No Adjustments For Lightning Heavy Attacks?

Nifty2g · May 2017

From ESO Live at 08m43s
Specifically the bow and the destruction staff they had really large charge times which we got a lot of feedback and we agree with that playing internally it felt slower for the pace of combat that we wanted

Increased the damage of Light Attacks by 15%.
Decreased the damage of Heavy Attacks by 15%.
Increased the resources restored by fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 30%.
Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Bow Heavy Attacks by 10%.
Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Flame and Frost Heavy Attacks by 12.5%.

Okay, so first up ignore the damage that a Lightning Staff can do, I agree it should be adjusted if this change touches it.

But what is being communicated to us from the developers based on the combat that they are aiming for is not being delivered to us. Destruction Staff was acknowledged to have larger charge times and they had agreed with the feedback, but Lightning Staff did not get a charge to this, why? ZOS know from the data and the videos around that players are using Lightning Staves as their main bar and went ahead and ignored to adjust them. It puts players who use it as their main bar (which is a large portion at this point) at a slower pace, you specifically said you are aiming for a faster combat pace.

Could we please get some clarification on what is going on here? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Thanks, and I hope you adjust the whole tree as said.

ManwithBeard9 · May 2017

Lightning staves are a channel attack right? Maybe that's their excuse?

DPShiro · May 2017

Lightning should get the same changes.

Draqone · May 2017

Honestly I am pretty happy that Lightning didn't get those changes. Their DPS was already way too high and they are AoE as well!

Nifty2g · May 2017

Draqone wrote: »

Honestly I am pretty happy that Lightning didn't get those changes. Their DPS was already way too high and they are AoE as well!

That's not the point. I already said it should be adjusted.

This change is not consistent at all.

Sugaroverdose · May 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

From ESO Live at 08m43s
Specifically the bow and the destruction staff they had really large charge times which we got a lot of feedback and we agree with that playing internally it felt slower for the pace of combat that we wanted

Increased the damage of Light Attacks by 15%.
Decreased the damage of Heavy Attacks by 15%.
Increased the resources restored by fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 30%.
Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Bow Heavy Attacks by 10%.
Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Flame and Frost Heavy Attacks by 12.5%.

Okay, so first up ignore the damage that a Lightning Staff can do, I agree it should be adjusted if this change touches it.

But what is being communicated to us from the developers based on the combat that they are aiming for is not being delivered to us. Destruction Staff was acknowledged to have larger charge times and they had agreed with the feedback, but Lightning Staff did not get a charge to this, why? ZOS know from the data and the videos around that players are using Lightning Staves as their main bar and went ahead and ignored to adjust them. It puts players who use it as their main bar (which is a large portion at this point) at a slower pace, you specifically said you are aiming for a faster combat pace.

Could we please get some clarification on what is going on here? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Thanks, and I hope you adjust the whole tree as said.

Because they does benefit from longer HA channel maybe?

ZOS also didn't reduced lightning staff damage per tick when reworked "Ancient Knowledge" passive (increased HA charge speed has been removed), while they did add damage to lightning staff to bring it to the line with frost and inferno staff dps it was in TG if i remember it right, so you did run with bigger DPS HA than flame/frost staff on Live, and maybe with the same DPS per HA with flame/frost on PTS

DRXHarbinger · May 2017

It's possibly because if you get interrupting whilst casting a lit staff attack etc you've done more damage, puts off balance, AOE etc than a flame staff and being interrupted. And possibly because everyone uses Lit staves for HA builds over infernos ( this is zos trying to build diversity)

Pretty certain there is some stupid reasoning behind it, Guess my Magdk is dropping the lit staff now in favor of going HA inferno build, Or possibly Lit staves don't get the damage reduction and we are all wrong???

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

Agree that all the changes should be consistent. Let's not forget that Resto heavies were also not adjusted as well. ZoS needs to make a comment on why the heavy attack stave changes were not applied to Lightning and Restoration staves.

EDIT: I know Restoration staves were not discussed, but, honestly, shouldn't ALL stave heavy attack speeds be adjusted? Leaving two very important ones out. /:

Gilliamtherogue · May 2017

In the discussion on ESO Live, they specifically stated Bows and Destruction Staves would be sped up in order to make them feel more in line with Melee Weapon charge times, to keep the pace of combat up to speed. While I personally think Lightning Staves are in a good spot and shouldn't be adjusted, the way this statement was delivered was extremely ambiguous, like many other things mentioned in ESO Live.

