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ESO Guild trading system
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
Next they'll claim that we never played Gw1 and say it had an Auction House lol.
eh?Edited by Linaleah on June 10, 2017 11:34PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
True about not all of them requiring a weekly quota but how many of those are not in prime spots
IE: Underground, out of no where with hardly any business?
For starters, probably a great many in decent spots have no or small requirements. Small requirements being as long as they are selling SOMETHING their have no issues. The guild I am in has a low requirement and I can tell you from the time I have been in it that if someone does not make their quota for that week they are not gkicked since the history that they have been selling is known.
Of course if it is a long stretch or they are not logging in they will get kicked but that is obviously naturally to be expected. Even my raiding guild kicks those that do not participate with the guild so it is clear who is likely to join raids and who is just there because.
And BTW, my raiding guild grabs spots for the minimum bid and stuff sells pretty good from there so your reasoning is still flawed.Edited by idk on June 10, 2017 11:37PM1 -
Drelkag✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
From my experience - EVE with system markets, FFXI with nation AHs (before they changed it and it went horribly wrong), ESO with guild stores - they all have a more stable economy where people can't control the entire market for a single item and jack up the prices or create artificial supply/demand. They have an overall more stable economy because of it.Edited by Drelkag on June 10, 2017 11:40PM@drelkag on the NA server2 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
Next they'll claim that we never played Gw1 and say it had an Auction House lol.
eh?
Just saying they know every single MMO there is on the market and know everything about it, oh and btw Gw1 had no auction house if you ever played it.Edited by Cpt_Teemo on June 10, 2017 11:42PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
I have a feeling that clearly you prefer current system becasue you find it EASIER to manipulate.
This is the weakest point possible. It is laughable when someone tries to put down/discredit the other person. LOL
When that is your major point you start out with then there really is not much point discussing the topic with you since you want to sling mud.2 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
I have a feeling that clearly you prefer current system becasue you find it EASIER to manipulate.
This is the weakest point possible. It is laughable when someone tries to put down/discredit the other person. LOL
When that is your major point you start out with then there really is not much point discussing the topic with you since you want to sling mud.
Talk about irony, you already slung mud within your response, even before getting to the point of slinging mud nice.Edited by Cpt_Teemo on June 10, 2017 11:46PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game that STAYED in the game. they let people print money indefinitely.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.Edited by Linaleah on June 10, 2017 11:48PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Drelkag✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region based markets help that. It seems you assumed I said region based markets help against inflation overall? I only suggested they help against players controlling an item and jacking the price up far more than what it's worth.Edited by Drelkag on June 10, 2017 11:52PM@drelkag on the NA server0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region-based markets help that.
why did I reload, why. /facepalm. cartel market items were tradable for YEARS. YEARS before economy crashed. for YEARS you could be a preferred or even free player and easily afford to buy weekly flashpoint/ops/warzone passes, becasue they were selling for about 100k each, half the limit for free players, third of a limit for preferred.. for YEARS it was stable and active WITH cartel items. packs sold for an average of 150k per pack for old ones, 300k - for just released ones for YEARS. it wasn't until patch 4.0 that things rapidly crashed. becasue of the credit exploit. becasue of the changes to quest rewards. your ability to ignore evidence is staggering.Edited by Linaleah on June 10, 2017 11:53PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Drelkag✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region-based markets help that.
why did I reload, why. /facepalm. cartel market items were tradable for YEARS. YEARS before economy crashed. for YEARS you could be a preferred player and easily afford to buy weekly flashpoint/ops/warzone passes. for YEARS it was stable and active WITH cartel items. packs sold for an average of 150k per pack for old ones, 300k - for just released ones for YEARS. it wasn't until patch 4.0 that things rapidly crashed. becasue of the credit exploit. becasue of the changes to quest rewards. your ability to ignore evidence is staggering.
My point was Bioware didn't control the economy as well as Zenimax and cartel items weren't tied to the market before things went out of hand. It only got worse after, yeah. What evidence am I ignoring? I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue now tbh.Edited by Drelkag on June 10, 2017 11:54PM@drelkag on the NA server1 -
Jamascus✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
^0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region-based markets help that.
why did I reload, why. /facepalm. cartel market items were tradable for YEARS. YEARS before economy crashed. for YEARS you could be a preferred player and easily afford to buy weekly flashpoint/ops/warzone passes. for YEARS it was stable and active WITH cartel items. packs sold for an average of 150k per pack for old ones, 300k - for just released ones for YEARS. it wasn't until patch 4.0 that things rapidly crashed. becasue of the credit exploit. becasue of the changes to quest rewards. your ability to ignore evidence is staggering.
