Should the Bow Skill Line be Spread out into a Longbow/Shortbow Skill Line (Add Quiver?)

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

Mainly since this would add a little more variety, it would allow the devs to add in a few more skills for bows and whatnot.

This is the General Idea:

Quivers

Quivers are slotted into the off-hand weapon slot. They can be crafted at the Woodworking Station. They provide a small defensive bonus, can be enchanted with an armor enchantment, and can be created with armor traits.

Quiver Types:
Broadhead
Crescent
Bodkin

Bows : General

Bows: Now only constitute as one item, both in regards to traits, as well as set pieces. they can be enchanted with weapon enchantments and can be created with weapon traits.

Shortbow: Characteristics of rapid firing, low damage, AoE, mobile. (instant cast abilities and displacements)
Longbow: Characteristics of slow firing, high damage, Single Target. (channeled abilities and high damage attacks)

Shortbow: base weapon damage value of 1335 (Gold Quality), Has a light and heavy attack.
Longbow: base weapon damage value of 1571 (Gold Quality), Can Only Heavy Attack

Shortbow Skill Tree

Ult (Rapid Fire): (Ballista morph deals less damage, but has reduced cost)
Single Target Spammable (Double Shot): Morph 1: (Triple Shot) Morph 2; (Slight of Hand)

Double Shot: Quickly knock another arrow to hit an enemy with two, each dealing [x] damage
Triple Shot: Quickly knock two more arrows to hit an enemy with three, each dealing [x] damage
Slight of Hand: Toggle: light attacks knock an additional arrow at the cost of [x] stamina.

Ground AoE DoT(Volley):
AoE(Arrow Spray):
Single Target Effect (Scatter Shot):
Empower (Major Brutality) (Nimble Movement): Morph 1: (Ranger's Gait) Morph 2: (Fluid Steps)

Nimble Movement: Removes snares and immobilization's while granting Major Brutality
Ranger's Gait: Also applies Minor Expedition to the player.
Fluid Steps: Grants immunity to snares and roots for a short duration.

Passive 1: Accuracy
Passive 2: Hasty Retreat
Passive 3: Stam cost reduction (Ranger)
Passive 4: Flying Edge

Flying Edge I:
With a Bow and Quiver Equipped:
Broadhead: Deal 3% more damage to all targets.
Crescent: Bow abilities have an 8% chance to cause targets to bleed for [x] damage over 6 seconds.
Bodkin, Ignores 10% of the targets Physical Resistance.

Flying Edge II:
With a Bow and Quiver Equipped:
Broadhead: Deal 5% more damage.
Crescent: Bow abilities have a 16% chance to cause targets to bleed for [x] damage over 6 seconds.
Bodkin, Ignores 20% of the targets Physical Resistance.

Passive 5: Continuous Movement (name needs work)

Rank I : Decrease the movespeed penalty while heavy attacking by 50%

Rank II : Decrease the movespeed penalty while heavy attacking by 100%

.

Longbow Skill Tree

Ult (Snipe): Morph 1: (Auger) Morph 2: (Piercing Snipe)

Snipe: draw and fire an expertly placed, powerful shot, dealing [x] damage
Auger: draw and fire an expertly placed, powerful shot that deals damage to all targets in a line until max range
Piercing Snipe: draw and fire an expertly placed, powerful shot that ignores all resistances (including block, and player shields)

Single Target Spammable (Full Draw): Morph 1: (Over Draw) Morph 2: (Splinter Shot)

Overdraw: Quickly draw your bow fully, dealing [x] damage to a single target
Over Draw: Quickly draw your bow as far as possible, dealing [x] damage to a single target, and dealing up to 10% more damage based on your distance (closer deals more damage).
Splinter Shot: Recklessly draw your bow, splintering the arrow on impact dealing [x] damage to the target, and [y] bleed damage damage over [z] seconds.

Single Target DoT(Poison Arrow):

AoE: (Explosive Arrow): Morph 1:(Concussive Arrow) Morph 2: (Combusting Arrow)

Explosive Arrow: Deals [x] damage to a single target, and [y] damage to nearby enemies.
Concussive arrow: Knocks down the target
Combusting arrow: Applies a fire damage over time effect.

Single Target Effect (Crippling Shot): Morph 1: (Vital Shot) Morph 2: (Perfect Shot)

Crippling Shot: Place an arrow in the joint of an enemy, rooting them for [x] seconds and dealing [y] damage.
Vital Shot: Place an arrow in a vital part of the enemy, rooting them for [x] seconds, dealing [y] damage, and causing [z] bleed damage over [x] seconds
Perfect Shot: Place an arrow in the joint of an enemy, rooting them for [x] seconds and dealing [y] damage. Always Crits.

