Grace of the Ancients - Should this set be buffed? (Calculations redone)

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

Grace of the Ancients: (Purple)
+933 Max Magicka
+4% Max Magicka
Effective Spell Damage Increase: (933 + ((MaxMag)*0.04))*(2/21) = (933*(2/21)) + (MaxMag)*(4/100)*(2/21) = 88.9 + (MaxMag)*(8/2100) = 88.9 + (MaxMag)*(2/525) Spell Damage

Willpower: (Purple)
+1400 Max Magicka
+189 Spell Damage
Effective Spell Damage Increase : (1400*(2/21)) + 189 = 322.3 Spell Damage

Effective Spell Damage Increase Equal to one another:
322.3 = 88.9 + (MaxMag)*(2/525)
233.4 = (MaxMag)*(2/525)
61,267.5 = MaxMag

So Grace of the Ancients is on par with Willpower if the User is at 61,267.5 Base Max Magicka (no other % increase bonuses)

In my opinion a Base Max Magicka of 61,267.5 is a rather high number to reach just to make this set viable (It may even be impossible currently for Base Max Magicka to reach this.)

So I think that this set should see some love and have the % Max Magicka Bonus increased to +6% Max Magicka. Meaning a player will require 40,845 Base Max Magicka in order for it to compete with willpower.

This could be lowered to +5% where a Base Max Magicka of 49,014 is required.

Through Further Testing, 5% is indeed a better option.

Taleof2Cities · June 2017

Other

The underperforming crafted sets are in dire need of a buff ... and that's first priority before changing any dropped sets.

Fishoscandi · June 2017

Other

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The underperforming crafted sets are in dire need of a buff ... and that's first priority before changing any dropped sets.

I think most agree on this. But ZOS doesn't really touch crafted sets, they sometimes just nerf the BoP sets that are powerful.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2017

Yes - But buffed in another way

Your willpower calculations are skewed, most people will have only the purple version, that is 1400 magic and 189 spell damage. And the average magic ablity is calculated with a 10.5 to 1 ratio magic to spell damage. I mean it is not much but if you are trying to convince people to your side, you want to be as correct as possible.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Your willpower calculations are skewed, most people will have only the purple version, that is 1400 magic and 189 spell damage. And the average magic ablity is calculated with a 10.5 to 1 ratio magic to spell damage. I mean it is not much but if you are trying to convince people to your side, you want to be as correct as possible.

Hmm, that's good info, and a fair point. I'll have to redo the calculations.

idk · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

Looking at sets like that in a vacuum does not tell the whole story because your numbers do not take into account actual game play. There are a great many ways to increase max magicka. Total max magicka can already hit greater than 50k.

Think Necropotence which can be used by three classes for the 5 pc set. All three of these classes have can increase their max magicka by 8% then add in Mage Guild passive increasing max magicka 2% per skill and one of those skills, inner light, increases max magicka by another 5%.

It begins to become a very serious magicka stack and easily.

This set most certainly does not need a buff.

Edit: It is extremely easy for the classes that cannot use Necro to get 40k+ max magicka. I do not roll with less.

Edit: All three classes that can use Necropotence can increase their max magicka by 8%. I had stated only 2 could.

Edit: To my knowledge stam cannot stack anywhere near like magicka can.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

This set is not influenced by set bonus max magicka. the same goes for bound armor. I've yet to test with magelight but I'd assume the same.

idk · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

This set is not influenced by set bonus max magicka. the same goes for bound armor. I've yet to test with magelight but I'd assume the same.

I did not suggest it did. I accurately pointed out there is a lot of methods for increasing max magicka significantly. I know I have had in excess of 52k max magicka and it can be pushed higher. So adding another 4% means to increase max magicka with what I said becomes very significant, especially when used with sets that are extremely heavy on max magicka like Necropotence.

Unless you think reaching in excess of 54k is not that big of a deal.

EDIT: the poll, obviously, is pointless. People usually want more. We only care about balance when it tips in favor of someone else.

Beardimus · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

I think it should be fixed. It's odd that it doesn't allow for your other bonuses. Things like this, anomalies just make the game complex.

If I'm honnest i heard it was bugged but didn't fully know what till timhos post, as i had it as a good alternative to will power if you just wanted to stack Magika.

