End Game Content NEEDS a Change in it's Dificulty

ArchMikem · May 2017

I'm not wanting a straight Nerf, I know full well everyone would just mock me and tell me to L2P and Git Gud. But the things that make the content difficult blatantly needs a change, ESPECIALLY now that ZOS has for some reason decided they needed to make it even harder to play this game by handicapping our Survivability.

Personally, (and I'm certain I'm not alone in this) I've completely had it with End Game Content. The DLC Dungeons, Trials, God Damned mother....Maelstrom. Even though I've been complaining about Maelstrom since the dawn of time, I'm not a stranger to it. I've been in there, I've done a few runs on Normal, I've experienced the Mechanics, and now I tried Vet. I took my BEST PvE MagSorc character in there and was at first doing pretty well. Until Stages Five and Seven. I burned through all 15 of my Vitality lives in those but through multiple tries I persevered through and got to the Theater. A few more deaths learning the Mechanics and finally Solkyn. That Horker wiped me DOZENS of times, no matter what I tried, what skills I used, going back to the guy so I can repair. I'm not saying I want a Nerf, but there's too many Mechanics! There's too many damage sources all around, all with the capability to one shot. My resources are drained by the time I even get up top for the first crystal, I can't run from the mobs waiting for my regen since the Mobs are like they're in Nascar, and I even got SO CLOSE to actually finishing him only once. 8,000 health. That's all he had left as I was desperately trying to shield against four different sources of high damage attacks but wiped before I could cast that last needed Fury. After that I never even got him under 60% again through another dozen wipes.

I'm just done, this is complete bull, I don't understand why you people actually find joy in this. Games are supposed to have replayability but this kind of content makes me NEVER want to try it again. So I'm just calling it finished now. A 30 or so death run with a score of 350,000. I was so damn close to my first Maelstrom weapon.

You're continuing to make the new Content harder while at the same time making it more difficult for our Characters to survive. I didn't buy ESO so I could be a Min/Maxer wearing Gold Trial Gear.

I was going to take a pic of one of my death screens and superimpose a giant %$#& YOU on it, but I figured that might be a bit much.

idk · May 2017

Our DPS has not changed much due to the heavy sustain nerfs. Most groups should be able to clear the same content they were clearing before the changes. The changes are more about who will enjoy the new slower style combat system.

Shad0wfire99 · May 2017

I disagree. IMO, there aren't enough mechanics in the game. Outside of vMoL, and apparently now vHoF, most end-game content is a pure dps race. More mechanics, less mountains of health, please.

theamazingx · May 2017

Hard content is supposed to be hard.

Most people don't complete vma in one sitting the first time. It will often be over the course of a week. You might not know this, but the quest saves your place, so you can keep coming back. Practice is what brings runs down from 1 week to 40 minutes, not gold gear. Of course, some level of readiness is required, so if you want any kind of legitimate feedback you'll have to say what gear you do have available to you. Frankly, it doesn't take a whole lot to burn that last boss before any adds give you trouble, so your rotation might be the problem.

Biro123 · May 2017

idk, man.

I don't do any endgame PVE. I'm a PVPer so looking from the outside in, I see the new vet trials being completed within hours of going live. Not days, Hours. Most people were still downloading the updates!

Yes there are also people saying they are too hard. I think at the end of the day, there has to be some content that is challenging for the best PVE groups out there. They won't be interested in anything that's too easy. But for that to be possible, it kind of means that the difficult content is not doable by the average groups.

I think sometimes people have to accept that some content wasn't aimed at them and move on. I mean there's the 'normal' version so you can experience the actual content - so I have to ask, 'what is the purpose/motivation for wanting to do the vet content'? If its just for gear, then perhaps the same stuff should drop from normal - then doing Vet is purely for the sense of achievement/skins/dyes etc.. ?

D0ntevenL1ft · May 2017

VMA is easy and all mechanic based. Round 9 is one of the funnest things to do in this game because it actually takes skill.

I went from 100 deaths in my first VMA completion about 2-3 weeks ago to my first flawless last week. There is a learning curve yes but it's certainly not impossible.

Nobody goes in and does a flawless their first time, or their fifth but keep at it and it happens. Do not nerf.

StrawberryKitsune · May 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

idk, man.