My point was Bioware didn't control the economy as well as Zenimax and cartel items weren't tied to the market before things went out of hand. It only got worse after, yeah. What evidence am I ignoring? I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue now tbh.
oh, my. god. cartel market items were tied to the market long before economy crash. what bioware didn't control was fixing of the *** glitches. they allowed people to print credits like crazy, for MONTHS before they fixed that exploit. and vast VAST majority of those credits? was NOT removed out of the economy, because by the point it shifted hands so many times it was damn near impossible to tell which credits were legit and which were created via exploit.
imagine for a moment that in ESO, you can fence the same item indefinitely. with no limit to how many times. and ZOS takes MONTHS to fix it. it doesn't matter how many scattered traders you have. even if trader fees go up, they will not compensate nearly enough for hyper inflation that will be cause by that one exploit being allowed to go unchecked for months. this is not about control of economy. its about fixing bugs. THIS is the evidence you are ignoring. you are trying to claim that cartel market trading was not going on before that point of credit influx. it was. you are trying to claim that centralized auction house caused it, when it was in game since launched and worked just fine for YEARS.
you are trying to create causation where there's barely even correlation. I'm arguing that ESO economy being relatively stable is NOT due to its trading system. its DESPITE it.Edited by Linaleah on June 11, 2017 12:01AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Drelkag✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region-based markets help that.
why did I reload, why. /facepalm. cartel market items were tradable for YEARS. YEARS before economy crashed. for YEARS you could be a preferred player and easily afford to buy weekly flashpoint/ops/warzone passes. for YEARS it was stable and active WITH cartel items. packs sold for an average of 150k per pack for old ones, 300k - for just released ones for YEARS. it wasn't until patch 4.0 that things rapidly crashed. becasue of the credit exploit. becasue of the changes to quest rewards. your ability to ignore evidence is staggering.
My point was Bioware didn't control the economy as well as Zenimax and cartel items weren't tied to the market before things went out of hand. It only got worse after, yeah. What evidence am I ignoring? I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue now tbh.
oh, my. god. cartel market items were tied to the market long before economy crash. what bioware didn't control was fixing of the *** glitches. they allowed people to print credits like crazy, for MONTHS before they fixed that exploit. and vast VAST majority of those credits? was NOT removed out of the economy, because by the point it shifted hands so many times it was damn near impossible to tell which credits were legit and which were created via exploit.
imagine for a moment that in ESO, you can fence the same item indefinitely. with no limit to how many times. and ZOS takes MONTHS to fix it. it doesn't matter how many scattered traders you have. even if trader fees go up, they will not compensate nearly enough for hyper inflation that will be cause by that one exploit being allowed to go unchecked for months. this is not about control of economy. its about fixing bugs. THIS is the evidence you are ignoring. you are trying to claim that cartel market trading was not going on before that point of credit influx. it was. you are trying to claim that centralized auction house caused it, when it was in game since launched and worked just fine for YEARS.
you are trying to create causation where there's barely even correlation.
SWTOR had inflation problems far worse than ESO before cartel items came around. Not as bad as the glitch you're talking about but still pretty bad at handing out credits like candy.
What am I trying to correlate? I never suggested cartel trading was not going on before that glitch. I never suggested a central AH done that. The only thing I suggested about a central AH is that it helps against undercutting/controlling a single items market.Edited by Drelkag on June 11, 2017 12:04AM@drelkag on the NA server1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
I have been an open beta GW2 player. Its market is as exploitable as WoW's is, in fact I've contributed with my finance background to the first website where someone could look at gold vs gems (and later, other items). gw2spidy.com. Later, the developer removed my suggested "Japanese candlestick" prices representation but the base functionality is still the same.
Those single point of failure markets are so easily taken over. You probably get your own items manipulated by people like me all the time and don't even notice. We drive prices up and down, so you gift us your stuff and then we resell with a nice markup.
Believe me, if I could put my filthy hands on ESO's markets like I did on GW2 and WoW, the game would be far less profitable for you
except people do it in ESO markets. all. the. time. manipulating the prices, buying low and selling high, and because spaces for trading are far more limited - monopolizing is far FAR easier. less competition to deal with.
This is not market manipulation. These are children's tricks to make a good penny.
Market Manipulation would be me (and many others) when I put orders for 300 billions in EvE Online and could move even some fairly liquid markets to my whims.