Empower (Major Brutality) (Focus Target): Morph 1: (Piercing Gaze) Morph 2: (Broadened Gaze)

Focus Target: mark a target, increasing your ability and attack range by [y]m while also granting Major Brutality
Piercing Gaze: Now also prevents the marked target from entering stealth for [x] seconds
Broadened Gaze: Applies the mark to 2 nearby targets (to the initial target.

Passive 1: War Bow

Rank I: Longbow Abilities ignore 1986 Physical Resistance

Rank II: Longbow Abilities ignore 3972 Physical Resistance

Passive 2: Long Shots
Passive 3: Stam cost reduction (Archer)
Passive 4: Flying Edge

Flying Edge I:
With a Bow and Quiver Equipped:
Broadhead: Deal 3% more damage to all targets.
Crescent: Bow abilities have an 8% chance to cause targets to bleed for [x] damage over 6 seconds.
Bodkin, Ignores 10% of the targets Physical Resistance.

Flying Edge II:
With a Bow and Quiver Equipped:
Broadhead: Deal 5% more damage.
Crescent: Bow abilities have a 16% chance to cause targets to bleed for [x] damage over 6 seconds.
Bodkin, Ignores 20% of the targets Physical Resistance.

Passive 5: Draw Strength (name needs work)

Rank I : Increases the range of your longbow abilities by [x]m

Rank II: Increases the range of your longbow abilities by [2x]m

geonsocal · June 2017

Yeah - The proposed system could be interesting

actually, thinking about it a little more - there is some decent variety already incorporated in to the bow skill line...

although, i do like that specialized "quiver" thought...having it count as 2 slots would be pretty awesome also...

while were at it - let's add the old wand and shield set up...

joaaocaampos · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

Bow and Crossbow skil lines.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@joaaocaampos

Or: Shortbow/Longbow and Light Crossbow/ Heavy Crossbow

Though just Crossbow/bow would be a hell of a lot simpler.

ArchMikem · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

I want a Crossbow.

Zardayne · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

I'd say bow and crossbow

leepalmer95 · June 2017

It would be hard to do considering everything has a 1gcd?

What would you do make crossbow hit harder but attack slower, but you'd change the only constant in this game.

Longbow - Longer range, you dont need longer range this also brings in some balance issues, snipe is an annoying skill as it is now because of its insane range.

Faster attack speed for shortbow? Less dmg.

Im not sure how you would implement this, Would i quiver mean you'd only have a certain amount of arrows before repairing.

Jusey1 · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

Either Bow & Crossbow or rename Bow to Archery so that it covers Crossbow as well. Though I prefer the former because Crossbows are too different from normal bows and will require a lot different abilities.

I really want crossbows. Am hoping they'll be metal too, not wood.

dsalter · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

crossbow, throwing weapons (knives, stars, darts etc) are things i want to see as a whole skill line of its own called "hunter" which also has its own traps and focuses on ganking, like a NB but not as potant as the class skills so it gives others the ability to play a propper stealther as well as opening a new weapon line

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@leepalmer95

check the spoiler tag on the main post.

idk · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

The idea presented seems rather boring. Something more interesting and practical to give the two bow lines greater identity or merely keep the existing skill line and modify the damage via maybe one passive based on which one of the weapons were being used. As presented I would have to go with keep it as it is.

zergbase_ESO · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

No... Just no. Stop trying add more loot items in already messy RNG loot drop system... Like seriously stop it. STAPH!

idk · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

zergbase_ESO wrote: »

No... Just no. Stop trying add more loot items in already messy RNG loot drop system... Like seriously stop it. STAPH!

OMG, did not think about that. Weapons already have the worst drop rate in the game. We do not need to add more weapons to the already horrendous RNG we deal with just to get one we can use. Do not water down the loot tables.

TheShadowScout · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

No to splitting the skill line.

Yes to giving archers more choices!

I mean, warriors generally have a choice between sword, axe and mace (occasionally dagger too), why shouldn't marksmen get some choice in their weapon selection as well?

I say, keep the skill line as it is, but tweak some of the skills to be different depending on weapon used, then add some more weapons - at the very least I would want to see a crossbow (maybe with increased armor penetration, but a "reload" time after each shot?), possibly a longbow as well, maybe even a sling...

KochDerDamonen · June 2017

Physical/Bleeding/Poisoned arrows?

