The impending changes with Morrowind and my main issue/concern.

MaxwellC · May 2017

As many of you already know there's a ton of changes coming with Morrowind and the latest PTS patch shows what will be in the final introduction of the game. Unfortunately to the crowd that preaches that ZOS listens to feedback I'm extremely split in regards to that notion. I believe that ZOS only listens to feedback as long as it's within their margin of thinking, so if you were to say you wanted a slight increase in X and a large voice within the minority of these forums agrees well then they would listen to it. Now if that feedback is revert changes because of X being a huge issue, well they will not listen and that is proven with the Dragon Knight class and Templar Class (not sure about NBs).
TL;DR at the bottom of this wall of text

My main issue is that this patch is a clear showing that ZOS has no intention of balancing the game the correct way (sounds arrogant but this is my view point and I do not know everything). Instead of stripping every class with what makes them unique i.e. buffs, fluidity in abilities, and clear advantages a class may have over anyone else; Instead they continue to balance the classes around the broken Champion point system, and armor. Each class has a unique feel to it and coming from one who has seen that in the DK when my mate first got me into this game, it's a completely different boring class compared to what it was before. This goes to every class, I'm sure there has been a lot of changes to other classes that make them feel that their class is nothing but a shadow of what it used to be.

The issue with making so many changes and sticking with them because of their adamant view on how the game should evolve is not working, it has not worked for a long time. With these changes even running vMSA has became ever so difficult and when it comes to running certain builds that I run on live, I do not feel it is possible anymore without running out of stamina, especially Magicka (on my Mag DK) so quickly that it makes it near impossible.
Which comes to one more issue, I'm not sure how ZOS views balance in terms of damage output but if they are simply basing it off of what people show on a damage dummy than we have a problem. I'm sorry but a DPS dummy shows how well the persons rotation and damage output but not necessarily their effective rate of engagement (EoE). If I pull off 40k on a DPS dummy, you cannot translate that to how good I can do in a dungeon or vMSA because there are multiple targets and multiple obstacles,mechanics in the way; sure maybe boss fights depending on what that boss mechanics has/have you can surely achieve that number. I say this because when fighting multiple targets some classes lack a strong AoE and with the changes coming now sustain has taken a major nose dive. @MissBizz Said the following and since it isn't mentioning anything under the Non disclosure I will put a copy of it with the thread here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337047/my-experience-with-balance-changes

MissBizz wrote: »

Unfortunately I can't make this as constructive as I would like. This is because I'm pretty sure I fit more into the casual/average playerbase, so I don't even fully understand how all these changes come together to make what I am experiencing.

This is not fun. Having content taken from me (not literally), is not fun.

On live, I can beat VMA "reliably" this means I can sit down, decide to beat VMA, and do it. I will die, it won't be a speed run, but I'll do it, and maybe even have 1 or 2 of my vitality lives left.

I've now spent ~7 hours attempting to beat VMA on PTS. I tried my old faithful sets. I tried what I first beat VMA with, I tried with the sets I got better at VMA with, I tried sets that I recently just switched to and planned on beating VMA with. I brought lich and warlock in my bank with me on the PTS. I just can't do it. This is not because I out-DPS the mechanics on live. I can assure you I do not. I couldn't even hit 20k DPS in a dungeon when I first beat VMA. I now very reliably run out of resources, and in an attempt to get some more sustain (and to use all these light armor sustain sets) I switched to 6 light and a heavy. Nope. As well, that reduces my health from the undaunted passive.

I've seen another post about VMA experience on these forums. It was a vastly different experience from mine. This player is leaps and bounds more skilled than I, and more experienced in VMA.

I guess I just want to point out.... I never had "infinite sustain" by any standard. If the changes are bringing forth players who are extremely good at this game to say "sustain is too hard", think about the players who aren't ridiculously good. Players who aren't at that level already didn't have infinite sustain, they got by, they did things they were proud of. Now, suddenly, they can't do the things they could before. That sucks. Maybe you didn't mean to let damage and sustain get away enough that people like me were beating VMA, maybe I don't pass the standard for VMA you wanted, but I surely don't want to be stuck in this ongoing loop of getting better, thinking I'm better, and then being smacked down to not being able to do content I could previously.