I simply cannot do so in ESO. I can shift a number of crappy 10k-100k items, but the extent of the manipulation ends within the small active community of the trading guild. In WoW a market maker can move 1000+ times more, with the same effort and time needed in ESO.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
I have a feeling that clearly you prefer current system becasue you find it EASIER to manipulate.
edited to add. I know for a fact that major guilds have not only multiple guilds with multiple accounts in multiple trading spots as well as allied guilds, a lot of them don't even bother to hide it, by naming their sister guilds the same name, with a number next to them (you know guild 1, guild 2, guild 3), or very similar names. because I understand this system and have been using it well enough to at this point to stop stealing for gold and get most of my gold from guild sales is part of the reason I dislike it even more. because I'm seeing how abused and abusive it can get. and how exclusionary to anyone who doesn't log in daily and doesn't go through specific motions to keep it going.
So, you'd want to enforce on everybody a system that makes blatant and official what wrong are doing prominent guilds right now?Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Jamascus✭✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »The guild system is a toxic, shady racket. Mix in gold sellers, bot alts, shady bank deposits, and 10k weekly du-extortion for the "privilege" to sell your items.
People keep bringing it up because the current system is absurd.
^0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region-based markets help that.
why did I reload, why. /facepalm. cartel market items were tradable for YEARS. YEARS before economy crashed. for YEARS you could be a preferred player and easily afford to buy weekly flashpoint/ops/warzone passes. for YEARS it was stable and active WITH cartel items. packs sold for an average of 150k per pack for old ones, 300k - for just released ones for YEARS. it wasn't until patch 4.0 that things rapidly crashed. becasue of the credit exploit. becasue of the changes to quest rewards. your ability to ignore evidence is staggering.
My point was Bioware didn't control the economy as well as Zenimax and cartel items weren't tied to the market before things went out of hand. It only got worse after, yeah. What evidence am I ignoring? I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue now tbh.
oh, my. god. cartel market items were tied to the market long before economy crash. what bioware didn't control was fixing of the *** glitches. they allowed people to print credits like crazy, for MONTHS before they fixed that exploit. and vast VAST majority of those credits? was NOT removed out of the economy, because by the point it shifted hands so many times it was damn near impossible to tell which credits were legit and which were created via exploit.
imagine for a moment that in ESO, you can fence the same item indefinitely. with no limit to how many times. and ZOS takes MONTHS to fix it. it doesn't matter how many scattered traders you have. even if trader fees go up, they will not compensate nearly enough for hyper inflation that will be cause by that one exploit being allowed to go unchecked for months. this is not about control of economy. its about fixing bugs. THIS is the evidence you are ignoring. you are trying to claim that cartel market trading was not going on before that point of credit influx. it was. you are trying to claim that centralized auction house caused it, when it was in game since launched and worked just fine for YEARS.
you are trying to create causation where there's barely even correlation.
SWTOR had inflation problems far worse than ESO before cartel items came around. Not as bad as the glitch you're talking about but still pretty bad at handing out credits like candy.
What am I trying to correlate? I never suggested cartel trading was not going on before that glitch. I never suggested a central AH done that. The only thing I suggested about a central AH is that it helps against undercutting/controlling a single items market.
what? are you just making stuff up now? SWTOR had NO inflation problems prior to that glitch. that's the whole point prior to that glitch as annoying as credit maximums for f2p/preferred players were? it was still possible to play decently and afford plenty within them. inflation was barely noticeable.
but tell me this. how exactly does centralized AH help with undercutting/market control when EVERYONE can acess it at any time and kill all those market control schemes? everyone can sell at will instead of having to be in a guild and so there are just generally more items to trade.
this is what actualy happens.
scenario 1. someone wants to control the market over one desired item. if that item is rare - sure they could list it for much higher costs. but it doesn't sell. not until they lower the cost to what someone is willing to pay. and if they try to buy out lower priced items to relist them? sellers of those items benefit as their items sell quicker.
scenario 2. its a highly in demand item - like say crafting mats, or oh what the hell, easiest thing to make credits with for just about anyone - augments and/or augment kits. person tries to undercut, until they start selling at a loss. buyer benefits, other sellers move on to something else. wannabe monopolist is stuck with a whole bunch of kits they paid too much for. they try relisting them for much higher prices? bam, people who moved on - come back and undercut the monopolist. market stabilizes again, monopolist is thwarted.
scenario 3. someone sees an item that is priced way too low, usually by mistake. they snatch that item up and reselling it at a more proper price. same scenario as with ESO - luck with being in the right place at the right time, looking at the right listing. central AH doesn't make this any less or more likely then scattered traders.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
Uh...no. You obviously haven't played FFXIV, nor DCUO, nor EVE Online. You obviously have no clue what your talking about as you've consistently failed to provide any actual specifics or said anything verifiable. Trying to talk to you is pointless. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to log in to the game, and enjoy the deals that ESO's economy provides. Have fun beating a dead horse.
no, I have not. the fact that you think that those games having issues with economy whatever those issues may be are due to central AH and NOT other factors is hilariously myoptic. I HAVE provided specifics that are verifiable. you just refuse to accept them.
