Developer Nerfs - Usually Unnecessary and with Unintended Consequences that Provoke Further Nerfing

Personofsecrets · June 2017

First and foremost, it is my general assumption that people like to do cool things. People like to try out new skills, apply old skills that they have learned in innovative ways, and people like to push the boundaries of what they are working on. Of course this generalization isn't always the case, but it is true a vast majority of the time.

As a consequence of that dynamic, players adapt to certain situations and create a metagame where larger portions of the player base understand about why players are doing the things that they do.

Recently, because you developers and the keen, yet unnecessary, idea to nerf player resources and standardize resource return of certain abilities, you created a new metagame. You created a new tanking metagame where most of what matters is having a high health pool. Several of us saw such a metagame coming from a mile a way. I will leave it to you developers to check Tamriel Foundry forums to find out that we new such a metagame was coming. It is apparent, with certain shield and Equilibrium nerfs happening right now, you didn't have a clue about what was occuring because of your lame resource nerfs.

Listen, I don't expect you to know about every little minutiae and that is especially true with tanking. Hell, I don't even want you to know about tanking at all because, every time you think you know something, a fun way of playing becomes permanently destroyed. What surprises me most is that you developers didn't make changes during the PTS as the strategies that people are using now were more or less used during the PTS. Once again, the PTS is proven to be mostly a ceremonial act that uses a small fraction of player input. By the way, there are still many skills that you have yet to standardize despite your made up and ever shifting vision of the game.

The truth is that standardizing the game doesn't matter so much. Standardization is a boogeyman. A non-standardized game has been so much fun for so many people up to this point. Doesn't that count for anything? You know, maybe people thrive on a little chaos. Maybe they need to think a little bit. You are using standardization just as an excuse in order to justify the changes that one of you developers cooked up in a lame sleep-deprive-addled brainstorming session where everyone has a case of the Mondays and so much caffeine that any idea sounds good.

What surprises me the most is how you developers, so often, chase you tails. You change x which, in a foreseeable way causes y, then you change y which, in a foreseeable way causes z, ad nausea. The development of this game is clearly a scenario of the dog (development team) being wagged by it's own tail (the metagame). You developers are not in control and, frankly, you should just embrace that lack of control by now. At least, after so many occasions of your failure, I hope that you come to expect the implications of the ill-wanted changes that you make.

First it was no stam regen while blocking and you made Black Rose. Then you removed block cost mitigation. Then it was Sturdy and the CP tree. Then it was the CP tree again. Did you all know that some people actual complain that Wrath is too strong of a passive ability? Did you ever think that any of this would be necessary? What exactly is your vision? Do you really having one? Can you release a copy of it for us all to see?

I say this quite proudly. The players have always been the ones to make this game fun and the developers get in the players way. Through tireless work and testing, players craft strategies that get around and bypass the foolish and unfun parts of this game. It is always the developers, who somehow finds going against the grain their job, who steps in between the players and a fun game.

"Oh no," the developer says, "we can't be having any of this particular enjoyment anymore." Back to the grinding stone players go to find a new way of destroying the developers hard work. You know that you developers wouldn't have such a tough and busy schedule if you didn't laser focus on constantly removing the parts of the game that players enjoy. Hell, based on the track record, you developers wouldn't have any work at all if you, not only stopped removing things that people enjoyed, but also stopped adding things that nobody wants. Maybe that is the point. Maybe this charade is just a form of job security for the balance team. I'm sure you all would have plenty to do without the unnecessary changes so what gives?

Trust me on this fact. The new adaptation to your changes to shielding and Equilibrium has already been done. You will find us using some new ways of playing and I bet those wont fit your overly-particular vision of the game either. Are you just going to keep trimming (removing fun game aspects) your cut of meat (game) until there is nothing real left, until there is no palpable thing for players to hold and bit into, or are you finally going to learn that this is the players game, not yours?

Sigtric · June 2017

That's a lot of words.

idk · June 2017

It's vision brother's and sister's. This has been their vision.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

It's vision brother's and sister's. This has been their vision.

Actually laughed out loud.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , Do the developers perform a seance around @Wrobel where he sits, wearing a silken gown, in the middle of a pentagram, while everyone else holds hands around him and chants in tongues until he finally speaks? Once heard, his words cause the many candles of the room to be extinguished in a paranormal way. Evoked has been the vision for Elder Scrolls Online, channeled through the one known as Eric Wrobel, but passed to him from who exactly?