[UPDATE] I'm still stuck in VMA, but here's what I've done.

After trying a whole bunch of sets, what I found so far is the Illambris/Julianos/Lich (Liche back bar for apply DoTs would refill when I swapped back, Julianos front as most of my fighting is done there and I get the extra spell damage) works best. I've pretty much fixed the sustain issues - and can imagine myself beating VMA with this. The problem comes here - I'm still struggling and don't know why. That's the real problem. Is my sustain still not as good as it feels with this? Am I taking more damage with changes to CP trees? Are the little bits of CP I'm cutting back on (since the last bunch of points is ridiculously minimal I generally didn't put 100 points in) all adding up to do this? I don't know. Can I beat VMA with these changes? I'm pretty darn sure I can. I just have no idea how, and it's like learning all over again.

She makes good points and the issue stems from the massive changes done to the game as a whole without actually thinking of what it does to the player base but I also feel that it was done without testing all content currently out and new content. When it comes to balancing a game I don't think it's a good thing to do by changing multiple MAJOR variables within the game and then be so adamant against not going back on some. In my opinion the changes to sustain should have only affected CP first during the initial test phase then slowly move into phase two with the changes to armor, and so on. This would have been the most accurate way to judge the cut off point in terms of sustain changes; When you change the CP system that effectively promoted imbalances along with armor, skill changes (cost wise), and even some races... well it's just bound to go awry.
In regards to vMSA I'm pretty decent I have a score on my Stam DK (Last time I checked it was 550k-580k, haven't played in about three months so forgive me but I know it was in that range) and I felt on PTS just by testing a setup in a random area, that I will need some major sustain changes. I will most likely have to run Vicious Ophidian again but maybe with a stam reduction on one of my jewelry. I believe vMSA is the best way to gauge a classes EoE (Effective rate of Engagement) since you have mobs hurdled at you and its all about you sustaining through the entire battle.

@Joy_Division made a good post and I'll leave the link here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343248/why-i-do-not-find-whats-on-the-pts-fun-and-other-stuff/p1
I feel people should also give this a good read too because it touches on everything even though we may have some differences in thinking. It also points to a very good point, ZOS consistently tells us that these changes are good but we have yet to see them actually do anything with these changes. ZOS in regards to Morrowind changes has not once (based on what I have seen) showed them running any dungeon like CoA, WGT, ICP, or even the shadow of hist dungeons + trials and PvP; Yet we are suppose to take this at face value and agree that changes are good.

I do want to touch on DKs a bit more since this is the only class I have played and will continue to play but I'll keep it short. After three consecutive PTS forum feedback a good portion of changes that the DK community would have liked to see implemented has/have indeed fallen on deaf ears; Instead more nerfs are in bound. I won't be one sided so I will say, yes there was some good changes but these changes only looked at the Magicka DK and not the class as a whole. Sustain is still a major issue and with this PTS the changes to DKs were merely dressing, made to look pretty but does not serve a desire or purpose; in fact I'm almost 100% positive the main complaint to sustain was not any of the abilities listed but others used by Mag DKs and some by both Mag and Stam DKs, such as Igneous shield.

In the PvP aspect my class lost a lot and many others have (especially the templars). I find it in a way sadfunny, I say sadfunny as a one word because its pretty sad and the funny is more like a "Are you serious" funny (I know hard to explain but I'll get to the point); My point is the innately support classes in this game (Dragon Knights, and Templars) lose something that helps them fend off damage so they can survive better. Some people made a point that the DK still has its passive which increases its healing received by 12% when a draconic power ability is active, I hear you on that point but some people like myself do not have a skill to sacrifice when it comes to live gameplay; on the PTS with these changes I will be getting rid of Igneous shield for obvious reasons.

