Stop Nerfing to Control the Top 1% Because It's Alienating Everyone Else

Garrick · June 2017

All the nerfs to classes and equipment seem to be aimed at controlling the top 1% of players, forcing them to play a certain way in PvP or PvE. I've seen this before in MMO after MMO, and it never works. All you are doing is driving away everyone else.

Let me explain. The top 1% have a lot of time to invest in the game. They have multiple characters, multiple classes, multiple races. They have a huge store of gold, crafting resources, and top tier equipment. When ZoS tries to control them, say to balance PvP or to reduce the speed that they blast through PvE, the top 1% can easily adapt.

ZoS nerfs a class: No matter, the top 1% have another character they can use.
ZoS nerfs equipment: The top 1% have plenty of other equipment and the money to gold it out.
ZoS nerfs a meta: See above - the top1% can easily adjust.

Even if the top 1% do not have the gear to adjust, they have the time to invest in obtaining it. Usually, within a week or two they have what they need - often much sooner.

All these nerfs are much more devastating to the remainder of the player base, except perhaps new players who are only just starting out, since they do not really need to pick a goal other than getting to 50. There are a lot of players with level 50 characters, and many have 300+ cps, but these people are not in the top 1%. For them, getting the gold, materials and equipment is a lengthy process, and the nerfs set them back many weeks and are very demoralizing.

My personal experience is this:

Just as I get a decent equipment set, ZoS nerfs it.
Just when I get really attached to a particular character/playstyle, ZoS nerfs it
Just when I think "I am ready to move onto more difficult content" - ZoS nerfs me

Now you might say "Suck it up, buttercup". You are entitled to your opinion, but realize that the game will not continue to grow if the player base dwindles. ZoS appear to be either trying to control or appease the top 1%, yet they are not going to continue to enhance the game if the top 1% is all that remains playing the game. Realize that I am not asking for a free handout here. I am not asking for content to be made easier. All I am asking is that ZoS stops changing stuff as a reaction to what the top 1% is doing.

Basically, the top 1% can easily react to whatever ZoS does, but the rest of us cannot. Personally, I don't care if some 1% guild is blasting through Hall of Fabrication too easily. Good for them. What I care about is changes that force me to go back to the grind in order to obtain new equipment, and changes that make progressing through content - like vet dungeons, trials and VMA - more time consuming. That is right: not "harder", just "time consuming". Take, for example, all the recent resource management changes. I am not against the idea, in principle, but the only effect of this on myself, a person who is "an average player", is as follows:

Killing stuff takes longer and is more boring: heavy attack, heavy attack, heavy attack - occasionally weave in a skill when I have resources.
Content is actually easier in many ways - because you have to go slower - it is just more boring.
Most of the equipment sets I was trying to put together were nerfed, and now I need to go after different sets - more grinding.
Trials and VMA just seem even further away. The more they are scaled up to challenge the 1%, the less inclined I am to attempt them. It is not the difficulty as such as it is the time requirement: it just takes longer and I cannot find the time window.

In conclusion: The nerfs seem aimed at controlling the top 1%. The top 1% have the resources to adapt. They cannot be controlled and - personally - I don't see why it is necessary. The nerfs have a much larger impact on other players, who have to grind more to adapt. The nerfs seem to make the way the game plays more boring, in PvE at least. Content is not harder, it just takes longer, and the playstyle is less dynamic than it used to be. I have seen the nerfbat kill many MMOs, and ZoS seem to be making the same mistake with ESO. Just to be clear: the mistake is balancing the game to the top 1% by nerfing. I believe it is unnecessary, and - for me at least - just makes the game more of a grind.

kunquatb16_ESO · June 2017

Garrick wrote: »

All the nerfs to classes and equipment seem to be aimed at controlling the top 1% of players, forcing them to play a certain way in PvP or PvE. I've seen this before in MMO after MMO, and it never works. All you are doing is driving away everyone else.

[Snipped]

In conclusion: The nerfs seem aimed at controlling the top 1%. The top 1% have the resources to adapt. They cannot be controlled and - personally - I don't see why it is necessary. The nerfs have a much larger impact on other players, who have to grind more to adapt. The nerfs seem to make the way the game plays more boring, in PvE at least. Content is not harder, it just takes longer, and the playstyle is less dynamic than it used to be. I have seen the nerfbat kill many MMOs, and ZoS seem to be making the same mistake with ESO. Just to be clear: the mistake is balancing the game to the top 1% by nerfing. I believe it is unnecessary, and - for me at least - just makes the game more of a grind.