I don't do any endgame PVE. I'm a PVPer so looking from the outside in, I see the new vet trials being completed within hours of going live. Not days, Hours. Most people were still downloading the updates!

Yes there are also people saying they are too hard. I think at the end of the day, there has to be some content that is challenging for the best PVE groups out there. They won't be interested in anything that's too easy. But for that to be possible, it kind of means that the difficult content is not doable by the average groups.

I think sometimes people have to accept that some content wasn't aimed at them and move on. I mean there's the 'normal' version so you can experience the actual content - so I have to ask, 'what is the purpose/motivation for wanting to do the vet content'? If its just for gear, then perhaps the same stuff should drop from normal - then doing Vet is purely for the sense of achievement/skins/dyes etc.. ?

I agree with your points and I mainly PvE. I'm of the opinion that the weapons should not be locked behind the Vet difficulty even if you got a white/green weapon you had to improve yourself instead of purple. I think that would solve a lot of issues surrounding the quite frankly astounding leap from normal MA to VMA.

Skins/achievements thats fine to lock behind the Vet wall but weapons that are often BiS for theory crafted builds, that's not ok but its just my humble opinion.

I see the reward factor in having the weapons and titles behind the Vet wall for end gamers but it broadens the gap between top players and the majority of the player base and makes people feel excluded from a game that they paid just as much money for. So I can see both sides of the argument really and unfortunately you can't please everyone.

pattyLtd · May 2017

Ah i see the frustration that is called VMA here.
You can do it OP if you are this close already it's just a matter of persistence

.

seedubsrun · May 2017

I remember my first attempt at a full Vet Maelstrom completion. I had my magsorc too and was determined to finally do it. I don't get a ton of time to play so over the course of 2 or 3 hours a week for 2 months I slowly worked my way through. I got stuck on 5 for the longest time to the point where I was convinced it was impossible and video showing otherwise was some Russian conspiracy. I finally made it to 9 and spent countless hours making sure I could even get to the crystals consistently, then it was completing them, then finally finishing the thing. I remember my heart pounding the first time I won. I wanted to run down the street waving my t-shirt and screaming. Then the second time I ran it I beat the whole thing in 2 hours. Now after 20 runs or so I can beat it in an hour or less and have my trusty sharpened inferno Maelstrom staff.
All I can say is keep at it. It's some of the hardest content I've ever done and it's punishing and maddeningly frustrating. I promise you though that once you beat it the first time, the second will be exponentially faster and easier and will continue this way until Maelstrom is a breeze and rather enjoyable. Since we're both sorcs if you need any tips or anything feel free to message me. You'll get there.

Feanor · May 2017

It's fine. Really. vMA especially. Fix RNG and all is golden.

idk · May 2017

StrawberryKitsune wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

idk, man.

I don't do any endgame PVE. I'm a PVPer so looking from the outside in, I see the new vet trials being completed within hours of going live. Not days, Hours. Most people were still downloading the updates!

Yes there are also people saying they are too hard. I think at the end of the day, there has to be some content that is challenging for the best PVE groups out there. They won't be interested in anything that's too easy. But for that to be possible, it kind of means that the difficult content is not doable by the average groups.

I think sometimes people have to accept that some content wasn't aimed at them and move on. I mean there's the 'normal' version so you can experience the actual content - so I have to ask, 'what is the purpose/motivation for wanting to do the vet content'? If its just for gear, then perhaps the same stuff should drop from normal - then doing Vet is purely for the sense of achievement/skins/dyes etc.. ?

I agree with your points and I mainly PvE. I'm of the opinion that the weapons should not be locked behind the Vet difficulty even if you got a white/green weapon you had to improve yourself instead of purple. I think that would solve a lot of issues surrounding the quite frankly astounding leap from normal MA to VMA.

Skins/achievements thats fine to lock behind the Vet wall but weapons that are often BiS for theory crafted builds, that's not ok but its just my humble opinion.

I see the reward factor in having the weapons and titles behind the Vet wall for end gamers but it broadens the gap between top players and the majority of the player base and makes people feel excluded from a game that they paid just as much money for. So I can see both sides of the argument really and unfortunately you can't please everyone.

nMA is far to easy. It is a cake walk compared to vet.

The old nDSA that granted Master weapons one level lower would not be worth it other than decon junk since the spell/weapon damage would be to low for a CP150 weapon vs a CP160.