No, the others are right and you are dead wrong, sorry.
The few games keeping an healthy economy are those which managed to keep velocity of money low.
This is only achieved by fragmenting the money currencies, by fragmenting the markets across different regions or by implementing complimentary hard or playtime currency like PLEX or gems.
Any other solution so far tends to super-inflation and markets implosion over time.
People mention SWTOR / WoW but there were less known games like Warhammer Online or Horizons that suffered from the same issue. As the games matured, inflation took over and before Warhammer would be shut down, a new player could not buy anything. Inflation was about 30% a month, something you only see on countries (and video games) about to implode!Edited by Vahrokh on June 11, 2017 12:17AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
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Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
I have a feeling that clearly you prefer current system becasue you find it EASIER to manipulate.
edited to add. I know for a fact that major guilds have not only multiple guilds with multiple accounts in multiple trading spots as well as allied guilds, a lot of them don't even bother to hide it, by naming their sister guilds the same name, with a number next to them (you know guild 1, guild 2, guild 3), or very similar names. because I understand this system and have been using it well enough to at this point to stop stealing for gold and get most of my gold from guild sales is part of the reason I dislike it even more. because I'm seeing how abused and abusive it can get. and how exclusionary to anyone who doesn't log in daily and doesn't go through specific motions to keep it going.
So, you'd want to enforce on everybody a system that makes blatant and official what wrong are doing prominent guilds right now?
I want to open a system to EVERYBODY so that few monopolies cannot control it anymore
edited. sigh. its like beating my head against brick wall.
games that managed to keep healthy economies - balance gold creation with gold sinks. which is doable AND is being done with centralized trading system. games suffering from inflation don't have enough gold sinks to balance out gold creation. I cannot state it any simpler then that.
Edited by Linaleah on June 11, 2017 12:19AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Drelkag✭✭✭Absolut_Turkey wrote: »Not sure how people think it's easier to manipulate this system. Dozens of sister guilds attempting to manipulate the market still gives players dozens of other choices to buy from with other pricing. A centralized market is far easier to dominate and control since there's no other options.
because its so scattered, the chance of a regular person finding an item they are looking for before its snatched up and relisted - are slim to none. because the chance of a casual seller being able to sell their wares at anything other then rock bottom price to re-seller IF they are not stuck selling in trade - are again fairly low. because casual seller is stuck in one of the out of the way guilds.
Much higher chance than having a centralized AH with people buying up all of one item with a single click on a whim and not having to hunt around to resell it a crazy high price.
Edit to add I speak from experience as a crafter on XIV. Can't count how many times I needed a staple crafting item to grind out levels and it was taken over by rich players being resold at a higher price.
except, when more people can sell easier, and when everything is easier to find, its much MUCH harder to take over the market. I have seen people trying to take over the market and fail, because too many people would just relist the stuff again, thinking there's sudden extra demand for it. because listing items with central markets is NOT the pain it is in ESO
Doesn't that apply to your argument as well and just make what you're arguing irrelevant?
Still - what ESO has is much more difficult to price gouge and control the market for a single item. We can only go by hypotheticals until ESO has an AH but from my experience I'd rather not have it.
Feel like we're going in circles. Not much to add besides that.
its much easier in ESO to price gouge. because location, location, location not to mention - limited spaces for limited number of sellers. but we are going in circles, becasue no evidence can convince you all, since deep down inside, you KNOW that you benefit from this unfarly skewed system at the cost of the rest of the players.
from my experience with both centralized trade houses and ESO? centralized system, all day every day. unfortunately - the real reason why its going to be here to stay for a while, or possible for as long as the game exists, is NOT because its a better system. but rather because its the only significant gold sink this game has in form of weekly trader fees. not because its better style of economy. but because ZOS haven't figured out another way to drain gold out of economy to stave off inflation. they tried with housing, but it doesn't have enough of a use and the costs are still one time rather then ongoing, so...