All of what you said, and their insistence on balancing PvE and PvP together, like their the same thing.

CoachPower · June 2017

Couldn't agree more with this post.

OGNZ3 · June 2017

Lot of interesting things in what you said, I agree with lot of stuff.

However, you made 1 mistake that makes your said not as objectives they should : it is not about the 1% top player, but I would more say it is about the 20% top players, that make a huge difference in what you said about nerf killing the game..

Danksta · June 2017

If they were attempting to appease the top 1% then they should have more than 5 12-man trials 3 years into the game's existence.

HatchetHaro · June 2017

Completely agree with OP.

The thing is that ZOS does not know that the top 1% are there for a reason. They have no idea what it's like to be the top 1%. Everything they have done just makes it plain that they are far from being the top 1%.

These knee-jerk reaction nerfs only serve to separate the good players from the great.

ookami007 · June 2017

I agree wholeheartedly.

You find out that some fanboi with no real life, who spends every waking hour can do something the developers (in their infinite wisdom) did not intend, and they go nerf crazy, affecting not only that 1%, but making the game more difficult for the other 9% elites and the other 90% of casual players.

I've been playing MMO's since MMO's were a thing. No matter how good the developers are (or THINK they are), they simply will NEVER EVER devote the resources for proper testing, so there will ALWAYS be players who find little exploits because they can devote a near infinite amount of time to actually PLAYING the game. And anyone who devotes their life to the game, however sad, SHOULD be able to take advantage to these things.

As a casual player (read: I have a life, a job, a family, etc), I don't care that it's slightly easier for the 1%'s to do a particular dungeon or trial. What I DO care about is when I have a difficult time completely casual content because of crazy, incessant nerfs to get to some mythical "nirvana" of balance the dev's believe in - but which CANNOT and WILL NOT be achieved because their entire premise is false (PvP can be balanced with PvE).

DjMuscleboy02 · June 2017

Why do these posts keep popping up? The end game content in ESO is way too easy. Have you tried practicing a rotation? Soloing dungeons? Do you think this "1%" woke up one day able to no death Vmol HM? Why should the game cater to people who won't (or can't) invest the time? The NBA doesn't lower rims because I'm not able to dunk at 10ft.

Tavore1138 · June 2017

The basic premise of this is proved in that top players walked through the new trial in vet mode in less than a week, these things used to take months to get that first completion. Recent changes have hurt & demoralised players looking tp progress far more than those already at the ceiling.

But as they keep consulting the top 1% on what should be changed this is hardly a shock.

Case in point was the last minute buff to light attacks before MW, the only people it helped was those with good resources and the perfect rotations who would then end up with higher dps than before whereas the nerf to heavy attack damage would hit the dps of the larger population running in non-optimised groups needing to manage their resources with heavy attacks.

Kodrac · June 2017

Give this man an agree.

Slurg · June 2017

Oh absolutely. It's annoying. I have tons of gold and used to be able to just buy what I needed, but now I have to grind dungeons for the best sets because they are bound. I finally do enough dungeons to get good sets, and then they nerf the sets, but oh no that's not taking it far enough, they have to nerf my characters to make it a chore to farm dungeons too.

I'm a casual player and I play for fun. All the changes meant for the 1%ers is too much work for a game, so I'm not going to bother with trials or anything competitive for now. Which is fine for me, I can still find enough things to do to have fun, but I do feel for the people who want more from this game but can't have it without turning gaming into an unpaid job.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

This is why I love my spot that's solidly in the top 4% but outside the top 1%. Let's me complain about everything and nothing is my fault.

In all seriousness though ... I have a full time job and only one character worth anything. But I knew I wanted to be as hardcore as I could reasonably be within those constraints, so I planned out my Magplar years in advance. So while I don't have an uber sorc, for example, I have a character that can easily adapt to any game changes and always stay reasonably competitive at all the game modes.

Mostly it just requires the following ...

- ESO plus
- Hoarding everything imaginable with the right traits.
- Being a master crafter.
- Patience
- Lot and LOTS of gold.

