"So, you imply that there is no relationship between the damage which an equipped weapon inflicts, and whether it is used to make a Light or Heavy Attack. Frankly, I don't believe you."

What? Heavy and light attacks (I'm pretty sure) scale to weapon/spell damage. However there is no "tooltip" for ha and la. Of course changing weapon/spell DMG changes your ha or la. (Same with Stam/magicka to a lesser extent)

Now a heavy lightning staff will deal less damage than say a heavy fire staff attack, but that's passives and channel/dot type differences.

I'm curious as to what you are looking for?

Waffennacht wrote: »

"So, you imply that there is no relationship between the damage which an equipped weapon inflicts, and whether it is used to make a Light or Heavy Attack. Frankly, I don't believe you."

What? Heavy and light attacks (I'm pretty sure) scale to weapon/spell damage. However there is no "tooltip" for ha and la. Of course changing weapon/spell DMG changes your ha or la. (Same with Stam/magicka to a lesser extent)

Now a heavy lightning staff will deal less damage than say a heavy fire staff attack, but that's passives and channel/dot type differences.

I'm curious as to what you are looking for?

Well, what I'm trying to figure out is the significance of the Damage shown on a staff. That is, it has a damage amount just as axes, maces, and swords do. The damage amount shown on a staff tooltip is the same for each staff type which has the same minimum Level that a PC must have to equip that staff. The damage amount increases linearly from the lowest required Level as the Level required to equip it increases -- just as the damage amounts for other weapons increase.

Also note that every PC always has both Spell Damage and Physical Damage amounts displayed on the "paper doll" as integer numbers, respectively. Increasing the maximum amount of Magicka which a PC can have increases the Spell Damage amount, and increasing the maximum amount of Stamina which a PC can have increases the Physical Damage amount.

First, casting a spell consumes Magicka and usually inflicts Magic Damage (a type of Spell Damage), but it might be Fire Damage, Frost Damage, Shock Damage, or Elemental Damage -- among others -- instead. I assume that those damage types are considered Spell Damage when they are inflicted by casting a Spell. It seems likely to me that the PC's Spell Damage amount is added to the Spell Damage that is done by the Spell which the PC casts.

Second, a question: does attacking with a staff, per se, inflict Spell Damage or Physical damage?

Edit: the "short answer" is, a tooltip for Maximum Magicka on the "paper doll" -- displayed when a player uses the Inventory UI to list the items in the character's bags -- implies that the PC's Spell Damage increases the amount of damage that is done by attacking with a Staff. The tooltip for Maximum Stamina lists all other weapons for which damage is increased by the PC's Physical Damage.

The first effect of equipping one of the three Destruction Staves or the Restoration Staff is simply to enable the PC to cast certain Spells, in the corresponding Skill line. Consequently, the damage is inflicted by the Spell, not by the staff. Although, the kind of damage and status effects, etc., may differ according to the specific staff that is equipped when the Spell is cast. Regardless, the Damage Amount, per se, shown on the tooltip for the staff itself appears irrelevant.

However, equipping a staff is not just to gain access to casting the Spells associated with it. The staff itself is a two-handed weapon, used to inflict damage to a distant target. Ordinarily, it is not used to physically batter the target (unlike an axe, mace, or sword). Instead, using an Inferno Staff burns the target with fireballs; using a Frost Staff chills the target or hurls ice at it; and using a Lightning Staff shocks the target with a bolt(s) of lightning. Using a Restoration Staff to attack an enemy simply drains Health from the target.

In this usage, the Damage Amount of the staff should affect how much damage the target suffers. Whether it is the Spell Damage or it is the Physical Damage which the PC has also affects how much damage the target suffers after a staff is used is unclear, although one would think that it would be Physical Damage. Fire, ice, and electricity damage and destroy flesh. (Edit: see the "short answer" above.)

When a PC uses a staff to Block or to Bash, those are physical actions, i.e., using the staff as a hand-held contact weapon per se. A Bash is a physical attack, so it should be affected by the Physical Damage which the PC can inflict, if not also by the amount of damage which the staff can inflict. (Edit: But for Bash with a staff, the PC's Spell Damage is probably used instead of the PC's Physical Damage.)