What mmo did you play that only had a centralized AH AND had a thriving economy? Serious question.
every. single. one. WoW actualy has a decent economy, inflation notwithstanding. economy in swtor didn't start going to hell until after patch that decimated population of most servers while creating hyper inflation thanks to an exploit that stayed unpatched for MONTHS. did decently enough in GW2. wasn't trying to do much with a market, but when i needed to buy or sell most things - I could with no issues. Neverwinter even, last I played it was pretty darn workable as a casual.
ESO while workable, is the only game where economy is NOT casual friendly.
I don't think ESO is casual friendly but I think it has a far better economy than any of those games you listed. WoW is hyper inflation personified.
and i have explained exactly WHY its hyper inflation personified. which has nothing to do with centralized auction house and everything to do with Blizzard introducing easy ways to generate ridiculous amounts of gold without enough gold sinks to suction that gold out.
on a plus side, the fact that everything sells for more - means new player can go farm some copper and peace bloom in a starting area and make enough gold to buy their first AND second AND third mount upgrade AND multispec with a LOT less effort difficulty.
I can't name a central AH that isn't hyper inflated. GW2 does alright because gold is tied to gems, not because of a central AH. XIV, WoW, SWTOR - they all become inflated that a new player couldn't afford most basic things.
Edit: You're arguing for hyper-inflation now. Not sure what to make of it.
All I know is I prefer the economy ESO has (along with EVE, a game without a central AH) to the crazy hyper-inflation you see in games with a central AH. XIV, SWTOR, WoW - from my experience they're all the same. And from my personal XIV experience people control the market for a single item way too often. Gonna join the above poster and play some now.
sigh, even ESO is getting inflated. look at the prices of materials. look at the prices of motifs, prices of gear. what new player can afford any of those???? hyper inflation in SWTOR is literally due to 2 factors that can be very. easily traced. a gold generated exploit where you could buy an item from a vendor and sell it back at enormous profit - credits that largely remained in economy. prior to that patch - economy was healthy and affordable for YEARS.. and less so, but still significantly - thanks to changes to quests and quest rewards. and in WoW - again due to the fact that Blizzard made it easier then ever to create gold, while removing some of the significant gold sinks (training) without adding enough new ones soon enough.
oh and are you under impression that you trade gold for gems that Arenanet just creates? you do realize that someone had to have purchased those gems to be traded, right? the reason it does already is because arenanet never added anything that made gold stupid fast to create. its still pretty painstaking to make through regular means, which means it doesn't trickle into economy at alarming rates, while all the gold sinks are still there, so it remains stable.
I love how you all think you understand the economy and all these games you keep bringing up. and you. have no. idea.
I'm not arguing FOR hyperinflation. I'm explaining WHY it exists in a first place and its not. due. to trading. systems. its due to changes how gold is created. do you understand gold creation? every time you stole and item and fenced it - you just created gold. out of thin air. every time you turn in the quest and get a quest reward? you have created gold. you have ADDED gold to economy. trading doesn't create gold. it shifts it around between players, while removing some from economy via taxes/listing fees/etc. hyper inflation doesn't happen because of how you trade. it happens because gold sinks (removing gold from the game) cannot catch up with gold creation (adding gold INTO the game)
Of course ESO is becoming inflated. Not nearly at the rate WoW, XIV and others have done in the first year. Check recommended pricing guides from a year ago on ESO and today's. Not sure why you're suggesting I never said ESO was slowly becoming inflated.
And I know GW2 doesn't set the gem price themselves, it's all a market. But when something is tied to real currency the market becomes a bit more stable.
I. do. have. an. idea.
no, you obviously do not. because economy in SWTOR is also tied to real currency in a way - since so much of it involves reselling cartel market items. didn't stop hyper inflation any, why? because hyper inflation was due to large rapid influx of currency into the game.
the reason why ESO doesn't inflate as quickly as other games is because there are daily fence limits, quest rewards are still pretty low all things considered, respecs are still pricey and most importantly - trader bids take gold out of economy. this doesn't make the system itself better, btw. its a bandaid of a goldsink. it could have just as easily been higher listing fees and taxes/percentage taken from sales in a central trading house. i mean.. why do you think the housing is so expensive? its an attempt to drain gold out of economy to slow down the inflation.
in any case this IS pretty tiresome and my daily coldharbor run already took twice as much time as it normally does, so I'm done now. I have explained things as clearly as I could.
SWTOR only introduced cartel items to the trade network after the damage was done. They do have a cap on how often you can sell though. GW2 tied gems to gold from the start.