We still have a 12% healing received and this factor is something I do not like because it states "Healing received" as in from another person or source so to me it should not affect my own source of outgoing healing that I so happen to be able to bask in. Healing received in my opinion should only benefit what you receive from allys but back to the issue. Templars lost a lot based on what I read, they lost major mending and had it replaced with minor mending which to me makes no sense since they're the innate healing class. Dragon Knights lost major mending at-least PvP wise but in PvE that case can still be made since mobs can 1 hit the shield. The reason why I state DKs lose major mending is it is proven in PvP DoTs take off the shield and so do light attacks and from what I have read other friendly DKs can take off your shield by using the same ability.

TL;DR

I will now close with the following. When it comes to changing sustain or probably anything, it should not have been rushed like it is now. Sustain changes should have been rolled out in phases to accurately judge the cut off rate instead of throwing the more casual players off the bridge just so you can achieve what you feel 'balance' is. Changing Champion point system, armor reduction/resource regen, skill cost increases, class sustain, and some racial changes was a bad idea when it comes to doing them all in one go. These changes alongside stealing buffs from classes makes the class boring and plain, instead of stealing to make another class seem more popular (lets face it that's how it looks anyway). I really would love for ZOS in the future to post videos of them running through vMSA, doing hard dungeons/trials, and PvP when it comes to shoving these changes down our throats. It will also be nice if ZOS would gather the opinion of the silent majority (players in the game) instead of just us loud minority who are voicing our opinions on threads. A game currently does this by having a poll system within their game while also having one on their webpage and they've been out longer than this game (since 2000s I think)... just saying.

Turelus · May 2017

The problem is just because the players think it's good doesn't mean the devs do.

This "devs don't listen" has been in every MMO I've played, because they can't listen to everyone and do everything each individual or select group wants.

Also its their game and they have their vision of what the end goal is.

MaxwellC · May 2017

@Turelus
Yup that's a valid point not every change is good, imagine if I said DKs should get a insta-gib ability because why not and there was a ton of support for that idea; well that would be terrible. The problem is as you said players aren't always correct but that stand also reflects on developers as well. The developers aren't always right about changing X which is why there's feedback.

It is their game I won't argue that because well it's obvious and would be illogical to argue that it isn't but.. this game is also ours as well. Without a community the game will die so we in a way share the game, yes they indeed created the game but its the players who drive the game to evolve into something more in terms of changes within that game.

Also I should add, please read the thread or at the very least the TL;DR instead of commenting on the very first thing you read..

Beardimus · May 2017

It's lot to read, but agree with above response. Most console games don't have a forum thus no complaints about devs not listening as you get what you are given, sometimes being able to rant is a misnomer that you feel entitlement for people to listen and act.

If anything ZOS listen too much to the whiney few.

I for one am happy the game is being shook up. Mainly as my build got rekt by Update 13 and i haven't rebuilt so kinda glad its not just me resetting up and that status quo is being changed

MaxwellC · May 2017

@Beardimus
I do have a TL;DR at the bottom although it is quite large to sum it up even more. Changes that change a major variable should not be done all at once but phased in over the course of the PTS. We have 3.0 to 3.04 which is plenty to bring in changes to CP sustain, then changes to sustain in armor, then changes to sustain in skills/class, then changes to races. That in my opinion would be the best to get a understanding on how the players cope with each phase instead of throwing it all down in one go.

alexkdd99 · May 2017

Turelus wrote: »

The problem is just because the players think it's good doesn't mean the devs do.

This "devs don't listen" has been in every MMO I've played, because they can't listen to everyone and do everything each individual or select group wants.

Also its their game and they have their vision of what the end goal is.

It's their game, but don't ask for things and say you are listening when you are not. The only point to the PTS seems to be for them to get free bug testers and they block out anything to do with Balance.

I agree they can't listen to the forums, but they could ask the game as a whole if they wanted. Also what is the point of sending out a set number of beta codes if you don't want the feedback?

