GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Oh come on.

Its deals so much dmg in pve comapred to everything else, it's clear it needed to be nerfed so sorc's can be brought back in line with other dps.

The amount of slots it uses is irrelevant

The amount of slots Familiar uses is not irrelevant. If you slot Familiar on your bar then you are losing the ability to slot an extra damage skill. It's a 2 for 1 trade.

So if radiant needs to be slotted on all 10 slots, its damage can be multiplied by 10?

The difference is the following: toggles are not restricted by time, non-toggles have a duration. You can argue all day long..it still stands: sorc has 2 DoTs (scamp + liquid lightning) which are way stronger than any other class dot, only wall of elements is on par with it. (Imo WoE should be nerfed bc its too strong...but that's another thing)

scamp-pulse ticks every 2 secodns, just like vamps bane/reflective light or destructive reach. IIrc most dots tick every 2 seconds and just a few every second...

edit: i don't want it to be nerfed into uselessnes...but it's overperforming and should be adjusted. or do you want to say, that even a slight nerf makes the scamp useless??

It doesn't matter how many slots it takes in this context because you(assuming you're going after highest dps) don't slot as many skills as possible or as many toggle or non toggle skills as possible. You slot skills that, in combination, make you most effective. Non pet slots sometimes slot Bound Armor on both bars for example because it provides a nice huge boost, etc(but they're way outperformed by pet sorcs still). There are no skills in the game that you could put on your bar instead of Familiar and get a damage output anywhere near what Familiar gives you(even keeping in mind you could put 2 skills there, yes). There are no skills that other classes can put on their bar to get comparable damage either.

Transairion wrote: »

I also wish best magsorc setup possible wasn't Necro+both pets+lightning heavies for spammable in between dots

You actually think the best Pet MagSorc build has Twilight anywhere near it? Matriarch is a healing morph, and the "DPS" morph Tormentor has an active that doesn't even do anything until the target loses half their health... when it actually works, it just buffs the Twilight's normal weak attacks. I haven't seen it on a single one of these "Pet Sorc Meta" builds.

I mean, I'm just speechless. Twilight OP now too?

She's not op on her own (btw iirc she actually does more damage to enemy *above* 50%, not below, but I might be mixing it up because I personally use the healing morph) but she actually has a pretty nice synergy with full heavy attack pet build, from my understanding(haven't played it myself because I prefer more active rotations). Just pets and dots, and heavies for spammable. I've seen some pretty amazing results with that yes. But I think there Twilight is more of "I have free slots so why not" addition, the core of it is still Familiar.
Tl;dr - Twilight is fine, Familiar is not.

Also I'm really hoping they don't nerf Familiar specifically and sorcs in general into uselessness. I agree that'd be sad, but some...tuning is obviously needed.

No wonder why ZoS doesn't listen to us.

Many sorcerers are basically saying it's justifiable that they are OP in PvE because their pets take up more than 1 slot.

It doesn't matter how many slots it takes in this context because you(assuming you're going after highest dps) don't slot as many skills as possible or as many toggle or non toggle skills as possible. You slot skills that, in combination, make you most effective.

DPS slot whatever DPS skills they can fit on their bars and rotate through without running dry: it's the entire reason the Overload bar is considered valuable (and used to be called OP and demanded to be nerf "cuz unfair"), because of more slots to place DOT skills, self-heals, etc that non-Overload build might have to pick and choose due to lack of space.

I mean put it this way, if number of skill slots have no value there we wouldn't have a backbar to begin with.

She's not op on her own (btw iirc she actually does more damage to enemy *above* 50%, not below, but I might be mixing it up because I personally use the healing morph) but she actually has a pretty nice synergy with full heavy attack pet build, from my understanding(haven't played it myself because I prefer more active rotations). Just pets and dots, and heavies for spammable. I've seen some pretty amazing results with that yes. But I think there Twilight is more of "I have free slots so why not" addition, the core of it is still Familiar.
Tl;dr - Twilight is fine, Familiar is not.

Twilight Tormentor is the opposite of fine: for half of any given fight it has no active ability because the target isn't within the HP threshold, and when it is at that threshold only it's slow basic attack is buffed (meaning it only gets off several attacks during the duration).. At least half the time Tormentor is active, it's literally doing the same DPS Twilight Matriach does (same base damage, same scaling) which isn't all that much: in fact, it only does higher DPS at all when within the limited HP threshold and magicka is spent to buff it.

Tormentor is an embarrassment of an morph, especially since it's supposed to be the DPS one. I'm going to need to ask for some evidence of "amazing results", since every second it's alive and not using the active ability it literally is doing the same as a Matriach is. I can't even justify using it and I'm like the biggest summon/combat pet fanboy ESO has.

As far as familiar goes, we're already aware right now it's overperforming. Pre-bugfix it was still beneath anyone's notice (along with every other combat pet), so I wouldn't say it needs to be gutted either.

Doesn't this pretty much end the discussion right there? Daedric Summoning has 3 abilities that have to be double-slotted. But Sorcerers are also the only class that gets a third bar (Overload), which more than compensates for double-slotting?

So Sorcs that want to use pets should have to be forced to use Overload (which has been bludgeoned with so many nerfs it's barely an Ultimate anymore) just to have the same kind of ability variety that every other class does? Notably you also don't get the Overload bar without enough Ult to use Overload too, so it's not 100% uptime.

Just saying, without Overload a Daedric Summoning Sorc has 4 slots (out of 10 total!!) that aren't toggles. If you're running pets you should 100% be running Daedric Prey, so now you're down to 3 slots left if you bar swap. Ward applies to pets and keeps them alive outside super easy content so now you've got 2 slots left.

For my "Summon All the Things" build I just couldn't be bothered, so my frontbar and backbar are identical and I just never barswap. When most of the skills are going to be the same anyway, why worry about swapping? Hasn't stopped me from doing several Vet Trials and all the Vet Dungeons, VMA etc.

Also just purely as theoretical exercise, imagine pets not needing to be double-slotted? Just...picture that and what it would mean. But at the same time double-slotting also can't be used to justify pets overperforming. Because by that logic Bound Armor could get +100% damage increase to heavy attacks, but that's OK because it has to be double-slotted? We have to be reasonable. It's a choice, you either slot an ability that requires double-slotting, or you don't. It's a judgment call. You judge whether giving up the slot makes it worth it. But it doesn't automatically mean double-slotted ability should be stupidly strong (as Familar is now).

Here's the thing though... this goes both ways: since launch players have used double slotting as justification for why Sorc Summons are "sh*t tier" and the whole skillline should be replaced. Nobody wants to talk about them, or buff them or even look at them. This current Scamp Meta is the first time Sorc Summons actually gained some acceptance... why? Cause a particular setup empowering Scamp made the Scamp able to do some broken OP DPS, which is apparently enough to ignore all the downsides.

Scamp is being nerfed, we already have dev confirmation and it's literally days away now. But Sorc Pets shouldn't go back to "oh no double slotted, sh*t tier!" again as a whole either. The Summons have downsides, and will never be meta (or even popular) unless their upsides are superior... vastly superior, if this ordeal has proven anything.

The Scamp is the highest DPS pet a Sorc has (Tormentor fails as a DPS morph, Antronach got nerfed a few times early in ESO's life and never recovered), toning it down so it isn't meta is one thing: destroying it's DPS completely so that's it ends up as worse off than pre-bugfix is a whole other story and a complete balance failure.

Its not about pet, not even crystal frags. Liquid lightning is a problem here.