So yeah, the OP makes a good point, no doubt ... but if you take a REALLY long term Philadelphia 76ers-like view of the game they can be overcome.

seedubsrun · June 2017

I agree with you there. There will always be theory crafters that can perfectly match up gear with the right skills and create a new meta after the other gets nerfed to death. The changes don't affect those players, they affect the ones that watch the content creator videos, visit the websites, and follow on forums to stay current on what's happening. They're also the ones that get accused of being whiners and get told to "Git gud". The thing is, for the average player that isn't amazing but still wants to get into a trials group without getting kicked, complete vMA, be reasonably competitive in PvP, they rely on these builds make the game playable. Getting good in a game that has a handful of current metas basically requires you to subscribe to those metas. When a build gets nerfed out of existence the top 1% just swap to something else they've been toying with, perfect it, make a video or build guide, and then sit back and wait till it's killed and go on to the next one. Average players or those with little time struggle to keep up and by the time they get the gear they want and begin to "Git gud" they're told to scrap what they've been doing and learn to play a different way. Those that are already good will stay that way those attempting to get there will have to start all over.
I was getting bored with my pet sorc so I farmed BSW for something different. I finally got all divines gear for my sorc, farmed all the mats needed to get it to legendary and the next week the nerf to BSW was announced. As someone who is pretty good and wants to max my character, my only options are: Create a magDK, use this now inferior set anyway, or work on accepting that I've completely wasted hours and hours and dozens of pricey mats for absolutely nothing.
My question is why? What does it actually matter if BSW is really powerful? It should be, it takes a lot of time to get. To me, it seems like they should focus on making more sets really powerful so players aren't backed into this meta corner we have going. Give other options that encourage different play styles so players can be unique and play like they want. After all, that's what we were promised. I saw in another thread a quote from a Diablo 3 creator/dev/something that spoke of how they needed to learn how to be generous to the player. That in the end a player that leaves the game happy will come back when there's new content to enjoy while a player that leaves angry and screwed over wont. There's something to the idea that if everyone is powerful then no one is. That in and of itself is a balance. Instead of spending all this developer time nerfing the crap out of things, changing everything every 6 months, and causing these forums to be filled with angry gamers, spend that time making the game fun with tons of options that make players feel like they're powerful, have choice, and are empowered to forge their own paths to "Gitting gud". #makeTamrielgreatagain

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2017

Good post, OP.

Well written. Well communicated.

There's only one flaw.

ZOS doesn't give two-*** what you, I, or anyone else thinks. If your opinion doesn't give ZOS glowing praise, or doesn't fit exactly within their "vision" for the game, you will be summarily ignored. Either that, or you get canned PR responses that say "we're listening", then they make changes like they are making with the Morrowind Update that are the exact opposite of Player desires/concerns.

So; a great post, but you've wasted your words because ZOS doesn't give a *** what their Players think. If you don't have a regular Twitch stream, or if you aren't in that <1%, then you won't ever get ZOS's ear. Ever.

DoccEff · June 2017

Totally agree, yet Zos doesn't seem to care that much about non-progress and non-casual players.

ol_BANK_lo · June 2017

Agreed...more or less.

1) ZOS doesn't seem to like it when top guilds or individuals burn through their veteran content like it's on normal. I told them that their changes to sustain didn't hurt the top players, only the less skilled who already run out of resources and die a lot. Mechanics will only be harder. There are guilds that beat HM vMoL on the 5th pad, when 99+% of people can't beat it at all. These same guilds beat HM HoF on the first day it goes live. Many will never beat it. There are the 29 min VMA people, and then people who literally can't beat it, even given a year (I know both of these people).

2) ZOS doesn't seem to like meta builds. It has taken time to witness this, but ZOS seems to nerf whatever the meta is, even if it's created by them (i.e. heavy armor Black Rose PVP). It appears to me that the reason they take such drastic measures is because they literally have no clue or forethought of how their builds will work in actual gameplay. They make cool sounding sets and skills, and then wait to see how it gets abused. Then they nerf the *** out of it. Grinding over and over for the next build is ridiculously boring, and I don't have the time some do...nor the interest. PVE is my first priority, and then PVP. My Twice Born set - useless with change to War Horn. My BSW sets - no longer BiS because they are nerfed. This will just keep happening, and will collect gold sets that collect dust. I just spent about 2 mil gold getting all the latest Plague Doctor and Green Pact because nerfs to max resources and the new high damage trial. Guess what - heavily nerfed Igneous Shield and Equilibrium before Morrowind even drops. Thanks ZOS! What a waste. PC makes meta build...everyone follows...ZOS nerfs before we can even use. As the OP said, there are people that have the time to grind out a new set or build in a matter of days, and don't care that much. I don't. It ends up monopolizing my time trying to catch up. Just finally got my Twice Fanged set...I'm sure that'll get nerfed as it becomes stam meta.