Yes, I agree - Zenimax is handling the economy of ESO great. Region-based markets help that.
why did I reload, why. /facepalm. cartel market items were tradable for YEARS. YEARS before economy crashed. for YEARS you could be a preferred player and easily afford to buy weekly flashpoint/ops/warzone passes. for YEARS it was stable and active WITH cartel items. packs sold for an average of 150k per pack for old ones, 300k - for just released ones for YEARS. it wasn't until patch 4.0 that things rapidly crashed. becasue of the credit exploit. becasue of the changes to quest rewards. your ability to ignore evidence is staggering.
My point was Bioware didn't control the economy as well as Zenimax and cartel items weren't tied to the market before things went out of hand. It only got worse after, yeah. What evidence am I ignoring? I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue now tbh.
oh, my. god. cartel market items were tied to the market long before economy crash. what bioware didn't control was fixing of the *** glitches. they allowed people to print credits like crazy, for MONTHS before they fixed that exploit. and vast VAST majority of those credits? was NOT removed out of the economy, because by the point it shifted hands so many times it was damn near impossible to tell which credits were legit and which were created via exploit.
imagine for a moment that in ESO, you can fence the same item indefinitely. with no limit to how many times. and ZOS takes MONTHS to fix it. it doesn't matter how many scattered traders you have. even if trader fees go up, they will not compensate nearly enough for hyper inflation that will be cause by that one exploit being allowed to go unchecked for months. this is not about control of economy. its about fixing bugs. THIS is the evidence you are ignoring. you are trying to claim that cartel market trading was not going on before that point of credit influx. it was. you are trying to claim that centralized auction house caused it, when it was in game since launched and worked just fine for YEARS.
you are trying to create causation where there's barely even correlation.
SWTOR had inflation problems far worse than ESO before cartel items came around. Not as bad as the glitch you're talking about but still pretty bad at handing out credits like candy.
What am I trying to correlate? I never suggested cartel trading was not going on before that glitch. I never suggested a central AH done that. The only thing I suggested about a central AH is that it helps against undercutting/controlling a single items market.
what? are you just making stuff up now? SWTOR had NO inflation problems prior to that glitch. that's the whole point prior to that glitch as annoying as credit maximums for f2p/preferred players were? it was still possible to play decently and afford plenty within them. inflation was barely noticeable.
but tell me this. how exactly does centralized AH help with undercutting/market control when EVERYONE can acess it at any time and kill all those market control schemes? everyone can sell at will instead of having to be in a guild and so there are just generally more items to trade.
this is what actualy happens.
scenario 1. someone wants to control the market over one desired item. if that item is rare - sure they could list it for much higher costs. but it doesn't sell. not until they lower the cost to what someone is willing to pay. and if they try to buy out lower priced items to relist them? sellers of those items benefit as their items sell quicker.
scenario 2. its a highly in demand item - like say crafting mats, or oh what the hell, easiest thing to make credits with for just about anyone - augments and/or augment kits. person tries to undercut, until they start selling at a loss. buyer benefits, other sellers move on to something else. wannabe monopolist is stuck with a whole bunch of kits they paid too much for. they try relisting them for much higher prices? bam, people who moved on - come back and undercut the monopolist. market stabilizes again, monopolist is thwarted.
scenario 3. someone sees an item that is priced way too low, usually by mistake. they snatch that item up and reselling it at a more proper price. same scenario as with ESO - luck with being in the right place at the right time, looking at the right listing. central AH doesn't make this any less or more likely then scattered traders.
SWTOR handed out credits on a level comparable to WoW. Not as bad, but pretty close.
People can control the market of a single item from a centralized AH. Happens often in XIV. Saying it doesn't work doesn't help when you're looking at an item going for three times the usual price overnight.
Not really much else to say.@drelkag on the NA server1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
I have a feeling that clearly you prefer current system becasue you find it EASIER to manipulate.
edited to add. I know for a fact that major guilds have not only multiple guilds with multiple accounts in multiple trading spots as well as allied guilds, a lot of them don't even bother to hide it, by naming their sister guilds the same name, with a number next to them (you know guild 1, guild 2, guild 3), or very similar names. because I understand this system and have been using it well enough to at this point to stop stealing for gold and get most of my gold from guild sales is part of the reason I dislike it even more. because I'm seeing how abused and abusive it can get. and how exclusionary to anyone who doesn't log in daily and doesn't go through specific motions to keep it going.
So, you'd want to enforce on everybody a system that makes blatant and official what wrong are doing prominent guilds right now?