ParaNostram · May 2017

Not all content is meant to be completed by everyone and that is the reality of competitive endgame PvE. This isn't a bad thing necessarily but I understand the frustration.

My advice is to take your time, adjust your playstyle and build to the new changes. When you are finished with this, THEN give reg maelstrom a few practice runs, then start working on vet. Unless you are some PvE wunderkind you will die a lot before you start to "git gud" and there is no shame in this.

I believe in you, just give it time.

kojou · May 2017

I wouldn't complain if they delayed enrage mechanics a little longer and added some restoration phases to some of the more resource intensive fights now that resource management is a new mechanic. Other than that I think things are fine.

As far as VMA round 9 goes... keep at it. You will have an "Aha" moment and it will never stop you again. Don't be afraid to watch videos and ask people who have completed it for advice on what you might be doing wrong.

DjMuscleboy02 · May 2017

ArchMikem wrote: »

You're continuing to make the new Content harder

The new trial was beaten on hard mode on live (yes I know they had practice on PTS, but it's beside the point) in less than 4 hours. This game is anything but too difficult.

seedubsrun wrote: »

Now after 20 runs or so I can beat it in an hour or less and have my trusty sharpened inferno Maelstrom staff.

DPShiro · May 2017

I agree with the title!

But, I want to see an increase in difficulty and mechanics.

There is not many mechanics in end game content, in my opinion, and I hope we see much more like those awesome Shadow of the Hists dungeons!

ArchMikem · May 2017

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

I disagree. IMO, there aren't enough mechanics in the game. Outside of vMoL, and apparently now vHoF, most end-game content is a pure dps race. More mechanics, less mountains of health, please.

I wouldn't be opposed to that. Mechanics themselves are fine but when all of them are harassing you constantly with one shot damage numbers that's when there's a problem.

[snip]

Overworld PvE is easy, I have noticed that, because I have tried my best and I have become a better player while still being able to make threads in a Forum who's sole purpose is to discuss anything and everything ESO related.

But btw, you don't know me, go away and take your pathetic excuse of a passive aggressive insult with you.

[Edit for removed quote]

FlyLionel · May 2017

Theres a reason why 1% of the playerbase has completed VMA, it's endgame. If you beat it you get the best weapons in the game...if the rng is right.

Joy_Division · May 2017

Dozens?

The final boss will kill you hundreds of times before you get past that learning curve.

The content is not hard. It's just unforgiving. There is a difference.

MCBIZZLE300 · May 2017

I have to disagree with this post, I find vet trials probably the most challenging thing and with a good group there aren't many issues. Persistence is key in VMA, i studies alcasts videos for hours and re applied it to my runs, now I'm a flawless conqueror on my mag sorc and have completed it with my stamblade which i found hard. The point I'm trying to make is that its the challenge that we all enjoy, The feeling when you complete VMA for the first time or get a sharpened inferno staff is so rewarding. Having said that, its an RPG you don't have to focus on ''end game'' content if you don't want to, screw what everyone else says.

theamazingx · May 2017

StrawberryKitsune wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

idk, man.

I don't do any endgame PVE. I'm a PVPer so looking from the outside in, I see the new vet trials being completed within hours of going live. Not days, Hours. Most people were still downloading the updates!

Yes there are also people saying they are too hard. I think at the end of the day, there has to be some content that is challenging for the best PVE groups out there. They won't be interested in anything that's too easy. But for that to be possible, it kind of means that the difficult content is not doable by the average groups.

I think sometimes people have to accept that some content wasn't aimed at them and move on. I mean there's the 'normal' version so you can experience the actual content - so I have to ask, 'what is the purpose/motivation for wanting to do the vet content'? If its just for gear, then perhaps the same stuff should drop from normal - then doing Vet is purely for the sense of achievement/skins/dyes etc.. ?

I agree with your points and I mainly PvE. I'm of the opinion that the weapons should not be locked behind the Vet difficulty even if you got a white/green weapon you had to improve yourself instead of purple. I think that would solve a lot of issues surrounding the quite frankly astounding leap from normal MA to VMA.

Skins/achievements thats fine to lock behind the Vet wall but weapons that are often BiS for theory crafted builds, that's not ok but its just my humble opinion.

I see the reward factor in having the weapons and titles behind the Vet wall for end gamers but it broadens the gap between top players and the majority of the player base and makes people feel excluded from a game that they paid just as much money for. So I can see both sides of the argument really and unfortunately you can't please everyone.