ArchMikem · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

If it gives me even moar then I'm behind it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2017

Yes - But buffed in another way

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Your willpower calculations are skewed, most people will have only the purple version, that is 1400 magic and 189 spell damage. And the average magic ablity is calculated with a 10.5 to 1 ratio magic to spell damage. I mean it is not much but if you are trying to convince people to your side, you want to be as correct as possible.

Hmm, that's good info, and a fair point. I'll have to redo the calculations.

Hey no problem. I agree with you, sets like this, that is those are are only three pieces, like Relics of the Physician ought to be brought back and buffed so it is not just will power or moondancer and aglity or VO. Though you have show that even a 6% boost would not really be enough to be better then willpower.

Gothren · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

grace of the anchients is BIS for for all out max magicka builds.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Is that 52K BASE max magicka? as in: There are no set bonuses involved, no other max magicka increasing effects. This set's 3 piece only impacts BASE max magicka, AKA: No set bonuses, Only Food, Armor Enchantments, Attributes, (Still have to test CP magicka bonus).

Right now I've got 54K max magicka, but this set only increases magicka as if I had 42K max magicka.

Through further testing it seems that the sweet spot may be 4.5%

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

Gothren wrote: »

grace of the anchients is BIS for for all out max magicka builds.

That I won't dispute. However, I think the bar for the switchover should be lowered slightly.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

So if im stacking magicka in order to get offence and defence why would i take willpower over grace?

Willpower has higher damage.
Grace has higher magicka, meaning both offence and defence in the form of increased shields.

Grace is also a lot easier to get so its a budget set for those that can't afford arcane willpower or don't have the dlc.

idk · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

Misread your last post to me.

I think you can figure out where I am getting 52k max magicka.

With the idea you are presenting you cannot ignore balance. Well, one can, but it does not lead to a productive conversation.

Cannot ignore that is a lot of magicka already.

ArchMikem · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

The people who think these things dont need a buff are the BiS min/maxers. You have 50k+ max magic? My characters are lucky to get 40k, with full undaunted mettle.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

ArchMikem wrote: »

The people who think these things dont need a buff are the BiS min/maxers. You have 50k+ max magic? My characters are lucky to get 40k, with full undaunted mettle.

Thats your choice everyone has access to the same gear.

If your want high max magicka build for it. If you want big shields build for it.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Right, I've got the Ancients Set, and I'm a breton, So let's test:

Remove all CP points, Remove all gear, clear food buffs:

I have:

18,020 Max Magicka

I have the Breton Racial, So my Base Max Magicka is:

16,381.8

Putting on a ring of Ancient Grace, Necklace of Ancient Grace, and an Aether Ring of Destruction (all purple), I get a maximum magicka bonus of:

21,818

Base being:

19,834 = (16,381 + (840*3) + 933)

I then replace the Aether Ring of Destruction with the 3rd piece of the Ancient Knowledge set, the 2nd purple ring.

22,611

The base is still 19,834

22,611 - 21,818 = 793 Bonus Magicka from the Ancient Grace 3 set bonus.

793/19634 ~ 0.04

Hmm, seems you're right, it does at least scale correctly with set bonuses (933 included was from the 2 set bonus of ancient grace purple)

So, on that note, it seems that it does indeed work as intended, as it doesn't multiply with only % increase effects (such as the breton racial.

However, that does mean that for this set to be viable, it requires 61,267.5 magicka without any % buffs already added, which I think is unfeasible. Sitting at 44K (subtracted the breton passive) with Necropotence active, 2pc willpower (sword and board for infused shield), Infernal Guardian head, illambris shoulders. That's using non-optimal setup, I could likely juice out a couple thousand more points of magicka. Won't even get me close to that mark. So while 6% is indeed much too overpowered, 5% would be much more in line, though it requires an absolute full +mag build.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2017

Yes - But buffed in another way

These sets are the ones that ought to be brought back and buffed to make them viable, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Weapon_Sets.

Though I will say out of all of them, only grace and Potentates are the only two that are even close to being viable.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Right, I've got the Ancients Set, and I'm a breton, So let's test:

Remove all CP points, Remove all gear, clear food buffs:

I have:

18,020 Max Magicka

I have the Breton Racial, So my Base Max Magicka is:

16,381.8

Putting on a ring of Ancient Grace, Necklace of Ancient Grace, and an Aether Ring of Destruction (all purple), I get a maximum magicka bonus of:

21,818

Base being:

19,834 = (16,381 + (840*3) + 933)

I then replace the Aether Ring of Destruction with the 3rd piece of the Ancient Knowledge set, the 2nd purple ring.

