To ZoS Lawsuit class action contract breach and infringment warning.

idk · June 2017

Malpherian wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

NOTE: I have no intention of sueing ZoS this is merely to point out to them that they are obviously in breach of contract and why.

ZoS as a not lawyer student

Yeah...stopped right about here...

Mororrowind is considered by legal definition to be ESO content as it is not a "Stand a lone" game and Requires ESO to play.

Actually, it doesn't...because they provide access to the base game with full purchase of Morrowind.

So:
Full Morrowind comes with ESO

ESO does not come with full Morrowind.

If you really want to get down to brass tacks, you could play the game and never leave Morrowind, thus never accessing the base game, essentially not requiring ESO at all...

Might want to study up on those technicalities a bit more. I hear they're kind of important.

So, do I get to be a not lawyer too?

EDIT: And because I'm in a mood...

A class action lawsuits if filed, will require you to refund every subscribtion you have ever charged bankrupting your company, if one is filed.

Objection: Redundancy

It doesn't matter of you can play it or not by choice. It is still part of the ESO IP And since it is attached to the hip requiring the base game to "function". ZoS is contractually obligated to do such.

Again if Morrowind did not require the original game to play this would not be the case. But it does. So it is.

LOL. More proof OP has not bothered reading the ToS.

First rule of offering legal advice is basic understanding of the agreement your arguing about.

Excuse me for offering legal advice since I am not an attorney. LOL

Abeille · June 2017

Hello there. As a lawyer, I admire your enthusiasm, I've been there too, always pondering about services and contracts.

However, in the terms of service you signed, ZOS says clearly that they can define what is included and what is not in their paid subscription service, and they can modify the service whenever they want. When they do, they make you agree with the terms of service again to keep playing.

Though I am not American, even in countries that are less liberal and more protective of the consumer, companies can put such clauses in their contracts. While they do seem abusive at first glance, and I am sure there are judges somewhere in the world that would find these clauses to be abusive (you never know what can come out of a judge's head, heh), I would say they are still within the parameters of the freedom of contract.

Don't worry about it. They most likely have a team of lawyers much more experienced than the both of us combined.

Malpherian · June 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

If the courts we're to rule any other way

Objection: Grammar

Study more, please. Practice less.

I'm on a Phone it's a typo... Jesus.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

vamp_emily wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Failing to do so is clear breach of contract and infringment. A class action lawsuits if filed, will require you to refund every subscribtion you have ever charged bankrupting your company, if one is filed.

I advise you fix this post haste.

lol, I don't think a lawsuit will bankrupt the company. If for some reason they were guilty of the aforementioned charge they would settle in court and just pay a small portion of the fine to satisfy the courts.

However, I often wonder if theses MMOs are breaking any laws.

@vamp_emily Shhhhh....*I think he's trying to get them to settle*

Emma_Overload · June 2017

LOL at all this whining from ESO+ subscribers! I have ZERO sympathy for you guys. Where was your sympathy when ZOS started to screw DLC purchasers out of perks like the crafting bag?

Nah, you guys are just going to have to bite the bullet and shell out the forty bucks like everyone else.

Uncle_Sweetshare · June 2017

Look, I'm going to put this in as simple of terms as I can... In their TOS they reserve the right to do whatever the hell they want, when they want, to whom they want (within their game and on their forums).

They could ban me at any moment for raising a sh*tstorm about Battlegrounds, and they wouldn't even have to give a reason other than they felt like it.

Will they ban me for it? Probably not, as it's very bad publicity. But they could.

supaskrub · June 2017

OP, lets get something straight, ZOS will have the finest of legal teams on speedial as well their own in-house team, while your speedial probably consists of nothing more than the local pizzeria..

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Malpherian wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

If the courts we're to rule any other way

Objection: Grammar

Study more, please. Practice less.

I'm on a Phone it's a typo... Jesus.

Objection: We've no record of "Jesus" in the courtroom.

Seriously...just stop.

Fuz · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, by law, Zos is permitted to change their business model at any time without notice based on the legally binding agreement we all digitally signed.