Cously · June 2017

Tanking is already an ungrateful job. There is a reason why DPS have to wait hours in a queue but as a Tank I get groups instantly. Can I tank with your *** changes? Yes. Do I enjoy it? No. So have fun with one less tank out of the group pool. Your PVE sucks and your combat team is unqualified. Since this game is taking the same path as SWTOR did, you will notice in that game they basically removed the trinity, dumbed down content to be completed by 4 DPS including artificial healing methods around the boss. That is the future of ESO as the unskilled development team slaughters any will to play a complex tank with pointless nerfs. It's not fun, I'm out

I already have to worry about micro management and attention in my real life job, don't need that stress in the game as well. Wanna call that skill? Your loss.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

Cously wrote: »

That is the future of ESO as the unskilled development team slaughters any will to play a complex tank with pointless nerfs.

Quoted for emphasis.

burglar · June 2017

I don't mean to make OP's point any less potent, but when I try to think about what's involved when they are balancing the game, my head starts to hurt. Considering the number of sets of gear, their potential combinations, sorted to match many different abilities, there are a lot of different things to count even before considering the circumstances most players will find themselves in... and then to analyze that information... yikes. If they're using statistics then I imagine that they can only account for so many situations and circumstances. I mean, couldn't it just be that the build or play style needs to be changed?

kunquatb16_ESO · June 2017

Sigtric wrote: »

That's a lot of words.

In before word nurfs...

Haxer · June 2017

A whole lot of DK's mad their overpowered tanking gets brought down a peg.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

ProbablePaul wrote: »

I don't mean to make OP's point any less potent, but when I try to think about what's involved when they are balancing the game, my head starts to hurt. Considering the number of sets of gear, their potential combinations, sorted to match many different abilities, there are a lot of different things to count even before considering the circumstances most players will find themselves in... and then to analyze that information... yikes. If they're using statistics then I imagine that they can only account for so many situations and circumstances. I mean, couldn't it just be that the build or play style needs to be changed?

There are some parts of the game that can certainly be changed, for the better, from time to time.

One example of such change would be standardization of how skills are buffed by spell damage, spell critical, weapon damage, and weapon critical. Many players were confused by that part of the game way back when.

It is my argument that many parts of the game don't require balancing at all, cause unforeseen changes when they are balanced, waste developer time when they are balanced, and, overall, make the game less fun post-balance.

In the case of the shield and equilibrium changes today, we face some changes that didn't need to happen. @ZOS_RichLambert , you all laser-focused on a niche part of the game that is used for very specific content. It is extremely early to make such a nerf because players are using current builds as a way of adapting to the game until they discover the actual best build, and, honestly, it is fun and skill-intensive to give teammates big shields by managing the magic resource and positioning oneself in a dynamic way where shield hits the most people.

I get it, but silly of you all.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

Haxer wrote: »

A whole lot of DK's mad their overpowered tanking gets brought down a peg.

I hope the thing that you like gets nerfed next. Enjoy the consequences of your words.

inf.toniceb17_ESO · June 2017

I don't think they have any clear vision of the game. They just see what's overused and nerfhammer it into oblivion without much thinking. This would be understandable if the game was going through it's first year but it's been around for 3 years and it still looks like they don't know what to do with it, just change it at it's core every now and then and hope for the best.

itsfatbass · June 2017

Sums up exactly why I've decided to retire from ESO. I gave Morrowind 2 weeks and I just simply cannot anymore. Back to EQ for me.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think they have any clear vision of the game. They just see what's overused and nerfhammer it into oblivion without much thinking. This would be understandable if the game was going through it's first year but it's been around for 3 years and it still looks like they don't know what to do with it, just change it at it's core every now and then and hope for the best.

It would also be more understandable if they didn't tout around, on parade, this supposed grand vision of the game.

It is like someone playing a practical joke by saying they see something in the distance. No matter how hard anyone else stares into the beyond, there is really nothing to see there.

Cously · June 2017

The nerf tactic is simple. If is being overused then it's nerfed. I have no love for Sorcerers but even them got nerfed, many will argue the pet nerf wasn't enough but it demonstrated they nerf based on popularity instead in take into account the whole counter/balance debacle.

inf.toniceb17_ESO · June 2017

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It is like someone playing a practical joke by saying they see something in the distance. No matter how hard anyone else stares into the beyond, there is really nothing to see there.