I want to open a system to EVERYBODY so that few monopolies cannot control it anymore
edited. sigh. its like beating my head against brick wall.
games that managed to keep healthy economies - balance gold creation with gold sinks. which is doable AND is being done with centralized trading system. games suffering from inflation don't have enough gold sinks to balance out gold creation. I cannot state it any simpler then that.
One AH = one monopolist can hold a number of items hostage at his whims.
I have been there and done that, for about 17 years, on every MMO that allowed so.
Many "AHs" = one monopolist cannot put a character inside each. There are small monopolies inside each guild, sure, but they are not toxic or deadly like a true AH market maker. Not by far.
The remedy you propose is what correlated (at first) and then killed a lot of real life financial markets.
I used to make a good profit in some of them, until the big guys unified more and more and now most markets deliver minimal profit vs high risk.
Games are the same. There's is ALWAYS scarcity in actual market makers, while there is NOT scarcity in money. Diversity is where health exists. Making a big blob is where razor thin margins are (for small traders) because big markets are efficient.
At the same time, big markets are easily manipulated by big traders. Big traders love to be able to manipulate a whole market, they hate to have to split their money in 100 small markets, where their influence gets squashed by 100.
The concept does not get easier than that.Edited by Vahrokh on June 11, 2017 12:30AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
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✭✭✭✭✭Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
I have a feeling that clearly you prefer current system becasue you find it EASIER to manipulate.
This is the weakest point possible. It is laughable when someone tries to put down/discredit the other person. LOL
When that is your major point you start out with then there really is not much point discussing the topic with you since you want to sling mud.
Talk about irony, you already slung mud within your response, even before getting to the point of slinging mud nice.
Explaining the reality of how a significant portion of the active players in the game view the guild trader system?
Seriously, The person I quoted in multiple threads has made her starting point basically stating that those who post in favor of the guild trader system are clearly enjoying manipulating others is a BS comment.
Any argument that hinges on putting down others, especially as the basis is an irrational argument.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm pretty sure ZoS would consider adding that option if it were possible. We've seen first hand how ZoS's optimization works, and your suggestion simply wouldn't be stable enough for live server use. In fact I bet that could be partly why every guild store is split up into different vendors. If they had everyone searching from a single huge listing of items, the server would likely completely buckle from the demand.Along with adding the option to search every guild store at the same time from your banker screen.
If you are going to have global search, there is no point in having the guild stores at vendors.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »For one, you are wrong. You asked so I answered.
Second, you fail to consider the downsides of the tired, stale and abused single point trade systems, not to mention pain in the neck auction houses that permit gold traders to easily screw the market.
Third, ESO is clearly setup to be a social game permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. Many guilds that have very minimal requirements (merely sell some stuff) have available slots. Really easy to do.
those downsides are exaggerated and not even remotely outweigh the downsides of the current system.
GW2 is clearly set up to be a social game, permitting us to be a member of 5 guilds. it also has centralized trading house.
minimal requirements are still requirements. with centralized trade/auction house there are no obligations. you can sell when you want to, skip when you don't - no donations/raffle tickets on weeks when you are not selling. you won't get kicked out for inactivity just becasue you went on vacation. no more wasting time hopping all over the world even after TTC search, trying to find that one thing you are looking for, I'm not even talking about trying to find a good deal. just trying to find an item, period.
and before the whole tired "you don't understand the system, you are lazy, etc etc" gets brought up. I do fine. not super major sales because trading is something I do on a side, becasue I have stuff to get rid off, but I sell more then enough to hit my minimums. I still hate this system. BECAUSE i understand it and because I have experienced so... much.. better.
That is a matter of opinion, and I respect you have an opinion though clearly do not agree with it because the current system is clearly working well (not liking it does not mean it is not working well and you have not come up with a real explanation to the contrary). BECAUSE a great many that have experienced other games and other systems clearly prefer the current ESO Guild Trader system.
Also a great many guilds have no requirements and that has been pointed out by at least one in this thread who originally did not like the guild trader system, likes it now. A great many do not require donations or raffle tickets purchases and having them is really a moot point if they are not required.
True about not all of them requiring a weekly quota but how many of those are not in prime spots
IE: Underground, out of no where with hardly any business?
For starters, probably a great many in decent spots have no or small requirements. Small requirements being as long as they are selling SOMETHING their have no issues. The guild I am in has a low requirement and I can tell you from the time I have been in it that if someone does not make their quota for that week they are not gkicked since the history that they have been selling is known.