Nope.

Digital signatures are very much legally binding.

Nope.

acw37162 · June 2017

Law Students quoting law and making legal opinions, so cute.

Turelus · June 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

LOL at all this whining from ESO+ subscribers! I have ZERO sympathy for you guys. Where was your sympathy when ZOS started to screw DLC purchasers out of perks like the crafting bag?

Nah, you guys are just going to have to bite the bullet and shell out the forty bucks like everyone else.

Please don't lump us all in the same basket. Some of us are quite happy with both our sub and our expansion.

I mean, I do have 480 bank slots and a crafting bag now.

Edit: typos

AzraelKrieg · June 2017

You, good sir, have received the first "N'wah of the Day" award. Good play to you. My advice to you is the following:

1. Find a dictionary, brush up on your spelling and grammar. There have been lawsuits made where something so simple as a comma was misplaced. Commas are very important.
2. You should probably read over the TOS again, this a fine-tooth comb and see that, as you agreed to the TOS, ZOS can and will make changes to the service as they see fit and there is not a thing you can actually do about it.
3. Maybe consider a different career path. I don't think law is a good fit for you.

Sylosi · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, by law, Zos is permitted to change their business model at any time without notice based on the legally binding agreement we all digitally signed.

Whether something is actually legally binding is only really tested in the courts, for example lots of software licenses/ToS that people signed state that those licenses cannot be resold, but that went to court and the EU Court ruled people could indeed legally resell licenses if they so wished, so effectively those "legally binding" agreements were not worth the metaphorical paper they were written on.

DRXHarbinger · June 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

I'm sure there's a corporate loophole somewhere. But I'm also sure ZoS has ticked off enough people enough times with these antics that something this obvious and brash might actually be the anvil that breaks the camel's back.

I mean we're not talking about some mudcrab which was promised as exclusive being resold or regiven. "Founders I'm talking to you", this is obvious and clear cut and dry breach of contract.

Well we could ask @DRXHarbinger how his ASA case is going against them.

Soon my friend...soon. but progressing well.

But fun fact. Zos TOS in the UK is in fact classed as an "unfair contract" by definition forcing you to accept the product may be broken after the sale is made with guarantee on repairs or fixes (ToS isn't made available prior to sale if buying on console at any point of sale also) is in fact illegal.

The above about Morrowind is meh. However you coat that issue they stated a very long time ago it wouldn't be included so the choice was yours. And I agree it is branded as "the next chapter in the eso series" requiring the base game doesn't make a difference. That's like saying buying the old mass effect 3 should have included 1 and 2 to be able to play it properly.

Still it is a dlc in my opinion. Not worth of being expansion. But the fan base got exactly what they wanted. A crap class that never made the cut in the 1st place and Morrowind. Be careful what you ask for. Sometimes they will deliver to a T.

Zenzuki · June 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

You, good sir, have received the first "N'wah of the Day" award. Good play to you. My advice to you is the following:

1. Find a dictionary, brush up on your spelling and grammar. There have been lawsuits made where something so simple as a comma was misplaced. Commas are very important.
2. You should probably read over the TOS again, this a fine-tooth comb and see that, as you agreed to the TOS, ZOS can and will make changes to the service as they see fit and there is not a thing you can actually do about it.
3. Maybe consider a different career path. I don't think law is a good fit for you.

Only if they went to Oxford!

idk · June 2017

Fuz wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, by law, Zos is permitted to change their business model at any time without notice based on the legally binding agreement we all digitally signed.

Nope.

Digital signatures are very much legally binding.

Nope.

@Fuz

LOL. Very much is the case. LOL

I suggest you review UETA and ESIGN Acts. Might shed some light on the matter.

Turelus · June 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

I'm sure there's a corporate loophole somewhere. But I'm also sure ZoS has ticked off enough people enough times with these antics that something this obvious and brash might actually be the anvil that breaks the camel's back.

I mean we're not talking about some mudcrab which was promised as exclusive being resold or regiven. "Founders I'm talking to you", this is obvious and clear cut and dry breach of contract.