Haha exactly!

Personofsecrets · June 2017

Cously wrote: »

The nerf tactic is simple. If is being overused then it's nerfed. I have no love for Sorcerers but even them got nerfed, many will argue the pet nerf wasn't enough but it demonstrated they nerf based on popularity instead in take into account the whole counter/balance debacle.

This could be.

Arciris · June 2017

Each time new patch notes are released, I jump in to read what has been nerfed, I call them the nerf notes now.
I wonder if there is an article in a psychology scientific publication about "nerfomania". That would be an interesting read.
Brb going to google that.

Back: nope, seems to be some kind of game.

sebban · June 2017

Honestly, the game gets less and less enjoyable the more nerfs we get. Players should look forward to patch notes, not fear the nerfs they bring. They've had 3 years to balance the game, but there is still no balance.

We used these builds when completing vHoF on PTS. Why they wait until now to nerf them is beyond me.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

sebban wrote: »

Honestly, the game gets less and less enjoyable the more nerfs we get. Players should look forward to patch notes, not fear the nerfs they bring. They've had 3 years to balance the game, but there is still no balance.

We used these builds when completing vHoF on PTS. Why they wait until now to nerf them is beyond me.

Richard Lambert confesses frustration that certain players figure out unintended ways of beating content, but don't always share their finding with the developers.

I can hardly be bugged to post my findings anymore just in case a developer wrongfully takes my words as permission to nerf something.

Waffennacht · June 2017

Very well written.

TLDR: devs make changes, players change meta to compensate, devs dislike player driven meta, nerf new meta, players at a loss as feedback and testing goes out the window

Zvorgin · June 2017

Haxer wrote: »

A whole lot of DK's mad their overpowered tanking gets brought down a peg.

Everything gets brought down a peg. I'd rather they raise the mob levels and stop nerfing everything.

seedubsrun · June 2017

Seems to me that in certain balance instances the nerf is totally warranted. The thing though is it should be used as one tool in the developer toolbox and only used carefully and with much thought. Zos falls down this rabbit hole of one nerf leads to another leads to another because they throw around nerfs like candy at a parade. They do themselves and the players a huge disservice by not appreciating the benefits of the almighty buffhammer. Here's what Zos should move towards:

1) Understand that yes, you are gods of this universe but not necessarily in control of it. You've created a game and given it to the people and they will always strive to find ways to be the best. No amount of nerfs will ever change that. Stop being helicopter parents and let us friggin play the game. Lots of changes are not needed, especially when you...

2) Learn when to nerf, when to buff, and when to let things happen organically. Get yourselves an info-graphic. Has the new meta sprung up because of an unintended exploit? No- Leave it alone. Yes- Does the exploit unbalance the game? Yes- Nerf. No- leave it alone. If they don't want players using just the meta builds the solution isn't to nerf the game so the build is no longer viable, the solution is to buff all the useless sets so they can be on par and instantly create dozens of new build options that are all viable. Some will still use the meta, many will go other routes. Theory crafters mouths will water with the sight of all that delicious potential. We'll get the promised "Play how you want to"

3) Separate PvE and PvP when it comes to balancing. This notion that there's no difference between moving from one to another and they should be experienced equally is the wrong position to take. When you go from PvE to PvP your skills, gear, and CP allocations change. This is all the evidence you should need that the two are vastly different. Treat them as such and you alleviate a lot of stress on developers and the community. Nerfs to PvP do in fact adversely affect PvE more than is acknowledged.

4)Add a third, harder difficulty option. There are people that will say end game content is too easy and others that couldn't disagree more. That suggests a huge gap in player skill and progression that's all happening in the same environment. Lowering the ceiling and raising the floor is not a solution. Instead, try expanding the room. Players bored with current content need a harder difficulty. Give cool options with rewards like new titles, costumes, dyes, maybe some furniture. Complete vMA naked or with the resource nerfs, or with white gear etc. This would eliminate some of the reasons for a nerf in the first place.

necronomniconb14_ESO · June 2017

Personofsecrets wrote: »

First and foremost, it is my general assumption that people like to do cool things. People like to try out new skills, apply old skills that they have learned in innovative ways, and people like to push the boundaries of what they are working on. Of course this generalization isn't always the case, but it is true a vast majority of the time.

As a consequence of that dynamic, players adapt to certain situations and create a metagame where larger portions of the player base understand about why players are doing the things that they do.