22,611

The base is still 19,834

22,611 - 21,818 = 793 Bonus Magicka from the Ancient Grace 3 set bonus.

793/19634 ~ 0.04

Hmm, seems you're right, it does at least scale correctly with set bonuses (933 included was from the 2 set bonus of ancient grace purple)

So, on that note, it seems that it does indeed work as intended, as it doesn't multiply with only % increase effects (such as the breton racial.

However, that does mean that for this set to be viable, it requires 61,267.5 magicka without any % buffs already added, which I think is unfeasible. Sitting at 44K (subtracted the breton passive) with Necropotence active, 2pc willpower (sword and board for infused shield), Infernal Guardian head, illambris shoulders. That's using non-optimal setup, I could likely juice out a couple thousand more points of magicka. Won't even get me close to that mark. So while 6% is indeed much too overpowered, 5% would be much more in line, though it requires an absolute full +mag build.

Are you sure it only affects base magicka?

Your racials effect set bonuses and attributes and such.

Yarlenzey · June 2017

No - Leave it as it is

Stop asking for things to be changed.

If this set doesn't work for you as it is, then you're always free to USE SOMETHING ELSE.
It could just be, that this set was made this way to make you look for something better.

Continual change (not improvement) is most of this game's problem.

Bombashaman · June 2017

Other

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The underperforming crafted sets are in dire need of a buff ... and that's first priority before changing any dropped sets.

This.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2017

I don't think any set should a not-crafted set. What I mean to say is that I feel we should be able to craft any set in the game as long as we have the required special materials of that set. In the case of Monster Helms for instance they could just as easily have a stone/bone/shell/alchemical piece that would fill in the role of the helmet, and could perhaps be broken out of a helmet. I really wish crafting were more interesting than it is but much as I expected as Dungeon/Trialgoing progressed the crafted stuff became more and more useless. I've seen this trend before in other games like Star Wars TOR.

NBrookus · June 2017

Yes - But buffed in another way

This set should be brought up to par with Willpower as a 3 piece set. Maybe it gives more raw magicka, but is equivalent in spell damage so that Grace might be preferred by magicka users with shields whereas Willpower suit non-shield users (like DKs and templars) better.

Alternately, they could expand it to 5 pieces; there are so few 3 piece sets left I'm not sure they want them around at all.

RoyJade · June 2017

Grace of the Ancien shouldn't be as powerful as willpower, simply because max magicka also add ustain (more spell) and more importantly more damage for sorc pets and bigger shields. If they were equal in term of raw damage, grace of the ancient would be far more powerful for nearly everyone in reality.

Lord_Eomer · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

ZOS not care about player thoughts, i would happy to see ZOS highliting issues mitigated as solution proposed by forum community.

Its going to be a dream comes true for having 6% magicka buff!

Juhasow · June 2017

The poroblem is You count oinly dmg increase and forgot that shields and certain skills scales only of max magicka and for those Ancient grace is better then willpower.

ParaNostram · June 2017

Yes - To a 6% Increase

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

The underperforming crafted sets are in dire need of a buff ... and that's first priority before changing any dropped sets.

I mean on this line of thought I'd like to see some 9 trait crafted sets that are good for magicka builds. I mean, come on, there's Eternal Hunt and Morkuldin for stamina, Pelinal for hybrid, and Twice Born Star which is just good for anyone. Can we have something cool for mages?

Magıc · June 2017

Wtb potentates buff

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@leepalmer95

I'll have to extensively test this, but it seems that Grace of the Ancients works just as every other % max Magicka bonus. In that it is applied additively alongside all other %max magicka bonuses.

This means that it will indeed scale with set bonuses (as noted in the post you quoted, I was wrong in that regard), however in order to be on par with willpower the player will need 61,267 Max Magicka solely from flat set bonuses/food/enchantments/attributes prior to any other % buffs (Racial, Mages Guild, Class Based % Increases, to be as effective as Willpower in terms of raw damage.

While 6% turns out to be too much of a buff (lowering the max base magicka required to 40,845 which in my opinion is easily achievable), 5% is a step in the right direction (49,014 Max Magicka (without any % bonuses)

The Elder Scrolls Online

Grace of the Ancients - Should this set be buffed? (Calculations redone)

Grace of the Ancients - Should this set be buffed? (Calculations redone) 85 votes