Well we could ask DRXHarbinger how his ASA case is going against them.

Soon my friend...soon. but progressing well.

But fun fact. Zos TOS in the UK is in fact classed as an "unfair contract" by definition forcing you to accept the product may be broken after the sale is made with guarantee on repairs or fixes (ToS isn't made available prior to sale if buying on console at any point of sale also) is in fact illegal.

The above about Morrowind is meh. However you coat that issue they stated a very long time ago it wouldn't be included so the choice was yours. And I agree it is branded as "the next chapter in the eso series" requiring the base game doesn't make a difference. That's like saying buying the old mass effect 3 should have included 1 and 2 to be able to play it properly.

Still it is a dlc in my opinion. Not worth of being expansion. But the fan base got exactly what they wanted. A crap class that never made the cut in the 1st place and Morrowind. Be careful what you ask for. Sometimes they will deliver to a T.

Thanks for the update. I know we've debated its chances in the past but I am truly interested how it goes.

MurderMostFoul · June 2017

As a lawyer and a ESO+ member, I confess that I have never read the details of the ESO+ terms of service.

However, it is very unlikely they are in breach, unless they were foolish enough to expressly define the subscription to included "all additional content of ESO and any associated products to the subscriber for free" (quoting OP) or use some other synonymous, broad phrasing.

Your allegation would arguably put them in breach for selling items on the crown store and not giving all of it to ESO+ too.

AzraelKrieg · June 2017

Zenzuki wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

You, good sir, have received the first "N'wah of the Day" award. Good play to you. My advice to you is the following:

1. Find a dictionary, brush up on your spelling and grammar. There have been lawsuits made where something so simple as a comma was misplaced. Commas are very important.
2. You should probably read over the TOS again, this a fine-tooth comb and see that, as you agreed to the TOS, ZOS can and will make changes to the service as they see fit and there is not a thing you can actually do about it.
3. Maybe consider a different career path. I don't think law is a good fit for you.

Only if they went to Oxford!

Do not discount the importance of the Oxford comma.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/17/missing-comma-crucial-in-10-million-lawsuit/
That is why the Oxford comma is very important

Glamdring · June 2017

Where do all the ZoSsuckers come from. They hired some company to balance out this forum?

Rhoric · June 2017

Fuz wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, by law, Zos is permitted to change their business model at any time without notice based on the legally binding agreement we all digitally signed.

Nope.

Digital signatures are very much legally binding.

Nope.

Yep you agreed to them when you signed up. You had to click ok to continue so that is your affirming to the TOS.

Sotihe · June 2017

I wont deny that what they did was pretty shady but im sure they have lawyers to contend with anything u can throw at them.

Wolfenbelle · June 2017

@Malpherian, just a suggestion here...before waving your "law school student" claim around, you might want to clean up your poor spelling and grammar first. Helps with the credibility, you know.

Yeah, yeah...it's considered poor form to criticize someone's spelling and/or grammar on internet boards, but when not just double, but triple negatives (plus a misspelling) are thrown at me in one sentence, I'm compelled to make an exception.

You wrote, "Had Morrowind been a stand alone title not requireing ESO in order to play this would not apply as it would not be considered additional content."

I realize legal language is deliberately obtuse, but seriously?!

ScytheNL · June 2017

Waste of time, if you sue them they'll just use the Flee option and hide until the bounty is cleared

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2017

Rhoric wrote: »

Let me spell it out for you.

IT IS AN E.X.P.A.N.S.I.O.N.

Naaaa. It's a C.H.A.P.T.E.R. !!!

Joke apart, I think that the way Morrowind was qualified as a chapter and thus not be included with ESO+ is more than clearly a breach of contract. I would even call it a scam. The philosophy of ESO+ was that it would include any future additional content, and then they changed their mind again with Morrowind.

On the other hand, legality doesn't equal justice, and I'm quite sure ZOS lawyers have covered up their asses on this subject. I don't believe a lawsuit would lead anywhere.