Communication is one of the hardest things to maintain when dealing with large systems, but also one of the most important aspects; especially for a business. Many statements in ESO Live leave players either ecstatic or crushed, because there's too many vague statements left up for debate.

ZoS has taken leaps and bounds when it comes to improving communication over the past year, but let's be real; it's pretty easy to spot improvements when your previous comparison was almost non existent. I understand ESO Live is not a scripted event, but as a team of Devs with a large product, you're going to be up for a lot of scrutiny. Enabling this targeting by being vague or misspeaking is one of the most punishing experiences you can deal from a business and a respect view point. There's a lot of room to improve on, and this situation highlights that quite nicely.

It would be nice to at least hear a response to this from the team, commenting on why they didn't include Lightning Staves to these changes. As I said before, I personally didn't expect them to be touched, but there are many others who are left confused and feel betrayed.

Reverb · May 2017

I admire you @Nifty2g for continuing to raise the points that you do. For questioning, and sometimes criticizing, dev decisions using reason and facts.

To support your efforts, I will check my own snark and negativity towards the Zeni combat team.

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f7146af4931f4c8e52483e636e8c6f22_preach-meme-oitnb-memesuper-oitnb-preach-meme_500-360.jpeg

Kas · May 2017

from a pvp perspective, it's good that knight slayer + ltng/resto wasn't buffed, i guess. these two cannot be dodged. especially in face of miat's add-on, this is an extremely important detail.

from a pve perspective, i think i'll just incorporate backbar heavy attacks. makes buff timers a bit harder to keep up with, but that sounds very doable.

I don't think many pve DDs run double ltng or ltgn/resto

STEVIL · May 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

Draqone wrote: »

Honestly I am pretty happy that Lightning didn't get those changes. Their DPS was already way too high and they are AoE as well!

That's not the point. I already said it should be adjusted.

This change is not consistent at all.

or is it?

lightning is a channel like resto.
resto did not get adjusted in channel time.
fire and ice are spurts... they got adjusted in heavy time.

Nifty2g · May 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Draqone wrote: »

Honestly I am pretty happy that Lightning didn't get those changes. Their DPS was already way too high and they are AoE as well!

That's not the point. I already said it should be adjusted.

This change is not consistent at all.

or is it?

lightning is a channel like resto.
resto did not get adjusted in channel time.
fire and ice are spurts... they got adjusted in heavy time.

Restoration Staff has it's own tree
Lightning Staff is part of Destruction Staff, so yes, it's not consistent.

Inig0 · May 2017

While communication is certainly valuable and needs to be conveyed the best possible whenever they can I feel there are some things that we should be able to interpret or at least validate from what actually goes on to what they did (or not do) with resto and lightning heavy attacks.

The main point I would bring to rationalize why they didnt touch lightning heavy attack duration was the fact that it was already so competitive and really the only option in heavy attack builds (at least from what i saw.) So why would they buff all the staves (damage staves) proportion if they all weren't performing proportionally the same.
I would like to see it adjusted though because there is just too much time being taken up with just holding left click.

I dont really have any strong feelings on resto heavy attack. The only thing i would bring up for the sake of talking about it though is wouldnt major mending up-time potentially go up? Iirc the duration it gives is pretty useless though so probably not. Also resto staff gives a mag return increase so that would also increase. I think it would fit nicely (for them to reduce the duration for resto HA) with the changes to sustain for cp and armor.

Khaos_Bane · May 2017

How about Resto staff ?

Nifty2g · May 2017

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

How about Resto staff ?

It wasn't mentioned on ESO Live so I didn't expect a change to come to it.

Akimbro · May 2017

The change is that zos made an oopsy-daisy when they removed the old effect of the Ancient Knowledge passive reducing the time for fully-charged heavy attacks. Now they want to go back on it by doing things ass-backwards as per their usual strategy.

Lughlongarm · May 2017

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

How about Resto staff ?

Resto staff heavy attack, restores crazy amount of magica.