If a player doesn't have the situational awareness and experience to complete vMA in crafted gear, that's 90% of the gap between them and higher tier players. That means they won't be able to compete in any environment where that gear improvement will even matter anyway. If you look at the weapons themselves, they're even designed to reward skilled players in particular. DW rewards a tight and structured rotation, staves reward players who can consistently weave light attacks. Putting the weapons in normal would do absolutely nothing to the existing skillgap.

HuawaSepp · May 2017

I would appreciate dungeons/trials/arenas with random encounters.
Doing VMA ever and ever again isn't that interesting.
Look at Vardenfell, everything is dead if you only breathe. I finished Vardenfell after 1 min. Nothing there what was worth fighting against, just vHoF.

Balamoor · May 2017

Wow....

I am not what you would call a hard core raider, (Well I use to be but been there done that) as a matter of fact I was an advocate for Blizzard to make it's end game raids in WoW more accessible.

End game if anything is too face roll ....and I never use that term, also I love this game (been accused of white knighting it enough.) but trails are a bone nothing more, no serious competitive raider would stay around ESO because the game isn't about that, it is about Questing with your friends, crafting and doing a bit of PVP if you want to get your competition on.

This latest expansion with it's one lonely trial reinforces that, and that's okay. I know some folks puff up their chest and start talking about the Trails like it's an exclusive club, but if you have woke the sleeper or have done Pre BC Naxx, you know that as far vision goes ESO isn't a Raid game, and it's trails aren't competitive, it's just whack a mole step out of the stupid for the cheese.

That wasn't meant to insult ZoS, most of us are glad the raid game isn't the priority.

rhapsodious · May 2017

At the risk of sounding like a meme, this is, at its core, a learn to play issue. And I mean that in the least insulting terms possible. It took me months to run VMA the first time, and probably 200 soul gems. Plus God knows how much in armor repairs. Second time around it took me like 4 hours? Then I was thrilled to get a 300k score. Then 400. Then 500. Now I'm going to go back to trying to get Flawless after I finish saving the world for the twentieth time.

The last boss is one of the more fair ones, in that you're punished for mistakes and rewarded for good play. Are you using the sigils, especially the defense sigil? Even now, I destroy all the crystals, get knocked down, and make a beeline for the defense sigil before anything else. You can pretty much ignore his channel while you clean up the summoner and grab a ghost.

Take it easy up top, you've got a bit of a timer but if you play well he can't kill you. If you can't get 2 crystals down before the second explosion, voluntarily hop down and clean up the Crematorial Guard before heading back up and getting the last crystal at your leisure. It'll reset the DOT and, assuming you can burn the guard, give you a bit of a breather.

Also, destro ult is a godsend and for the love of God use it. Especially for enemies that are kind and decide to stay in one spot for you.

Finally, if you've been at it for an hour and you're making negative progress... come back later with a fresh mind. Frustration leads to mistakes.

LadyNalcarya · May 2017

My resources are drained by the time I even get up top for the first crystal, I can't run from the mobs waiting for my regen since the Mobs are like they're in Nascar, and I even got SO CLOSE to actually finishing him only once. 8,000 health. That's all he had left as I was desperately trying to shield against four different sources of high damage attacks but wiped before I could cast that last needed Fury. After that I never even got him under 60% again through another dozen wipes.

Last Fury? I assume you're a sorc, OP?
Then have you tried a heavy attack build? You shouldnt really have any magicka issues with it and should be able to recast shields when needed. Also, crematorial guardians are vulnerable to lightning so you have an advantage on a magsorc.
And it doesnt need a nerf imo... Last time I did it, I just wanted a title on my new char, so I just took some random gear from my bank and went in with bare bones build and no undaunted.. Still only died once or twice, and it was 100% due to ignoring mechanics and being too cocky. Its also worth mentioning that I'm a healer so my dps is never top notch... And the gear wasnt 100% optimized.

You're continuing to make the new Content harder while at the same time making it more difficult for our Characters to survive. I didn't buy ESO so I could be a Min/Maxer wearing Gold Trial Gear.