Now remember: my OP started with a quote from the Patch Notes about changes in the amount of damage afflicted by Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks. I don't know about you, but in my experience, every attack is always made with something: a spell, a weapon, a shield, or the character's fist(s). It isn't made with a "light" or a "heavy". For example, a PC can make a light attack with an Inferno Staff, or make a heavy attack with it. Clearly, the words "light" and "heavy" describe an attack, not name it. In other words, they are adjectives, not nouns.

Which implies that whether an attack is "light" or "heavy" modifies the damage that results from using a weapon, a shield, or a fist(s) to attack an enemy, in the same way that whether an attack expends Magicka or Stamina increases the damage. As to how much the damage inflicted by using a weapon, a shield, or a fist(s) is modified for a light attack or for a heavy attack, I don't know.

Granted, I do not know the intricate details of TESO combat system. My cumulative personal experience is the only guide that I have for discerning when to use spells or weapons, and for selecting the current target to attack. But what the Patch Notes state is that whatever amount of damage that was previously done by a Light Attack has increased by 15%, and that whatever amount of damage that was previously done by a Heavy Attack has decreased by 20%.

Xvorg wrote: »

....

As the guys above said, there's no tooltip for dmg done with light or heavy attacks. Bear in mind that the dmg you put varies from enemy to enemy.

Yeah, apparently, no one who has replied to my OP understands the question.

Xvorg wrote: »

I've noticed a decrease in full heavy flame staff with my mDK near to what the tooltip says, but it changes from enemy to enemy..

To which tooltip are you referring?

If a target is immune to some effect of an attack, then the message "Target is immune" is output to the upper right corner of the video graphics display. In my experience so far, a target is very rarely entirely immune to being damaged by a Spell or an attack with a weapon, shield, or fist(s).

However, various creatures receive a significantly lower amount of damage according to whether the PC uses a Fire Staff or Frost Staff. For example, there are hordes of Large Bats (or Banshees ?) that join the battle against a certain pair of dungeon bosses, and they suffer only 25% of the damage inflicted by attacking with an Ice Staff. Elemental fire creatures apparently receive less damage if the attack is made with a Frost Staff, and Elemental ice creatures apparently receive less damage if the attack is made with a Fire Staff.

But it also goes the other way, i.e., some creatures are susceptible to Fire Damage or Frost Damage. For example, Zombies and Werewolves suffer more damage than they otherwise would when they receive Fire Damage, although I can't recall how much the damage is increased.

So far, I have not encountered any enemy which has appeared to be more or to be less resistant to attacks made with a Restoration Staff.

Also, I cannot recall any fight in which an enemy was either less susceptible or more susceptible to Shock Damage, but it would not surprise me if there are some that I might have not fought or might have overlooked.

There have been a few boss fights in which my Sorcerer cast the Power Overload ultimate, but his attacks did not seem to be as effective as they usually are. There have been also a few boss fights in which my Sorcerer cast the Power Overload ultimate and simply could not make a light or heavy attack, only use the short-range AoE produced by Bash.

Hluill wrote: »

So, now I am confused too. What do those numbers mean?

On the face of it, each weapon type is assigned a numerical Damage Amount to use, first, to compare the damage which can be inflicted with very different weapons, such as axes, maces, swords, bows, and staves, respectively.

But the Damage Amount is also used in calculating the damage which an enemy PC/NPC receives when that weapon hits them. Other factors also affect the result of the calculation. For example, whether the attack is a light one (faster, less force applied), or a heavy one (slower, more force applied) makes a difference in the amount of damage that the enemy receives.

Hluill wrote: »

I noticed on my blacksmith that the numbers fluctuate as I scroll through the levels.

Weapon damage amounts increase as Character Experience Levels increase. A PC which is at the Experience Level that is required to equip a specific weapon has acquired enough experience necessary to use it in combat. As the PC's Experience Level increases subsequently, that also increases the amount of damage which they can do with the weapon (but the increases are not indefinite; see the next reply to your next comment below).

However, the Experience Level for the weapon's class (as shown on a character's data sheet for the weapon's Skill category and its abilities and passives) is the measure of experience which a PC has acquired by using its weapon(s) in combat. Thus, it is also used in the calculation of the damage that a weapon inflicts when the weapon is used by a specific Player Character.