3) ZOS is so focused on trying to fix broken content and stop the meta builds, it appears it is hindering new content (or I would like to think). Cyrodiil is unplayable at busy times. vMoL has been broken on Xbox longer than it has worked (not an exaggeration). Blah blah blah, we've heard it all before. They think they can "lower the ceiling and raise the floor". It just isn't going to happen. Good players will always be good players. Less skilled players will always struggle. Stop trying to balance the game with mega-nerfs. Just put out new content that caters to a build or playstyle. That way I can use all my grinded gold sets and skills differently in different content.

I'm just exhausted with ZOS. Just isn't fun. I've hated the vMoL thing. But I have used my time to finish up other sets I didn't have time to get, skyshard hunting on a few characters, VMA on a couple toons that hadn't cleared it, etc. But this mega-sustain nerf to the boredom playstyle and nerf to my brand new 2 mil gold tank setup is just too much. They find ways to keep putting out new things to buy in the crown store, but not make the content playable. Do they not care? Are they understaffed? Bad programmers? Not sure. And my guess is the reason they decided to charge for Morrowind is they have lost too much of their original player base, and have to start making essentially a new game every year to bring in new players.

I guess I am with the Syphers and Deltias of the world. They have made the game boring and stagnant with grinding, unplayable content, and nerfing the hell out of what is meta (which there will always be meta in PVE). They say they want you to play any character the way you want, but only if it fits what ZOS wants you to play and they way they want you to play it. I didn't buy Morrowind because of the direction, and now I think they killed the game for me. Just straight lost interest.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2017

There is actually a hierarchy of game knowledge that gets overlooked.

Tier One: Super Long Term players/ the spreadsheet guy from your guild/ some streamers

Tier Two: most streamers/ regular forum visitors/ guild leaders who listen to the spreadsheet guy

Tier Three: people who listen or watch people from tier 2.

Tier Four: 80% of the player base

Tier Five: god help you.

Fact is probably 80% of the really knowledgeable people can be found here but they get drowned out by the OMGROLFNERFZZZZ crowd quite often.

The fact that you are even willing to look online for a forum puts you're knowledge level past a majority of the player base. Most of us are much closer to that 1% than you think and much closer than that 1% likes to believe.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2017

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Agreed...more or less.

1) ZOS doesn't seem to like it when top guilds or individuals burn through their veteran content like it's on normal. I told them that their changes to sustain didn't hurt the top players, only the less skilled who already run out of resources and die a lot. Mechanics will only be harder.

2) ZOS doesn't seem to like meta builds. It has taken time to witness this, but ZOS seems to nerf whatever the meta is, even if it's created by them (i.e. heavy armor Black Rose PVP). It appears to me that the reason they take such drastic measures is because they literally have no clue or forethought of how their builds will work in actual gameplay. They make cool sounding sets and skills, and then wait to see how it gets abused. Then they nerf the *** out of it. Grinding over and over for the next build is ridiculously boring, and I don't have the time some do...nor the interest. PVE is my first priority, and then PVP. My Twice Born set - useless with change to War Horn. My BSW sets - no longer BiS because they are nerfed. This will just keep happening, and will collect gold sets that collect dust. I just spent about 2 mil gold getting all the latest Plague Doctor and Green Pact because nerfs to max resources and high damage trial. Guess what - heavily nerfed Igneous Shield and Equilibrium before Morrowind even drops. Thanks ZOS! What a waste. PC makes meta build...everyone follows...ZOS nerfs before we can even use.

3) ZOS is so focused on trying to fix broken content and stop the meta builds, it appears it is hindering new content (or I would like to think). Cyrodiil is unplayable at busy times. vMoL has been broken on Xbox longer than it has worked (not an exaggeration). Blah blah blah, we've heard it all before. They think they can "lower the ceiling and raise the floor". It just isn't going to happen. Good players will always be good players. Less skilled players will always struggle. Stop trying to balance the game with mega-nerfs. Just put out new content that caters to a build or playstyle. That way I can use all my grinded gold sets and skills differently in different content.

I'm just exhausted with ZOS. Just isn't fun. I've hated the vMoL thing. But I have used my time to finish up other sets I didn't have time to get, skyshard hunting on a few characters, VMA on a couple toons that hadn't cleared it, etc. But this mega-sustain nerf to the boredom playstyle and nerf to my brand new 2 mil gold tank setup is just too much. They find ways to keep putting out new things to buy in the crown store, but not make the content playable. Do they not care? Are they understaffed? Bad programmers? Not sure. And my guess is the reason they decided to charge for Morrowind is they have lost too much of their original player base, and have to start making essentially a new game every year to bring in new players.