Vaoh · May 2017

It's just.... sad, really. This game keeps letting me down and I honestly feel that ZOS doesn't care anymore. So much great content being hurt by a terrible, newly implemented sustain mess that no one asked for.

Communication is so weak too, sometimes bridging on straight up inaccurate.

ZOS said Destruction staff heavy attacks were given the decrease in cast times yet 1 of the 3 was excluded. The most popular and used of them all too.
Why? To slow down gameplay which no one wants? They specfically mentioned and hyped a nerf to Volatile Familiar DPS as well and how Magicka Sorcerer would finally be brought in line aka no longer BiS for DPS - it never happened.

We only see half of their ESO Live promises come to fruition.

These things would shock me if any other game came out and made changes that were seen negatively by the vast majority of players alongside their misinformation. With ZOS it feels like a normal procedure now recently more than ever.

.... If it weren't for my friends on ESO. My ESO play time has been diminishing by a lot since Homestead.

STEVIL · May 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Draqone wrote: »

Honestly I am pretty happy that Lightning didn't get those changes. Their DPS was already way too high and they are AoE as well!

That's not the point. I already said it should be adjusted.

This change is not consistent at all.

or is it?

lightning is a channel like resto.
resto did not get adjusted in channel time.
fire and ice are spurts... they got adjusted in heavy time.

Restoration Staff has it's own tree
Lightning Staff is part of Destruction Staff, so yes, it's not consistent.

Fire and frost staves are spurts.
Shock and resto staves are channels.
So yrs it is every bit as consistent as the staves were before the chsnge and so.., that keeps it consistent.

danno8 · May 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

How about Resto staff ?

It wasn't mentioned on ESO Live so I didn't expect a change to come to it.

Resto Staff is already faster to complete than any other heavy attack if you measure it. (on live)

On PTS, using a stopwatch, I can complete 9 heavy attacks in 20 seconds on all staves except Lightning. This brings Fire and Frost up to the same speed as Restoration has always been. I suppose you can just use Combat Metrics and Heavy Attack for exactly 1 minute and see how many heavies you get off also.

With Lightning I can only complete 8 in 20 seconds, it is a very clear difference albeit rather small. Not sure why Lightning didn't also get the adjustment. I am guessing because of the splash damage, but like you say, they should just adjust the overall damage down to compensate.

Magıc · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

It's just.... sad, really. This game keeps letting me down and I honestly feel that ZOS doesn't care anymore. So much great content being hurt by a terrible, newly implemented sustain mess that no one asked for.

Communication is so weak too, sometimes bridging on straight up inaccurate.

ZOS said Destruction staff heavy attacks were given the decrease in cast times yet 1 of the 3 was excluded. The most popular and used of them all too.
Why? To slow down gameplay which no one wants? They specfically mentioned and hyped a nerf to Volatile Familiar DPS as well and how Magicka Sorcerer would finally be brought in line aka no longer BiS for DPS - it never happened.

We only see half of their ESO Live promises come to fruition.

These things would shock me if any other game came out and made changes that were seen negatively by the vast majority of players alongside their misinformation. With ZOS it feels like a normal procedure now recently more than ever.

.... If it weren't for my friends on ESO. My ESO play time has been diminishing by a lot since Homestead.

They also specifically mentioned that this wouldn't happen in this PTS cycle. At least take into account the whole statement before complaining lol. @Vaoh

Lexxypwns · May 2017

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Agree that all the changes should be consistent. Let's not forget that Resto heavies were also not adjusted as well. ZoS needs to make a comment on why the heavy attack stave changes were not applied to Lightning and Restoration staves.

EDIT: I know Restoration staves were not discussed, but, honestly, shouldn't ALL stave heavy attack speeds be adjusted? Leaving two very important ones out. /:

I can't speak from a pve perspective, but for Pvp if we increase the magika return on resto heavies and then cut the channel time don't you feel that resto will become far too strong as a sustain tool since you can properly LoS or dodge it?

Alcast · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

It's just.... sad, really. This game keeps letting me down and I honestly feel that ZOS doesn't care anymore. So much great content being hurt by a terrible, newly implemented sustain mess that no one asked for.

Communication is so weak too, sometimes bridging on straight up inaccurate.