Recently, because you developers and the keen, yet unnecessary, idea to nerf player resources and standardize resource return of certain abilities, you created a new metagame. You created a new tanking metagame where most of what matters is having a high health pool. Several of us saw such a metagame coming from a mile a way. I will leave it to you developers to check Tamriel Foundry forums to find out that we new such a metagame was coming. It is apparent, with certain shield and Equilibrium nerfs happening right now, you didn't have a clue about what was occuring because of your lame resource nerfs.

Listen, I don't expect you to know about every little minutiae and that is especially true with tanking. Hell, I don't even want you to know about tanking at all because, every time you think you know something, a fun way of playing becomes permanently destroyed. What surprises me most is that you developers didn't make changes during the PTS as the strategies that people are using now were more or less used during the PTS. Once again, the PTS is proven to be mostly a ceremonial act that uses a small fraction of player input. By the way, there are still many skills that you have yet to standardize despite your made up and ever shifting vision of the game.

The truth is that standardizing the game doesn't matter so much. Standardization is a boogeyman. A non-standardized game has been so much fun for so many people up to this point. Doesn't that count for anything? You know, maybe people thrive on a little chaos. Maybe they need to think a little bit. You are using standardization just as an excuse in order to justify the changes that one of you developers cooked up in a lame sleep-deprive-addled brainstorming session where everyone has a case of the Mondays and so much caffeine that any idea sounds good.

What surprises me the most is how you developers, so often, chase you tails. You change x which, in a foreseeable way causes y, then you change y which, in a foreseeable way causes z, ad nausea. The development of this game is clearly a scenario of the dog (development team) being wagged by it's own tail (the metagame). You developers are not in control and, frankly, you should just embrace that lack of control by now. At least, after so many occasions of your failure, I hope that you come to expect the implications of the ill-wanted changes that you make.

First it was no stam regen while blocking and you made Black Rose. Then you removed block cost mitigation. Then it was Sturdy and the CP tree. Then it was the CP tree again. Did you all know that some people actual complain that Wrath is too strong of a passive ability? Did you ever think that any of this would be necessary? What exactly is your vision? Do you really having one? Can you release a copy of it for us all to see?

I say this quite proudly. The players have always been the ones to make this game fun and the developers get in the players way. Through tireless work and testing, players craft strategies that get around and bypass the foolish and unfun parts of this game. It is always the developers, who somehow finds going against the grain their job, who steps in between the players and a fun game.

"Oh no," the developer says, "we can't be having any of this particular enjoyment anymore." Back to the grinding stone players go to find a new way of destroying the developers hard work. You know that you developers wouldn't have such a tough and busy schedule if you didn't laser focus on constantly removing the parts of the game that players enjoy. Hell, based on the track record, you developers wouldn't have any work at all if you, not only stopped removing things that people enjoyed, but also stopped adding things that nobody wants. Maybe that is the point. Maybe this charade is just a form of job security for the balance team. I'm sure you all would have plenty to do without the unnecessary changes so what gives?

Trust me on this fact. The new adaptation to your changes to shielding and Equilibrium has already been done. You will find us using some new ways of playing and I bet those wont fit your overly-particular vision of the game either. Are you just going to keep sanding (removing fun game aspects) your carving (game) until there is nothing real left, until there is no palpable thing left for players to hold and bit into, or are you finally going to learn that this is the players game, not yours?

Sigtric wrote: »

That's a lot of words.

I sense a disturbance in the shill.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

First and foremost, it is my general assumption that people like to do cool things. People like to try out new skills, apply old skills that they have learned in innovative ways, and people like to push the boundaries of what they are working on. Of course this generalization isn't always the case, but it is true a vast majority of the time.

As a consequence of that dynamic, players adapt to certain situations and create a metagame where larger portions of the player base understand about why players are doing the things that they do.

Recently, because you developers and the keen, yet unnecessary, idea to nerf player resources and standardize resource return of certain abilities, you created a new metagame. You created a new tanking metagame where most of what matters is having a high health pool. Several of us saw such a metagame coming from a mile a way. I will leave it to you developers to check Tamriel Foundry forums to find out that we new such a metagame was coming. It is apparent, with certain shield and Equilibrium nerfs happening right now, you didn't have a clue about what was occuring because of your lame resource nerfs.