I guess I am with the Syphers and Deltias of the world. They have made the game boring and stagnant with grinding, unplayable content, and nerfing the hell out of what is meta (which there will always be meta in PVE). They say they want you to play any character the way you want, but only if it fits want ZOS wants you to play and they way they want you to play it. I didn't buy Morrowind because of the direction, and now I think they killed the game for me. Just straight lost interest.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Well said.

ofSunhold · June 2017

I think it's pretty clear from a number of ongoing policies that more grind is intentional.

They want us to have to grind.

If that were not the case, we wouldn't have so many useless weapon and armor traits cluttering up the drop tables. We would have token systems so people could do VMA n times and then just buy the thing we didn't get as a drop. BIS sets wouldn't be uniformly BOP.

It isn't an undesired side-effect of the changes they make. It's intentional.

I agree with you entirely that all of this stuff hits lower levels and people with less cushioning and resources harder than it will those at the top. It's a shame the devs can't give them some way to create their own challenges and deal with their boredom and OPness that way.

DjMuscleboy02 · June 2017

seedubsrun wrote: »

I agree with you there. There will always be theory crafters that can perfectly match up gear with the right skills and create a new meta after the other gets nerfed to death. The changes don't affect those players, they affect the ones that watch the content creator videos, visit the websites, and follow on forums to stay current on what's happening. They're also the ones that get accused of being whiners and get told to "Git gud". The thing is, for the average player that isn't amazing but still wants to get into a trials group without getting kicked, complete vMA, be reasonably competitive in PvP, they rely on these builds make the game playable. Getting good in a game that has a handful of current metas basically requires you to subscribe to those metas. When a build gets nerfed out of existence the top 1% just swap to something else they've been toying with, perfect it, make a video or build guide, and then sit back and wait till it's killed and go on to the next one. Average players or those with little time struggle to keep up and by the time they get the gear they want and begin to "Git gud" they're told to scrap what they've been doing and learn to play a different way. Those that are already good will stay that way those attempting to get there will have to start all over.
I was getting bored with my pet sorc so I farmed BSW for something different. I finally got all divines gear for my sorc, farmed all the mats needed to get it to legendary and the next week the nerf to BSW was announced. As someone who is pretty good and wants to max my character, my only options are: Create a magDK, use this now inferior set anyway, or work on accepting that I've completely wasted hours and hours and dozens of pricey mats for absolutely nothing.
My question is why? What does it actually matter if BSW is really powerful? It should be, it takes a lot of time to get. To me, it seems like they should focus on making more sets really powerful so players aren't backed into this meta corner we have going. Give other options that encourage different play styles so players can be unique and play like they want. After all, that's what we were promised. I saw in another thread a quote from a Diablo 3 creator/dev/something that spoke of how they needed to learn how to be generous to the player. That in the end a player that leaves the game happy will come back when there's new content to enjoy while a player that leaves angry and screwed over wont. There's something to the idea that if everyone is powerful then no one is. That in and of itself is a balance. Instead of spending all this developer time nerfing the crap out of things, changing everything every 6 months, and causing these forums to be filled with angry gamers, spend that time making the game fun with tons of options that make players feel like they're powerful, have choice, and are empowered to forge their own paths to "Gitting gud". #makeTamrielgreatagain

Holy Wall of text, not sure where to start...

I'll first begin by saying that these builds include the "Best in slot" items. You do not need "BIS" items to complete trials, you do not need those items to complete any content in this game. In fact, in most cases it hardly make that much of a difference anyway. The difference comes from wanting to do competitive score runs. Julianos, a crafted set that takes literally 3 minutes to get, is only marginally worse than BSW. If you don't have time to farm things like that, just use something else. It's actually that simple. Julianos and Twice Born are both solid sets for any magic build. For your monster sets, you don't need perfect trait divines, just use infused or sturdy who cares. Players are getting so fixated on these builds that Alcast and the like put out that they forget that those builds are "best in slot" as in, the absolute optimal setup. Not the only setup.

The next bit of this you may not like hearing. If you can't put in the time to get good enough to do trials then maybe they just aren't meant for you. They really aren't that hard, believe me. I do play quite often because I enjoy playing the game, but I know people who play an hour or two a day that are plenty good for trials. If you're struggling to do trials because of the difficulty and you're unable to put in the time to get better, then maybe you should stick to easier content. It is the most difficult content in the game for a reason. It's not intended for everyone, and if you want to do it badly enough then you'll push to get good enough.

But please stop crying for nerfs to content that is already too easy.

idk · June 2017

The nerfs were intended to flatten out the difference between the top players and the not so top players.