Third thing I take into consideration is that, after all, a company is free to change contracts, and customers are free to stop purchasing and to terminate subscriptions. Markets are evolving, companies should not be stuck "forever" by previous contracting conditions. (Note that they also should refrain from promising anything "forever", too).

And finally, as much as I disapprove of that move from ZOS' part... it's 40 euros. And even if it comes on top of the base game and ESO+ monthly fees, if I add up everything, and compare to the hours of fun I have playing the game, it's still all excellent value for money. So I just let it go.

idk · June 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, by law, Zos is permitted to change their business model at any time without notice based on the legally binding agreement we all digitally signed.

Whether something is actually legally binding is only really tested in the courts, for example lots of software licenses/ToS that people signed state that those licenses cannot be resold, but that went to court and the EU Court ruled people could indeed legally resell licenses if they so wished, so effectively those "legally binding" agreements were not worth the metaphorical paper they were written on.

True, but OP is also putting basing his argument on something that does not exist. He has not read the ToS and clearly does not understand some very basic fundamentals.

Though the only luck someone would have in a lawsuit of this nature would be some wording in the ToS was not perfect. These things are heavily vetted and work to cover any foreseeable situation.

Darlgon · June 2017

Blank+_5fe7e0b95cb5986abe39cd4391b2a6d6.jpg

Turelus · June 2017

Glamdring wrote: »

Where do all the ZoSsuckers come from. They hired some company to balance out this forum?

Wait, they're paying everyone else to defend them? I need a new contract.

Note: I don't actually have a contract. I'm really worried about my jokes giving misinformation now.

Zenzuki · June 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Zenzuki wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

You, good sir, have received the first "N'wah of the Day" award. Good play to you. My advice to you is the following:

1. Find a dictionary, brush up on your spelling and grammar. There have been lawsuits made where something so simple as a comma was misplaced. Commas are very important.
2. You should probably read over the TOS again, this a fine-tooth comb and see that, as you agreed to the TOS, ZOS can and will make changes to the service as they see fit and there is not a thing you can actually do about it.
3. Maybe consider a different career path. I don't think law is a good fit for you.

Only if they went to Oxford!

Do not discount the importance of the Oxford comma.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/17/missing-comma-crucial-in-10-million-lawsuit/
That is why the Oxford comma is very important

I know... thus my comment.

BTW, this thread is funny!

DRXHarbinger · June 2017

Turelus wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

I'm sure there's a corporate loophole somewhere. But I'm also sure ZoS has ticked off enough people enough times with these antics that something this obvious and brash might actually be the anvil that breaks the camel's back.

I mean we're not talking about some mudcrab which was promised as exclusive being resold or regiven. "Founders I'm talking to you", this is obvious and clear cut and dry breach of contract.

Well we could ask DRXHarbinger how his ASA case is going against them.

Soon my friend...soon. but progressing well.

But fun fact. Zos TOS in the UK is in fact classed as an "unfair contract" by definition forcing you to accept the product may be broken after the sale is made with guarantee on repairs or fixes (ToS isn't made available prior to sale if buying on console at any point of sale also) is in fact illegal.

The above about Morrowind is meh. However you coat that issue they stated a very long time ago it wouldn't be included so the choice was yours. And I agree it is branded as "the next chapter in the eso series" requiring the base game doesn't make a difference. That's like saying buying the old mass effect 3 should have included 1 and 2 to be able to play it properly.

Still it is a dlc in my opinion. Not worth of being expansion. But the fan base got exactly what they wanted. A crap class that never made the cut in the 1st place and Morrowind. Be careful what you ask for. Sometimes they will deliver to a T.

Thanks for the update. I know we've debated its chances in the past but I am truly interested how it goes.

It is a chance and it sure will be a 1st. If it goes anywhere it will help set a precedent for when other bandits come along. It will only go to 2 extremes as most things do in the UK legal system. Nothing or someone will go in Club fisted and probably ruin the gaming industry lol. Personally I just want an apology and explanation as to why we were ignored for near 4 months and lessons learned from them, and finally some mediocre form of compensation for console subbers and anyone that bought TG 6 months prior to the defect (goods fit for purpose) it's not actually a lot to ask.