Of course if it is a long stretch or they are not logging in they will get kicked but that is obviously naturally to be expected. Even my raiding guild kicks those that do not participate with the guild so it is clear who is likely to join raids and who is just there because.
And BTW, my raiding guild grabs spots for the minimum bid and stuff sells pretty good from there so your reasoning is still flawed.
I am in a guild with a weekly quota of 1000 gold from the guild's cut. We have a good location. No requirement for anything else.
Making the quota is easy for me right now since I still have a ton of motifs from recent events. Before that, I sold a lot of junk gear for people leveling crafting and glyphs as I was grinding out dolmen achievements and you get a lot of glyphs there. I can see how it would be quite hard for a newer player to hit 1k while also having time to enjoy the game content.
TTC really helps if you are in a crappy location. I always look in the TTC web site before making a pricey purchase. Sure, the item is often already sold, but at least I'm not going vendor to vendor jotting down prices.1 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can't help but feel like a handfull of casual wow kids make these threads up every week. Same remedial arguments and same user names every time. Children under 15 or those with severe learning disabilities shouldn't be allowed on forums.1 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »I can't help but feel like a handfull of casual wow kids make these threads up every week. Same remedial arguments and same user names every time. Children under 15 or those with severe learning disabilities shouldn't be allowed on forums.
You really don't know anything then do you, MMO's have members of all ages or are you just that delirious?0 -
Barbaran✭✭✭✭
ESO is the only MMO where I need to get in touch with a guild trader to sell my items to other players.
im gonna age myself here.
look wayyyyyy back to about 1997ish in one of the first large computer MMO's, Ultima Online.
in order to sell something (other then spamming in text) you had to purchase a vendor in a player bought house.
so basically you bought a deed for a house, and had to find a plot of empty clear land where the house would fit (no trees, rocks, uneven ground etc) and depending on how much gold you spent you could get different sizes and shapes of houses.
then you could buy vendors and put them in your house and make your house public for people to go in and look to see what you had in your vendors for sale.
so now you had to somehow figure out who owned the house and get in contact with them to negotiate rent.
if all that wasnt bad enough, you now had to hope someone walks by and decides to take a look at your vendors. and then if you have good stuff you have to hope they tell their friends how to get there ( and the world in this game was huge).
so no, ESO doesnt have the worst trading system
Edited by Barbaran on June 11, 2017 2:13AM1 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
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ESO is the only MMO where I need to get in touch with a guild trader to sell my items to other players.
im gonna age myself here.
look wayyyyyy back to about 1997ish in one of the first large computer MMO's, Ultima Online.
in order to sell something (other then spamming in text) you had to purchase a vendor in a player bought house.
so basically you bought a deed for a house, and had to find a plot of empty clear land where the house would fit (no trees, rocks, uneven ground etc) and depending on how much gold you spent you could get different sizes and shapes of houses.
then you could buy vendors and put them in your house and make your house public for people to go in and look to see what you had in your vendors for sale.
so now you had to somehow figure out who owned the house and get in contact with them to negotiate rent.
if all that wasnt bad enough, you now had to hope someone walks by and decides to take a look at your vendors. and then if you have good stuff you have to hope they tell their friends how to get there ( and the world in this game was huge).
so no, ESO doesnt have the worst trading system
That was also in the past to be fair, the modern day MMO's use some sort of server wide auction house now which appeases everyone that plays.0 -
Barbaran✭✭✭✭Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »
ESO is the only MMO where I need to get in touch with a guild trader to sell my items to other players.
im gonna age myself here.
look wayyyyyy back to about 1997ish in one of the first large computer MMO's, Ultima Online.
in order to sell something (other then spamming in text) you had to purchase a vendor in a player bought house.
so basically you bought a deed for a house, and had to find a plot of empty clear land where the house would fit (no trees, rocks, uneven ground etc) and depending on how much gold you spent you could get different sizes and shapes of houses.
then you could buy vendors and put them in your house and make your house public for people to go in and look to see what you had in your vendors for sale.
so now you had to somehow figure out who owned the house and get in contact with them to negotiate rent.
if all that wasnt bad enough, you now had to hope someone walks by and decides to take a look at your vendors. and then if you have good stuff you have to hope they tell their friends how to get there ( and the world in this game was huge).
so no, ESO doesnt have the worst trading system
That was also in the past to be fair, the modern day MMO's use some sort of server wide auction house now which appeases everyone that plays.
just pointing out that there have been terrible systems in the past
ESO and ZOS despite the many issues dont always have to be the sacraficial goat 1
