player is at 40,000 max magicka prior to any % buffs) will give 1,133 more max magicka compared to Willpower. For pet attacks, that equates to 94 extra damage from the twilight tormentor every 2 seconds (compared to willpower), 22 extra damage from the Volatile Familiar every two seconds (via basic attacks) and 76 extra damage per pulse from the volatile familiar. For damage shields such as hardened ward (That scales at 0.48 shield points per point of Max Magicka) They gain a shield bonus of 543.84 compared to willpower.

In comparison to a skill such as crystal shards (which gains 1 extra damage per 6.7 Max Magicka, and 1 extra damage per 0.75 Spell Damage)
At 40,000 Non-%-Buffed Max Magicka, Grace of the Ancients will give that skill 378 bonus damage, Compared to Willpower which gives 461 bonus damage, or 83 points of damage more than Grace of the Ancients per second.

This is a skill unlike the pet skills which can be cast in one second, so over the course of two seconds, it's possible to deal an additional 166 damage.

While it may not seem like much of a difference, Shards is a skill that doesn't need to be slotted on both bars, allowing the player to free up a slot. At the same time willpower is a 3pc set that requires no additional sets to boost functionality. Ancient Grace needs max magicka sets in order to boost itself, which means sacrificing stamina and hp for what is arguably the best trait of Ancient Grace, increased shield power. However, 543.84 isn't much at all considering what the player needs to sacrifice in order to reach that shield bonus in comparison to willpower. While this can be used in conjunction with pets, it does require the player to use at least one slot on both bars for a pet.

Massive_Stain · June 2017

Gothren wrote: »

grace of the anchients is BIS for for all out max magicka builds.

Wrong

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@WhiteMage

Odd thing. I tested out the Mage CP bonuses with the Ancient Grace set. Seems that it does indeed apply as a base number even though it is a % increase.

Had 42,168 Magicka with No CP points. Ancient Grace gave a buff of 1,533 to 43,701. Take 42,168, divide by 1.1 (Breton Passive) and you get 38,325. 1,533 divided by 0.04 equates to 38,325, which works out.

However, after putting in CP stars into the Mage, I had 48,486 Maximum Magicka. So divide that by 1.1, and you get 44,078. Which means that the % Racial Bonus of Bretons is multiplicative with the CP bonus. I used the Ancient Grace set, and it turns out that it works the same too, it's multiplicative with the CP bonus. 48,486 -> 50250, which is a difference of 1,764, that divided by 0.04 is 44,100 (rounding errors)

So, it seems that CP Attribute increases are multiplicative with all other % based sets, not additive.

WhiteMage · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

I double checked the food thing... ya, ok, it does take percent buffs (now?). You can add it to base magicka, then. Not sure since when.

brandonv516 · June 2017

I run two toons with ancient grace so any buff to it is good with me.

My mag DK actually runs 3 piece AG and 2 piece WP. Provides a nice magicka pool with shacklebreaker.