ZOS said Destruction staff heavy attacks were given the decrease in cast times yet 1 of the 3 was excluded. The most popular and used of them all too.
Why? To slow down gameplay which no one wants? They specfically mentioned and hyped a nerf to Volatile Familiar DPS as well and how Magicka Sorcerer would finally be brought in line aka no longer BiS for DPS - it never happened.

We only see half of their ESO Live promises come to fruition.

These things would shock me if any other game came out and made changes that were seen negatively by the vast majority of players alongside their misinformation. With ZOS it feels like a normal procedure now recently more than ever.

.... If it weren't for my friends on ESO. My ESO play time has been diminishing by a lot since Homestead.

They did the right thing by not buffing shock heavy attacks, they are already outperforming everything else, so why buff it?

Draqone · May 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

It's just.... sad, really. This game keeps letting me down and I honestly feel that ZOS doesn't care anymore. So much great content being hurt by a terrible, newly implemented sustain mess that no one asked for.

Communication is so weak too, sometimes bridging on straight up inaccurate.

ZOS said Destruction staff heavy attacks were given the decrease in cast times yet 1 of the 3 was excluded. The most popular and used of them all too.
Why? To slow down gameplay which no one wants? They specfically mentioned and hyped a nerf to Volatile Familiar DPS as well and how Magicka Sorcerer would finally be brought in line aka no longer BiS for DPS - it never happened.

We only see half of their ESO Live promises come to fruition.

These things would shock me if any other game came out and made changes that were seen negatively by the vast majority of players alongside their misinformation. With ZOS it feels like a normal procedure now recently more than ever.

.... If it weren't for my friends on ESO. My ESO play time has been diminishing by a lot since Homestead.

They did the right thing by not buffing shock heavy attacks, they are already outperforming everything else, so why buff it?

This, so much this. Somehow this forum is crying about ZoS adding uninteractive gameplay and removing skill from the game but when ZoS slightly nerfs an uninteractive Lightning heavy attack build, those same people are upset.

As far as i know ZoS promised Sorc nerfs on the 22nd, so they still ahve time to deliver. I for one hope that they nerf the pet enough that I don't seem them again since they are a nuisance in group dungeons. They should nerf it to the ground and then rework it with the next major patch, making it useable.

Xvorg · May 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

From ESO Live at 08m43s
Specifically the bow and the destruction staff they had really large charge times which we got a lot of feedback and we agree with that playing internally it felt slower for the pace of combat that we wanted

Increased the damage of Light Attacks by 15%.
Decreased the damage of Heavy Attacks by 15%.
Increased the resources restored by fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 30%.
Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Bow Heavy Attacks by 10%.
Reduced the cast time of fully-charged Flame and Frost Heavy Attacks by 12.5%.

Okay, so first up ignore the damage that a Lightning Staff can do, I agree it should be adjusted if this change touches it.

But what is being communicated to us from the developers based on the combat that they are aiming for is not being delivered to us. Destruction Staff was acknowledged to have larger charge times and they had agreed with the feedback, but Lightning Staff did not get a charge to this, why? ZOS know from the data and the videos around that players are using Lightning Staves as their main bar and went ahead and ignored to adjust them. It puts players who use it as their main bar (which is a large portion at this point) at a slower pace, you specifically said you are aiming for a faster combat pace.

Could we please get some clarification on what is going on here? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Thanks, and I hope you adjust the whole tree as said.

Nifty:

1- Lit full heavy has a AoE component
2- Lit buff AoE dmg an 8%
3- Lit also sets enemy concussed
4- Concussion applies minor vulnerability, giving 8% extra dmg

So, each lit HA staff does up to 16% moar dmg than ice and 8% moar dmg that flame. Reducing the channel is too stronk for a weapon that is strok per se, thn, what's the incentive to go flame instead of lit? It needs a drawback.

(not to mention that 75 points into thaum boost lit HA dmg and by combining it with WoE, it gets another 10% dmg increase on off balance enemies).

Arrchangell · May 2017

I just think it's wrong choice of words on their side, but tbh it's not that hard to believe that the lighting staves didn't change. Even if they didn't do any changes to HA at all, in next update lighting staves would be the best choice, as someone already said even now on homestead they are really popular.