If their vision of the end goal for the game doesn't match with the majority of their playerbase and they don't pay attention then their vision will fail. Games have failed because developers chose not to listen to their playerbase, I am not claiming this will happen here, it is always a possibility.

Shad0wfire99 · May 2017

Turelus wrote: »

The problem is just because the players think it's good doesn't mean the devs do.

This "devs don't listen" has been in every MMO I've played, because they can't listen to everyone and do everything each individual or select group wants.

Also its their game and they have their vision of what the end goal is.

Just because the dev's think it's good doesn't mean that it is.

QUEZ420 · May 2017

Nerf the wall of text.

phbell · May 2017

Add my name to the TL;DR list. I did read your section at the bottom however and my $0.02 is as follows:

The vast majority of players are PvE and NOT in these forums. All the changes- cries to "nerf this" or nerf that" which come disguised as "balancing requests" are driven here in the forums by PvP players. In other words few, if any, PvE player ever said " my toon is OP please nerf him". All these changes are driven by streamers and the vocal PvP players in these forums yet players all are affected by the outcome.

Granted. It is ZOS's game and they can do what they want. But giant alterations to character performance have a tremendous affect on the part of the player base that wants their game messed with the least. I am not discrediting any balancing claims made by our PvP enthusiasts, only that the changes driven by their concerns end up affecting a silent majority who will not come to the forums and whine, but rather leave the game if sufficiently unhappy.

This is an situation where ZOS is listening to a vocal subset of the player-base rather than the majority. The easiest solution is to simply separate PvP and PvE servers and balance PvP separately, thus leaving PvE to happliy go about their gaming experience unmolested by sweeping changes. I don't know about anyone else here, but I am already seeing several longtime players (who play on the PTS) cancel subscriptions and now are selling off all the stuff they have collected in preparation for a graceful exit once their fears are realized with the final Morrowind launch.

Anyone here remember another MMO that lost 40% of its player base overnight after making similar gross changes? I plan on sticking around just to hear the THUD.

MaxwellC · May 2017

@phbell
Honestly I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not lol. In my thread I clearly talk about how these changes are ruining the experience in general because it was a big change without any form of introducing other changes incrementally. The changes to sustain should have been brought into phases as sustain is a MAJOR variable in this game. ZOS decided not to do that but instead chunk it all together and say test it without ever letting us test how it would be with no reduction CP in PvE then evolving to lowered reduction/regeneration values in armor,etc.

I do agree that PvP and PvE needs to be balanced separately because no matter how they word it, PvP and PvE are two different games in its self. Changing a skill for PvE does not translate well to PvP and the same goes with changing a skill due to PvP will not translate over to PvE any better.

Joy_Division · May 2017

I hear you but ZoS has fully invested themselves with this patch and the direction of the game to the point where they can't simply say, "This is a bad idea. Let's not go through with this."

The moment the Pax changes were leaked, they were - resoundingly - told by a significant majority in this thread here everything that those of us who dislike this patch have articulated during the PTS process. They ignored that and carried on. In their minds this is the best direction for the game and I think they thought about it very seriously. They are not all of a sudden going to get cold feet.

I don't think ZoS cares if high profile streamers like Deltia quit or if people such as the OP or myself leave because ZoS has created a business model where they do get an influx of new customers that makes up for the loss of disillusioned ESO veterans.

The only thing that is going to get them to reconsider the direction they have taken the game is the bottom line. And that's something nobody will know for months until after release.

MaxwellC · May 2017

@Joy_Division
Yup exactly what I thought when I first saw the leaks I was greatly concerned with that piece of info and I believe at first I thought it was fake until I saw video. ZOS will continue charging through with their beliefs but I feel the other way to change this is the silent majority who aren't informed because well nothing really tells them when they buy the game "Hey you! Yes you! When buying this game you can voice your opinions on the forums located at X".
The player themselves has to find it and most people just don't care to find it until someone tells them when they find out something drastic has just handicapped their class.

starkerealm · May 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

My main issue is that this patch is a clear showing that ZOS has no intention of balancing the game the correct way (sounds arrogant but this is my view point and I do not know everything).