Listen, I don't expect you to know about every little minutiae and that is especially true with tanking. Hell, I don't even want you to know about tanking at all because, every time you think you know something, a fun way of playing becomes permanently destroyed. What surprises me most is that you developers didn't make changes during the PTS as the strategies that people are using now were more or less used during the PTS. Once again, the PTS is proven to be mostly a ceremonial act that uses a small fraction of player input. By the way, there are still many skills that you have yet to standardize despite your made up and ever shifting vision of the game.

The truth is that standardizing the game doesn't matter so much. Standardization is a boogeyman. A non-standardized game has been so much fun for so many people up to this point. Doesn't that count for anything? You know, maybe people thrive on a little chaos. Maybe they need to think a little bit. You are using standardization just as an excuse in order to justify the changes that one of you developers cooked up in a lame sleep-deprive-addled brainstorming session where everyone has a case of the Mondays and so much caffeine that any idea sounds good.

What surprises me the most is how you developers, so often, chase you tails. You change x which, in a foreseeable way causes y, then you change y which, in a foreseeable way causes z, ad nausea. The development of this game is clearly a scenario of the dog (development team) being wagged by it's own tail (the metagame). You developers are not in control and, frankly, you should just embrace that lack of control by now. At least, after so many occasions of your failure, I hope that you come to expect the implications of the ill-wanted changes that you make.

First it was no stam regen while blocking and you made Black Rose. Then you removed block cost mitigation. Then it was Sturdy and the CP tree. Then it was the CP tree again. Did you all know that some people actual complain that Wrath is too strong of a passive ability? Did you ever think that any of this would be necessary? What exactly is your vision? Do you really having one? Can you release a copy of it for us all to see?

I say this quite proudly. The players have always been the ones to make this game fun and the developers get in the players way. Through tireless work and testing, players craft strategies that get around and bypass the foolish and unfun parts of this game. It is always the developers, who somehow finds going against the grain their job, who steps in between the players and a fun game.

"Oh no," the developer says, "we can't be having any of this particular enjoyment anymore." Back to the grinding stone players go to find a new way of destroying the developers hard work. You know that you developers wouldn't have such a tough and busy schedule if you didn't laser focus on constantly removing the parts of the game that players enjoy. Hell, based on the track record, you developers wouldn't have any work at all if you, not only stopped removing things that people enjoyed, but also stopped adding things that nobody wants. Maybe that is the point. Maybe this charade is just a form of job security for the balance team. I'm sure you all would have plenty to do without the unnecessary changes so what gives?

Trust me on this fact. The new adaptation to your changes to shielding and Equilibrium has already been done. You will find us using some new ways of playing and I bet those wont fit your overly-particular vision of the game either. Are you just going to keep sanding (removing fun game aspects) your carving (game) until there is nothing real left, until there is no palpable thing left for players to hold and bit into, or are you finally going to learn that this is the players game, not yours?

Sigtric wrote: »

That's a lot of words.

I sense a disturbance in the shill.

Where is the shill?

Personofsecrets · June 2017

How is everyone's shield tonight?

Mine doesn't feel to be 200% strong - can someone explain the math please?

SienneYviete · June 2017

Your signature has never been more accurate.

Alcast · June 2017

What bugs me more is, that nobody bats an eye that basically 99.99% of the tanks are DKs. Last time I checked there are 4 other classes. Nobody ever likes nerfs, I really hope with Morrowind they are done nerfing and start "adjusting/buffing" weaker setups.

Personofsecrets · June 2017

Alcast wrote: »

What bugs me more is, that nobody bats an eye that basically 99.99% of the tanks are DKs. Last time I checked there are 4 other classes. Nobody ever likes nerfs, I really hope with Morrowind they are done nerfing and start "adjusting/buffing" weaker setups.

What do you think the reason is for DK being the major tank class @Alcast ?

Jamascus · June 2017

Cously wrote: »

The nerf tactic is simple. If is being overused then it's nerfed. I have no love for Sorcerers but even them got nerfed, many will argue the pet nerf wasn't enough but it demonstrated they nerf based on popularity instead in take into account the whole counter/balance debacle.

Overuse is not grounds for nerfs, providing an unfair advantage is.

Bowser · June 2017

The developers are playing whack-a-meta. Most of them were already hit with the Morrowind patch, and this shows they're ready to strike down any new ones that pop up.

Welcome to the era of Play How You Want - No Meta Allowed!