I think the idea is that everyone can pretty much heavy attack just as well as the next guy and that someone has to really mess up placing CP for it to be bad.

Sigtric · June 2017

Percentages wrong. I am definitely not in the top %1.

This seems like a bottom 3% issue to me.

[snip]

[Edit for baiting]

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The nerfs were intended to flatten out the difference between the top players and the not so top players.

I think the idea is that everyone can pretty much heavy attack just as well as the next guy and that someone has to really mess up placing CP for it to be bad.

The problem though, is that the changes do the exact opposite.

The changes widen the already expansive gulf between the regular, Casual Players and the top 1% players.

A gulf that is uniformly much more difficult to bridge after Morrowind than it was before Morrowind.

Alchemical · June 2017

Your argument makes no sense. You say they're either trying to control OR appease the 1% which are completely incongruous goals. There's no way one could be mistaken for the other because they are diametrically opposed. You also say things to the effect of the game is being balanced around them while also claiming they're attempting to nerf the 1%. Again, those are two completely unlike things, it can't be both. If the game were being balanced around the 1% then their performance standard would be made the base level, rather than de-powering sets and builds these players utilize. You are arguing against your own arguments by asserting there are conflicting motivations for the changes.

Developers react to impersonal data metrics and balance around that, they're not out to get you or anyone else. If something becomes too popular or too over used it will inevitably be nerfed to prevent overgeneralizing and stagnation (which make the game boring and people quit). If everyone is doing the exact same thing, then the devs will naturally react to it, so blame cookie-cutter builds EVERYONE copies before you blame the 1% you yourself admit are uncontrollable factors.

seedubsrun · June 2017

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Agreed...more or less.

1) ZOS doesn't seem to like it when top guilds or individuals burn through their veteran content like it's on normal. I told them that their changes to sustain didn't hurt the top players, only the less skilled who already run out of resources and die a lot. Mechanics will only be harder. There are guilds that beat HM vMoL on the 5th pad, when 99+% of people can't beat it at all. These same guilds beat HM HoF on the first day it goes live. Many will never beat it. There are the 29 min VMA people, and then people who literally can't beat it, even given a year (I know both of these people).

2) ZOS doesn't seem to like meta builds. It has taken time to witness this, but ZOS seems to nerf whatever the meta is, even if it's created by them (i.e. heavy armor Black Rose PVP). It appears to me that the reason they take such drastic measures is because they literally have no clue or forethought of how their builds will work in actual gameplay. They make cool sounding sets and skills, and then wait to see how it gets abused. Then they nerf the *** out of it. Grinding over and over for the next build is ridiculously boring, and I don't have the time some do...nor the interest. PVE is my first priority, and then PVP. My Twice Born set - useless with change to War Horn. My BSW sets - no longer BiS because they are nerfed. This will just keep happening, and will collect gold sets that collect dust. I just spent about 2 mil gold getting all the latest Plague Doctor and Green Pact because nerfs to max resources and high damage trial. Guess what - heavily nerfed Igneous Shield and Equilibrium before Morrowind even drops. Thanks ZOS! What a waste. PC makes meta build...everyone follows...ZOS nerfs before we can even use.

3) ZOS is so focused on trying to fix broken content and stop the meta builds, it appears it is hindering new content (or I would like to think). Cyrodiil is unplayable at busy times. vMoL has been broken on Xbox longer than it has worked (not an exaggeration). Blah blah blah, we've heard it all before. They think they can "lower the ceiling and raise the floor". It just isn't going to happen. Good players will always be good players. Less skilled players will always struggle. Stop trying to balance the game with mega-nerfs. Just put out new content that caters to a build or playstyle. That way I can use all my grinded gold sets and skills differently in different content.

I'm just exhausted with ZOS. Just isn't fun. I've hated the vMoL thing. But I have used my time to finish up other sets I didn't have time to get, skyshard hunting on a few characters, VMA on a couple toons that hadn't cleared it, etc. But this mega-sustain nerf to the boredom playstyle and nerf to my brand new 2 mil gold tank setup is just too much. They find ways to keep putting out new things to buy in the crown store, but not make the content playable. Do they not care? Are they understaffed? Bad programmers? Not sure. And my guess is the reason they decided to charge for Morrowind is they have lost too much of their original player base, and have to start making essentially a new game every year to bring in new players.