You're right, it does sound arrogant. Saying, "well, but, this is just, like, my opinion, man," doesn't change that.

I get that they're not balancing the game the way you would. But, that, alone, doesn't make it the wrong way to do things.

MaxwellC · May 2017

@starkerealm
Yeah I definitely get that but I was trying to state that the direction of what they deemed balanced hasn't worked which is balancing the game around the CP system and armor that they bring into the game; although my quotations wasn't worded correctly, I still hoped that my point got across which was mainly to state that yeah its arrogant the way I'm coming off but this how I feel about these changes even though my way might not seem like the best way.

I do hope that you did not simply just read the bold and comment but instead read the wall or the TL;DR. I welcome criticism but at the very least at-least talk about how my view is flawed or how it makes no sense or makes sense, instead of judging one part that does not go over the bases of my thread.

phbell · May 2017

@MaxwellC and @Joy_Division

Pretty much agreeing with both of you. Any financial repercussions will lag player base erosion, but their usage stats should provide some insight fairly quickly. Business 101 tells us that it consumes 10x the resources to attract new customers versus keeping existing customers. Ego comes at a price.

It may well be that ZOS does not care about losing players, thinking that they will replaced by new players. Eh? we shall see.

starkerealm · May 2017

@MaxwellC, I skimmed it. I didn't read it fully. I do agree that this isn't the best possible approach to balancing. It's just, when you see users going, "this is wrong," I flash back to the people complaining about how Diablo 3 was "too colorful," back before launch.

There's a huge difference between saying, "I think something should be handled differently," or even just, "wouldn't it be better if..." (to borrow from John Cleese's seminar on creativity), and saying, "no, this is the wrong way to do things."

I do agree that looking to balance around armor instead of around class is causing some serious issues.

Ironically, I do wish they'd go in the opposite direction, giving classes more tools to bend armor and weapons out of their normal role and to their build. For example, if NBs had the ability to apply their medium armor stealth passives while wearing light armor. Or changing some abilities to fit the weapon you have equipped (sort of like how the destruction staff active abilities "swap out" now.)

With the "elemental" classes (DK, Sorc, and (soon) the Warden), it'd be really interesting if there was a way to switch out their signature element. Though, honestly, you could make that change with sets.

Actually, that's another thing that would be interesting. Sets designed around specific classes to the point that they modify one of the class line's abilities. So, you might have a set where each bonus changes one of the Assassination skill line's effects until (as a seven piece bonus) you have an altered effect on the ultimate.

In fairness, I don't think they're trying to homogenize the classes. In that sense saying, "no, this is the wrong way to do that," has some merit. It just kinda feels a little like that sometimes.

Tasear · May 2017

The changes are scary, disappointing, and somewhat annoying, but it was the best time for them to go about these massive changes. Why because the net gain from. Morrowind new players will make up for lost.

We have grand test next week, so lets see what happens till June. They tend to end up doing a good job.

rynth · May 2017

I think there is something all the people that crunch the numbers and squeeze every last bit of power/play ability into builds, classes, gear etc are your own worst enemies. No matter what there will more then likely always be something that is stronger then the other. I'm not saying nerfs are bad, but people act like things are end of the world and this gamer. There is also something that people on these forums that religiously rant and rave on here or keep posting same thing just worded longer and different but in the end is the same. The forums do no represent all the people that play in the game both pvp and pve.

Not to mention what really kills both sides pvp/pve isn't the nerfing its the elitist *** that go after anybody and anyone that doesn't play up to their standards or way they think things should be played. And there are enough of them out there that cause people to not to want to deal with that b/s.

its like this you two people each one has a rice ball, one complains that the other is bigger. So a third person takes a bite to make the larger one smaller. Now smaller one complains that the other person's is bigger and so forth, till what you get is nothing.

MaxwellC · May 2017

@starkerealm
That's an interesting way to look at it when it comes to utilizing different armor for different affects. That would certainly give classes there own unique feel which is something I still feel little by little die each patch.