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@TheShadowScout

Hmm, so something like how the destruction staff skill line works? I could see that. Could be messy though. I'll have to redo this in such a fashion. Probably take the 5th passive of each and have it augment the basic attacks.

@zergbase_ESO

That is true, but In my opinion the drop rates need to be tweaked for weapons, especially if ZoS ever wants to add in more weapons into the game. However, that is another topic that needs to be discussed.

@KochDerDamonen

Poisoned is already covered by weapon poisons, bleeding would be covered by Crescent, Physical covered by Broadhead, Bodkin for Anti-Armor.

NyassaV · June 2017

Yeah - The proposed system could be interesting

With the introduction of the warden a bow/bow pet build actually becomes partially viable in endgame content. I am not a DPS master but I've been able to score 28.3k DPS on a 3 mill dummy with a bow/bow pet set up and I have completed vet HRC and vet AA. I would appreciate it if ZoS give the bow some baby buffs to help actually get people to the 30k marker but I wouldn't mind seeing a introduction of new bows, it would add more variety to play styles

idk · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@KochDerDamonen

Poisoned is already covered by weapon poisons, bleeding would be covered by Crescent, Physical covered by Broadhead, Bodkin for Anti-Armor.

If you are speaking of alchemy poisons they are irrelevant to discussion weapon line designs as the weapon line themselves must be of good design on their own.

Took a second glance at the skills for your treatment of poison arrow and you basically destroyed it's significant usefulness.

Both morphs for that skill offer great choices. An interrupt, which I think is the only ranged interrupt stamina has. I did not see an interrupt with any other skills.

Venom Arrow, iirc, is the only ranged interrupt and does decent damage. Knockdowns and knockbacks are not truly interrupts since the interrupt will not occur when they have immunity and the mere use of the skill grants immunity.

Poison Injection does decent damage from the start and damage is increased after the target is below 50% health. Basically the only execute bow has. Quickly looking at your skills for a third and fourth time I do not see an execute.

You have removed a major utility skill and the execute from the skill line. Both bow ideas are DoA without them as all three stamina damage weapons have executes either from skills or passives.

Being that this is the third time you have started this discussion in just the past two months, second for this month, I would have expected a more complete design and understanding about what is good with the current weapon line.

Edit: back to what I quoted, poison with weapons could be good for PvE. WWs are vulnerable to poisons and there is not much of it in the game. iirc, alchemy poisons do not count for that. ofc, most of the time WWs are not in form or vulnerable.

Further, took a quick fifth look and it appears you have also removed any access to defile. It is part of Lethal Arrow, morph of Snipe, and is very effective in PvP.

idk · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

Hollery wrote: »

With the introduction of the warden a bow/bow pet build actually becomes partially viable in endgame content. I am not a DPS master but I've been able to score 28.3k DPS on a 3 mill dummy with a bow/bow pet set up and I have completed vet HRC and vet AA. I would appreciate it if ZoS give the bow some baby buffs to help actually get people to the 30k marker but I wouldn't mind seeing a introduction of new bows, it would add more variety to play styles

@Hollery Have seen a bow build in http://tamrielfoundry.com/ that was pulling almost 40k unbuffed on the test dummy. Think it was under the NB section. It as a bow/bow build.

While it did use a Master bow and vMA bow, most meta builds basically test it with BiS, but it shows it is possible. Also, a master bow is more obtainable and would help overall. More obtainable, though still RNG.

Basically, Bow has been viable dps wise, but few have bothered to attempt a build with it and it may align better with the NB.

leepalmer95 · June 2017

@Avran_Sylt

Oh no you can't have different skill tree's for the, they'd have to be in line with current skill layouts.

If anything you could change a passive to be like the staffs, 2h, dw where axe/sharp/dagger/ fire/ light etc.. change the particular passive.

So crossbow - 5% more dmg
Longbow - increase range by 5m?
Shortbow - Small dots chance like axe?

Ir0nB34r · June 2017

Nah - Leave Bows as they currently are

I think the chances of new weapons and related skill lines being added to the game are very, very tiny.

No offense, but the idea seems too tedious.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Perfect, this is the exact kind of constructive feedback I'd have hoped for in the previous two posts of this. Both of which had near zero input from any other players. I don't use the bow much aside from backbarring it to DW. So the reason that there hasn't been much progression is because I honestly haven't put too much play time into a solo bow build. Do I personally care about more horizontal play with the bow? No, not really. But I do think it'd be better for the game as a whole. So thanks a bunch for actually replying with something other than "I want a corssbow". This, in conjunction with @TheShadowScout and @leepalmer95 has given me some stuff to consider. such as a way to have them work in a similar fashion to destro staff/dw to simplify the skill tree. The RNG aspect will still need to be considered at a later date.