I guess I am with the Syphers and Deltias of the world. They have made the game boring and stagnant with grinding, unplayable content, and nerfing the hell out of what is meta (which there will always be meta in PVE). They say they want you to play any character the way you want, but only if it fits want ZOS wants you to play and they way they want you to play it. I didn't buy Morrowind because of the direction, and now I think they killed the game for me. Just straight lost interest.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

1) Exactly. Top players will always blaze through content. That's the perks of being very good. Nerfing the game to stop that is an exercise in futility. They need to let those players be good to give the players that aren't a little hope that with practice they can get there too. If that's not enough for Zos then get on with a third harder difficulty.

2) Like I said above, the way to tame the meta build existence we're forced into isn't to constantly nerf the meta but to buff other sets so there are more options that are as good. Theory crafters will have a field day with all the potential, players that don't want to use the meta can still be really powerful, average players will have more accessible options, it'll be ok to get bored with a build cause you'll be afforded the choice toc ome up with something new that's still as good.

3) There's an endless amount of bugs and glitches; things that have been broken for months. When I see patch notes these days I see hours and hours of wasted dev time that could've been used on lag in Cyrodiil, console MoL, dozens of other things. We could've had a Warden class that doesn't suck, a Morrowind expansion with more content.

Sure, there are plenty of things that get out of balance with updating a game over time but this "Take a nerfhammer to it all" mentality has got to stop. There's clearly more creative ways to fix problems that don't demoralize the games base.

MarzAttakz · June 2017

ookami007 wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly.

You find out that some fanboi with no real life, who spends every waking hour can do something the developers (in their infinite wisdom) did not intend, and they go nerf crazy, affecting not only that 1%, but making the game more difficult for the other 9% elites and the other 90% of casual players.

I've been playing MMO's since MMO's were a thing. No matter how good the developers are (or THINK they are), they simply will NEVER EVER devote the resources for proper testing, so there will ALWAYS be players who find little exploits because they can devote a near infinite amount of time to actually PLAYING the game. And anyone who devotes their life to the game, however sad, SHOULD be able to take advantage to these things.

As a casual player (read: I have a life, a job, a family, etc), I don't care that it's slightly easier for the 1%'s to do a particular dungeon or trial. What I DO care about is when I have a difficult time completely casual content because of crazy, incessant nerfs to get to some mythical "nirvana" of balance the dev's believe in - but which CANNOT and WILL NOT be achieved because their entire premise is false (PvP can be balanced with PvE).

Totally this for me personally, in combination with the OP. Casual in this context is that I'm at the age now where life > game, strangely enough I'm also at the age where I'll choose to financially support something I enjoy as long as when I get time to sit down and enjoy "me" time it is fun. I said goodbye to Eve Online, Lotro, The Secret World, Neverwinter, FFXIV, Guild Wars 2 and some I can't even remember.

Goodbye ESO too? I hope not but I'm mad at myself for not trusting my gut...

Joy_Division · June 2017

We've been saying this to ZoS ever since the leaks for PAX East. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/328864/warlord-and-magician-cp-being-removed-in-morrowind/p1

They don't care.

AcadianPaladin · June 2017

I agree completely with the original post. I play every day and have almost a year in the game. I focus primarily on one spec/class (magplar). I visit here each day to learn more. I practice and try to improve. I limit my content to that with which I'm comfortable - no vet, elite or pvp for me. Yet, I dread each update as they simply render the game less fun for me.

seedubsrun · June 2017

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

I agree with you there. There will always be theory crafters that can perfectly match up gear with the right skills and create a new meta after the other gets nerfed to death. The changes don't affect those players, they affect the ones that watch the content creator videos, visit the websites, and follow on forums to stay current on what's happening. They're also the ones that get accused of being whiners and get told to "Git gud". The thing is, for the average player that isn't amazing but still wants to get into a trials group without getting kicked, complete vMA, be reasonably competitive in PvP, they rely on these builds make the game playable. Getting good in a game that has a handful of current metas basically requires you to subscribe to those metas. When a build gets nerfed out of existence the top 1% just swap to something else they've been toying with, perfect it, make a video or build guide, and then sit back and wait till it's killed and go on to the next one. Average players or those with little time struggle to keep up and by the time they get the gear they want and begin to "Git gud" they're told to scrap what they've been doing and learn to play a different way. Those that are already good will stay that way those attempting to get there will have to start all over.
I was getting bored with my pet sorc so I farmed BSW for something different. I finally got all divines gear for my sorc, farmed all the mats needed to get it to legendary and the next week the nerf to BSW was announced. As someone who is pretty good and wants to max my character, my only options are: Create a magDK, use this now inferior set anyway, or work on accepting that I've completely wasted hours and hours and dozens of pricey mats for absolutely nothing.
My question is why? What does it actually matter if BSW is really powerful? It should be, it takes a lot of time to get. To me, it seems like they should focus on making more sets really powerful so players aren't backed into this meta corner we have going. Give other options that encourage different play styles so players can be unique and play like they want. After all, that's what we were promised. I saw in another thread a quote from a Diablo 3 creator/dev/something that spoke of how they needed to learn how to be generous to the player. That in the end a player that leaves the game happy will come back when there's new content to enjoy while a player that leaves angry and screwed over wont. There's something to the idea that if everyone is powerful then no one is. That in and of itself is a balance. Instead of spending all this developer time nerfing the crap out of things, changing everything every 6 months, and causing these forums to be filled with angry gamers, spend that time making the game fun with tons of options that make players feel like they're powerful, have choice, and are empowered to forge their own paths to "Gitting gud". #makeTamrielgreatagain