Theyre not "continuing to make new content harder" actually. Multiple groups already cleared vet Halls of Fabrication on hardmode, while vet Maw of Lorkhaj hm clear took months.

fericirea · May 2017

Not every piece of content is or ought to be accessible to the lowest denominator. Some appeal to the lowest, some appeal to the top 50%, some the top 25%, some the top 5-10%.

Maelstrom is probably top 10-25%.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

They've put themselves in a situation that other games struggle to handle.

"How do you create content for your playerbase"

Personally I believe some of the content is too hard BUT I'm actually saying it's too hard for a lot of people but not that it should be changed.

IF it were me, when they made their One Tamriel change....again IF it were me...

*Champion points would not exist as when the veteran system was removed. Considering Morrowind, I personally believe they instead should've kept the champion passives but that progression should align like armor or weapon skill lines in a 1-50 level progression.

More thought into the champion passives, the skill points should be used to activite and morph those passives.

**This means the skill lines added with DLC should exist as passives and not require skill points but still require story progression in addition to gameplay impacts that lead to progression.

One Tamriel instead, would've done this

-Overworld difficulty would've been increased by AI including Dolmens and scaling should work in a level 1-99 existence. That being character level

Now this requires a different scaling off 1-99 but essentially it's just 1-CP490 and as they raised the CP, this would allow the scaling to raise so today it's CP630 or CP631 ...think level 113 for simplicity and each update raises the scales difficulty instead of worrying about exp gains for CP catch up

Further:

-Dungeons and Trials would not have a normal and Vet mode. They would have a level set option. So this means it's the same encounter so everyone can do it BUT the rewards and difficulty can be set or changed.
1. Maybe level 49, 99, 133-max
2. ....Without champion passives enabled

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

Lemme guess, in vMA you're still of the idea that DPS=Win. DON'T worry too much about how much dps you're doing. Instead of focusing on full damage, grab some sets that increase your survivability. Instead of a potion of spell damage, use a potion of lingering health. Use the bloody troll king set for that bonus hp regen, combine the two and when you shield you'll be topped off pretty damned well.

You don't have to destroy all three crystals in one go while you're up on the 2nd platform, you can always jump down after topping up resources by heavy attacking on one crystal, stun the clannfear with an ability, and then focus on surviving the onslaught of the fire breath from that daedroth. use streak to get away when he's breathing it, and dps him down while he's basic attacking.

If the problem you have after that stage is always dying to the daedroth once the boss is back on the ground, well, if you miss grabbing a golden ghost you're pretty much dead. The ghost spawns are staggered such that you get three prior to the daedroth spawn.

I hate using this phrase, but its a L2P issue. Don't just blindly copy builds you see people using and expect them to work for you, you gotta learn yourself what works for you. Ask around on the forum for tips and advice, don't just say it's too bloody hard.

The initial rewards you get for completing vMA are still shite though for players who've just completed this grueling task. Least give 'em training weapon of their choice so they can experiment with the effects.

Edit: and champ points universally *** everything up when it comes to balancing things. Also, only 30 deaths? nice! I had over 100 on my first run, which was also on my stamblade. 2nd run had less than 15.

LiquidPony · May 2017

IMO ... if you got through round 5 of Maelstrom, you are more than capable of completing the whole thing.

Stage 9 is far easier than stage 5. You'll get it, it just takes practice ... a lot of practice.

I didn't buy ESO so I could be a Min/Maxer wearing Gold Trial Gear.

So what do you care about the difficulty of end-game content, then?

lagrue · May 2017

ParaNostram wrote: »

competitive endgame PvE

And this is why I avoid most endgame content. PVE isn't supposed to be a competition. It's supposed to be players bashing computers. Leaderboards and all that are what ruins it! Half of us don't care about that...

theher0not · May 2017

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

I disagree. IMO, there aren't enough mechanics in the game. Outside of vMoL, and apparently now vHoF, most end-game content is a pure dps race. More mechanics, less mountains of health, please.

I agree. I love fights that focus more on mechanics than pure DPS.

tinythinker · May 2017

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

I disagree. IMO, there aren't enough mechanics in the game. Outside of vMoL, and apparently now vHoF, most end-game content is a pure dps race. More mechanics, less mountains of health, please.

Yeah that's something I really like in other Morphs, especially ffxiv. Of course the slightly slower speed of combat and the needs for positioning make some types of mechanics easier to implement but there are other mechanics that would work better on ESO and faster/more fluid combat.