Nifty2g · May 2017

Arrchangell wrote: »

I just think it's wrong choice of words on their side, but tbh it's not that hard to believe that the lighting staves didn't change. Even if they didn't do any changes to HA at all, in next update lighting staves would be the best choice, as someone already said even now on homestead they are really popular.

Not a wrong choice of words, they told us how they want the gameplay to be, and they know full well people make use of lightning staves and they don't change them. I for one am getting tired of the misleading direction ZOS want ESO to be

Vaoh · May 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

It's just.... sad, really. This game keeps letting me down and I honestly feel that ZOS doesn't care anymore. So much great content being hurt by a terrible, newly implemented sustain mess that no one asked for.

Communication is so weak too, sometimes bridging on straight up inaccurate.

ZOS said Destruction staff heavy attacks were given the decrease in cast times yet 1 of the 3 was excluded. The most popular and used of them all too.
Why? To slow down gameplay which no one wants? They specfically mentioned and hyped a nerf to Volatile Familiar DPS as well and how Magicka Sorcerer would finally be brought in line aka no longer BiS for DPS - it never happened.

We only see half of their ESO Live promises come to fruition.

These things would shock me if any other game came out and made changes that were seen negatively by the vast majority of players alongside their misinformation. With ZOS it feels like a normal procedure now recently more than ever.

.... If it weren't for my friends on ESO. My ESO play time has been diminishing by a lot since Homestead.

They did the right thing by not buffing shock heavy attacks, they are already outperforming everything else, so why buff it?

From the last ESO Live I was under the impression that all Destruction Staves would be given a quicker channel time. If ZOS is specifically going to comment on only a few upcoming changes they could at least be accurate too - lightning staves being left out is not a minor factor.

Naturally I was hyped, because this change was meant to help quicken stretches of time where you needed to heavy attack in order to gain resources back. With the overall heavy attack damage decrease, a shorter lightning staff heavy channel time could've been warranted even if it was given a bit more of a damage nerf in particular. Because they're left out, they still feel slow.

This isn't the reason though why I'm just getting fed up lately with ESO.

- No real new content has released since SotH (which was also only two dungeons).
-Console trials are still broken to where legitimate score runs are no longer possible since RNG dictates our amount of dcs. Not to mention playing between 1-10FPS against Rakkhat. ZOS has given this issue a minimum amount of attention (1+ months before acknoledgement at all) with no solution yet offered.
- ZOS will push the release of Morrowind to May 22nd when changes are still being implemented such as (apparently) the prominent Mag Warden buffs that would make it viable in endgame PvE as well as Mag Sorc pet nerfs that need to be done well and tested. Regardless of their effect, these changes will be added to the game and then pushed to console for a long time. If those changes aren't good and PC gets a quick patch, console will not. I cannot understand why they would wait on those changes so long that they would go untested on PTS.

There is so much more as well, but this lightning staff issue just adds to it in letting me down a bit more.

I look forward to Morrowind. However, I am unsure if I look forward to what is being done to the playstyle of PvE DPS, which is all I do right now despite it crashing my game multiple times daily. On the bright side, multiple class specs have been made viable again and the people screaming "Warden P2W" have finally stopped since ZOS did very well in releasing the Warden in a well-balanced state.

ADarklore · May 2017

Let's also not forget that Lightning staff is NOT dodgeable... so already Lightning has much more going for it than both Inferno and Frost staves. So sure, how about we speed up the attack, but then make it dodgeable so that there is more 'equality' between the staves.

Bashev · May 2017

Using the lit heavy attack damage formula by uesp.net it looks like that it is based on the lit light attack. Here is the formula:

HAShockStaff = ((round(0.0182736*Magicka + 0.728039*SpellDamage - 2.50684))*(1 + CP.ShockDamageDone)*(1 + Skill.ShockDamageDone) + Skill2.HADamage)*(1 + Skill.HADamage + Set.HADamage + Skill.ShockDamageDone + Buff.Empower + Skill.DamageDone + Skill.AOEDamageDone) + LAShockStaff * 3

The first 3 ticks are based on the light attack damage and the final tick is another calculation. The question is if the light attack damage is increased then is it possible that lit heavy attack will be top DPS?