Holy Wall of text, not sure where to start...

I'll first begin by saying that these builds include the "Best in slot" items. You do not need "BIS" items to complete trials, you do not need those items to complete any content in this game. In fact, in most cases it hardly make that much of a difference anyway. The difference comes from wanting to do competitive score runs. Julianos, a crafted set that takes literally 3 minutes to get, is only marginally worse than BSW. If you don't have time to farm things like that, just use something else. It's actually that simple. Julianos and Twice Born are both solid sets for any magic build. For your monster sets, you don't need perfect trait divines, just use infused or sturdy who cares. Players are getting so fixated on these builds that Alcast and the like put out that they forget that those builds are "best in slot" as in, the absolute optimal setup. Not the only setup.

The next bit of this you may not like hearing. If you can't put in the time to get good enough to do trials then maybe they just aren't meant for you. They really aren't that hard, believe me. I do play quite often because I enjoy playing the game, but I know people who play an hour or two a day that are plenty good for trials. If you're struggling to do trials because of the difficulty and you're unable to put in the time to get better, then maybe you should stick to easier content. It is the most difficult content in the game for a reason. It's not intended for everyone, and if you want to do it badly enough then you'll push to get good enough.

But please stop crying for nerfs to content that is already too easy.

First of all, I'm plenty good enough for any content in this game and have completed most of it. Any I haven't is due to not having enough time to play not skill. All I'm saying is i can understand where the players that feel the way I mentioned are coming from, and there's a ton of those players. Yeah I can use Julianos, I have for a while. I wanted something else, something to grind for, something that made me change my skills a bit and make me feel like I was doing something new for a change. I set a goal and I achieved it. The problem is, that achievement was immediately negated for no good reason. Is that the feeling people want from the games they try to enjoy and invest time and money into? Is it so wrong to want to use the BiS gear?

As for the rest of your comment, it seems like you probably just stopped reading what I wrote and tossed in a standard "git gud, L2P, quit crying" comment. Kinda makes your counter unhelpful which is a shame since a good conversation is all we're trying to have since Zos doesn't actually care.

skyhawk002 · June 2017

I agree 100%. But wish to add like, with the stock market I do not want to heavily invest when there is uncertainty and unpredictability by the ZoS developers. As a person with little in game gold, I cannot afford to gold out gear only or invest in a class to have it rendered useless the next week.

The unpredictability from week to week balancing makes me question my in time commitment in the game on many different levels.

Tldr: Fruitless call for more rational thought and discourse between ZoS and players to understand a method to this madness. We have no input anymore beside leaving and bad/good press.

Cously · June 2017

Yes, I was one of the maniacs who ran the ultra health build, since Plague Doctor was introduced, before it was meta. That kind of playstyle might be super powerful in the hands of a super skilled player with super skilled teams. But anything in the hand of super skilled players and super skilled team will look "op". However, that build which I titled THE PUG CARRIER, enabled me to carry hundreds of players through dungeons. I carried my guild mates in order to let them experience the content, learn mechanics or just get that dye colour they wanted. I carried lots of pugs in group finder that without this build would have no chance to complete a dungeon without frustration of being dropped of. When I saw that my pug healer had a bow and my two dps were under CP 100, I feared nothing, because I knew whilst it would be slow to complete the dungeon, I also knew with this build I could help them perform much better and not get discouraged. Haha will I waste 2 hours of my life with pugs now? No. *** tanking. Thank you very much for killing a build that helped the community massively. Many of pugs I ran with ended up joining my guild where I further trained them but many of they admited their previous dungeons experiences were horrible and they considered staying away from PVE entirely. Good job ZOS!