Hluill wrote: »

I noticed that they also change on the character as it levels.

Each weapon that is made from a specific metal or type of wood has a range of Experience Levels for which it is expected to be used (for example, from Level 10 to Level 25). As stated above, its Damage Amount increases as the Experience Level increases. A PC must be either at the lowest Experience Level in the range, or at a higher Level than the lowest in the range, in order to be able to equip and use a weapon made from the corresponding metal or type of wood.

When a PC's Experience Level becomes higher than the highest Experience Level in the range for the weapon, its Damage Amount no longer increases. So, a Level 50 character cannot do any more damage with a low-level weapon than a lower-level PC that currently has the highest Experience Level for that weapon can do.

Hluill wrote: »

Frustratingly, they both start decreasing somewhere in the thirties.

Both? What starts decreasing "somewhere in the thirties"? I do not understand your statement.

Hluill wrote: »

Now the OP brings up the question about what do they actually mean. Do they modify skills or mouse attacks, or both? Or neither?

"They" in the OP refers to the number which is the Damage Amount for a spell or a weapon (shown on their tooltips). I believe that the attack type (light or heavy) modifies the Damage Amount (not vice-versa). Or perhaps the attack type increases the Spell Damage or the Weapon Damage of the PC that is added to the other damage which the enemy NPC/PC receives from the weapon.

Oh you're looking for the equations for how damage is calculated?

Well it's different for every ability, there are general equations.

I do believe someone posted that they have each equation for each ability and it maybe somewhere on the net.

The 1380 value of a gold weapon means something different to every ability.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209938/pts-2-3-x-sorcerer-arithmagic/p1

Have you been there?

Shadowshire wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

So, now I am confused too. What do those numbers mean?

On the face of it, each weapon type is assigned a numerical Damage Amount to use, first, to compare the damage which can be inflicted with very different weapons, such as axes, maces, swords, bows, and staves, respectively.

But the Damage Amount is also used in calculating the damage which an enemy PC/NPC receives when that weapon hits them. Other factors also affect the result of the calculation. For example, whether the attack is a light one (faster, less force applied), or a heavy one (slower, more force applied) makes a difference in the amount of damage that the enemy receives.

Hluill wrote: »

I noticed on my blacksmith that the numbers fluctuate as I scroll through the levels.

Weapon damage amounts increase as Character Experience Levels increase. A PC which is at the Experience Level that is required to equip a specific weapon has acquired enough experience necessary to use it in combat. As the PC's Experience Level increases subsequently, that also increases the amount of damage which they can do with the weapon (but the increases are not indefinite; see the next reply to your next comment below).

However, the Experience Level for the weapon's class (as shown on a character's data sheet for the weapon's Skill category and its abilities and passives) is the measure of experience which a PC has acquired by using its weapon(s) in combat. Thus, it is also used in the calculation of the damage that a weapon inflicts when the weapon is used by a specific Player Character.

Hluill wrote: »

I noticed that they also change on the character as it levels.

Each weapon that is made from a specific metal or type of wood has a range of Experience Levels for which it is expected to be used (for example, from Level 10 to Level 25). As stated above, its Damage Amount increases as the Experience Level increases. A PC must be either at the lowest Experience Level in the range, or at a higher Level than the lowest in the range, in order to be able to equip and use a weapon made from the corresponding metal or type of wood.

When a PC's Experience Level becomes higher than the highest Experience Level in the range for the weapon, its Damage Amount no longer increases. So, a Level 50 character cannot do any more damage with a low-level weapon than a lower-level PC that currently has the highest Experience Level for that weapon can do.

Hluill wrote: »

Frustratingly, they both start decreasing somewhere in the thirties.

Both? What starts decreasing "somewhere in the thirties"? I do not understand your statement.

Hluill wrote: »

Now the OP brings up the question about what do they actually mean. Do they modify skills or mouse attacks, or both? Or neither?

"They" in the OP refers to the number which is the Damage Amount for a spell or a weapon (shown on their tooltips). I believe that the attack type (light or heavy) modifies the Damage Amount (not vice-versa). Or perhaps the attack type increases the Spell Damage or the Weapon Damage of the PC that is added to the other damage which the enemy NPC/PC receives from the weapon.