TheShadowScout · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, so something like how the destruction staff skill line works? I could see that. Could be messy though. I'll have to redo this in such a fashion. Probably take the 5th passive of each and have it augment the basic attacks.

Indeed, very much like that.

I am thinking about differences in both skill use, and weapon effect.

Like for example...

-Shortbows (current design) : Increased critical chance on light attack only

-Longbows : Gain extra range on fully charged heavy attack, gain bonus damage on all attacks, but skills have increased stamina cost (those bows take quite some effort to draw after all)

-Crossbows : Have no light attack, fire fully charged heavy attack without chargeup by default, gain increased armor penetration but have a "reload" time after each attack (basic or skill) equal to full chargeup time (means they may just be reloading when you really want to fire a few quick light attacks or spam skills, and thus tactically more limited then bows). Skills do disease damage instead of poison.

-Slings : Have no heavy attack, but all skill stamina costs are reduced. Skills might do fire damage instead of poison (alchemical sling bullets that release fire spells), or possibly even different damage types depending on stone type... May do extra damage against giants (its a biblical thing)...

Something like that anyhow.
(And the skill line renamed to fit... something like "Marksmanship" perhaps?)

The Quiver idea I am not so keen on, seeing how bows have the lack of a offhand trait and set slot to balance their advantage of range (even though they often don't really get to exploit that advantage). If that drawback was elimimnated, bows would need to suffer some other drawback to balance again... though I suppose it -could- be done... and would have advantages all on its own.

I would like the idea of different arrow/bolt/stone type quivers giving more build flexibility though... like "extra armor-piercing" (bodkin) arrows & bolts as opposed to "extra bleed damage" leafblade broadhead arrows & bolts... sling stones on the opther hand could come in different enchantments instead (see above), giving players choices of fire, lightning or freeze enchantments to be released by special sling stones (skill use!) with matching secondary effects...

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, so something like how the destruction staff skill line works? I could see that. Could be messy though. I'll have to redo this in such a fashion. Probably take the 5th passive of each and have it augment the basic attacks.

Indeed, very much like that.

I am thinking about differences in both skill use, and weapon effect.

Like for example...

-Shortbows (current design) : Increased critical chance on light attack only

-Longbows : Gain extra range on fully charged heavy attack, gain bonus damage on all attacks, but skills have increased stamina cost (those bows take quite some effort to draw after all)

-Crossbows : Have no light attack, fire fully charged heavy attack without chargeup by default, gain increased armor penetration but have a "reload" time after each attack (basic or skill) equal to full chargeup time (means they may just be reloading when you really want to fire a few quick light attacks or spam skills, and thus tactically more limited then bows). Skills do disease damage instead of poison.

-Slings : Have no heavy attack, but all skill stamina costs are reduced. Skills might do fire damage instead of poison (alchemical sling bullets that release fire spells), or possibly even different damage types depending on stone type... May do extra damage against giants (its a biblical thing)...

Something like that anyhow.
(And the skill line renamed to fit... something like "Marksmanship" perhaps?)

The Quiver idea I am not so keen on, seeing how bows have the lack of a offhand trait and set slot to balance their advantage of range (even though they often don't really get to exploit that advantage). If that drawback was elimimnated, bows would need to suffer some other drawback to balance again... though I suppose it -could- be done... and would have advantages all on its own.

I would like the idea of different arrow/bolt/stone type quivers giving more build flexibility though... like "extra armor-piercing" (bodkin) arrows & bolts as opposed to "extra bleed damage" leafblade broadhead arrows & bolts... sling stones on the opther hand could come in different enchantments instead (see above), giving players choices of fire, lightning or freeze enchantments to be released by special sling stones (skill use!) with matching secondary effects...

At that point (at least with slings) I'd probably suggest creating a thrown weapon skill line.The sling in itself is a completely different animal from a loosed bolt/arrow, but it's interesting. For the shortbow though, the critical rating would best be tied to all abilities, not just light attacks (think of it as the dagger).

Runschei · June 2017

Yeah - But implemented in a different way

Just give me back the old bow heavy attack

The Elder Scrolls Online

Should the Bow Skill Line be Spread out into a Longbow/Shortbow Skill Line (Add Quiver?)

Should the Bow Skill Line be Spread out into a Longbow/Shortbow Skill Line (Add Quiver?) 69 votes