Thanks for the response.

To clarify my statement that weapon damage and character damage start decreasing in the late thirties, early forties. When I scroll through weapon levels on my blacksmith and as my character leveled, even when geared to level, those numbers decreased, though not by much. My specific memory is not exact but a thirtieth-level weapon does more damage than a fortieth-level weapon, maybe a hundred points or so. And I definitely noticed the drop in damage described in the character window and in combat as my character adventured through her forties, even with regular gear updates. Now that she is earning Champion Points her damage has stabilized, which is strange because her gear is higher quality and includes better set bonuses.

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Light and Heavy Attacks are considered "abilities" by the game just like almost everything else (Active Skills, passives, buffs, etc...). The base damage done by a LA/HA can be estimated and depends on the characters Magicka/Stamina and Weapon/Spell damage. For example a Heavy Attack from an Inferno Staff is:

Flame HA = 0.0409739 Magicka + 1.63589 SpellDamage - 0.239583

Note that SpellDamage here is the character's overall spell damage as shown in the stat window and not the damage on the weapon itself. The actual weapon damage value contributes to the overall character's Spell and Weapon Damage stat.

About tooltips....LA/HA do actually have tooltips but you can't see them normally. You can manually see them with the chat command (for the Flame HA):

/script d(GetAbilityDescription(15383))

You can find all the skill coefficients at http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php and our build editor has the detailed calculations for LA/HA built into it at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor. It has been partially updated for Morrowind (still mining item data) but we haven't yet verified the complete LA/HA calculations just yet.

Regarding Light Attack and Heavy Attacks as "abilities" seems to be a very odd way of calculating the damage inflicted by an attack with a weapon, shield, or fist(s). It is simple, yes, but the devil is in the details as to how the values for Spell Damage and for Physical Damage, respectively, are calculated. (For what it is worth, in The World of Warcraft design, all character "abilities" have Spell IDs, and every ability used and every spell cast is identified as a "spell".)

@Reorx_Holybeard : Thank-you very much for your explanations and the references on UESP. I've been looking for that for a long time. Unfortunately, the only player who has offered advice only said that explanations of TESO combat system are to be found on Reddit and/or Rereddit.

That is, if you can find anything on the Reddit family of websites at all, amidst the tangled clutter in the UI, including advertising. In my experience, searching Reddit for anything is much more likely than not to become a waste of time and effort. The fact that someone doesn't find something doesn't mean that it isn't there. But the only proof that is is there is finding it.

Thanks again -- TTYL sometime, I hope.

Hluill wrote: »

....

Thanks for the response.

To clarify my statement that weapon damage and character damage start decreasing in the late thirties, early forties. When I scroll through weapon levels on my blacksmith and as my character leveled, even when geared to level, those numbers decreased, though not by much. My specific memory is not exact but a thirtieth-level weapon does more damage than a fortieth-level weapon, maybe a hundred points or so. And I definitely noticed the drop in damage described in the character window and in combat as my character adventured through her forties, even with regular gear updates. Now that she is earning Champion Points her damage has stabilized, which is strange because her gear is higher quality and includes better set bonuses.

Okay, then, I will see whether I can investigate that. Frankly, from your description, it seems to be a flaw ("bug") in the host software. My guess is that it was introduced some time after I leveled each of my two main characters to Level 50, then on to Veteran Rank 16. Shortly afterward, the Veteran Ranks were eliminated, and only the Champion Point "levels" remain.

My most recent "leveling" of a couple of alts was done during "holiday" periods when their XP gains were increased. So I only crafted armor for each one perhaps three or four times before they reached Level 50. I don't recall noticing the decreases that you describe, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

FWIW, as I have done the research for weapon and armor traits with my alts (in Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Woodworking, respectively), I discovered that no Crafting Writs were issued at Rank 6 of the primary crafting passive for each of those three skill lines. So the primary crafting passive rank must advance from Rank 5 to Rank 6, then to Rank 7. That anomaly most likely originated with One Tamriel, which wrecked most of the foundation of crafting and foraging for crafting materials. I do not know whether the anomaly, which I reported to ZOS, remains in the game since the advent of version 3.0 Morrowind. No doubt that is was found and reported long before the Homestead update, too.