Ceiling is lowered, well done. When is it time to raise the floor?

Juhasow · May 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I know it's intended to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, but so far the floor haven't been raised yet.

When doing group tool, the veteran dungeons are the first thing you see. You actually have to have knowledge and scroll down and do some effort to find normal dungeons. Players have no idea what's different between veteran and normal dungeons. Players just open group tool and queue for the first thing they see. Also, players have their roles as DD and heal at the same time without knowing it, making a group whipe on the first boss because no healer, no tank and no experience or knowledge about the dungeon or the game in general.

Players are rage quitting and get frustrated over this. Even if it is a casual game, I can guarantee that no one likes to do a dungeon with inexperience players who doesn't know their role.

When I do pug dungeons, I don't ask for much, even though I am a tryhard player myself. I ask politely for end game players who group for a dungeon to at least try to do their roles.
Healer try to heal the group. There is so much more to a healer role I don't even know where to start or end, but main thing that people should know already in level 1, is that a healer gives heals.
Tanks try to soak the damage and actually taunt something. Again, I don't ask for much here, where tank role can do so much in this game. I only ask them to have a taunt on their bar and try to use it.

I am actually suprised myself how many cp600 doesn't even know this. When I started this game 3 years ago, I had taunt on my tank and heals on my healer before I was level 10. Something is wrong here. Is this the same in every mmo out there? I only have ESO as experience.

I founded sulution for that.
1. Always queue for normal random dungeon.
2. If You see You have not experienced players in group just tell to them "Guys go hide over there , or die and I'll finish it" and then You solo the boss which is not that hard on normal dungeon.

Problem solved

Juhasow · May 2017

Nestor wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I am actually surprised myself how many cp600 doesn't even know this. When I started this game 3 years ago, I had taunt on my tank and heals on my healer before I was level 10. Something is wrong here. Is this the same in every mmo out there? I only have ESO as experience.

People like DPS because it is all flashy and sparkly and, well, EASY TO DO.

...

You just pissed off many people with that words mate.

SickDuck · May 2017

Group finder should be a casual tool for running dungeons when someone does not have 'em own group around. The size of the ESO dungeons could nicely support a casual run for fun.

Problem is grouping tool usability and user friendliness is horrible. Even the experienced struggle using it and not just because of the bugs. New players or uninformed casuals don't have much chance.

It should provide a way to do a less than an hour run with people that have at least basic qualifications on the content thrown against the group. In reality waiting times already can make it over an hour with limited options you can do, since there's no way knowing when will the game test your reflexes with a 'ready check'. Big slap to user experience already. Once in the dungeon the regular horrors OP and others pointed out in numerous threads may start. And funnily these horrors will come up much more in the dlc (ie not free) dungeons. Marketing should rejoice by reading the "lfg - no dlc" messages in the capital city zone chat.

Normal runs are doable if you have a decent end game character, but still can be a painful experience. And can be boring for any decent end game player very fast. Veterans are utter gambling and just get frustrating too many times. Which leaves the tool for premade, preselected groups doing random runs for the reward. Not sure if that was the design goal.

Panth141 · May 2017

Turelus wrote: »

...telling me their leaving because...

@Turelus

After seeing your post about trying to find a typo that you could blame Gina for, I just couldn't help myself

.

Magdalina · May 2017

Nestor wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I am actually surprised myself how many cp600 doesn't even know this. When I started this game 3 years ago, I had taunt on my tank and heals on my healer before I was level 10. Something is wrong here. Is this the same in every mmo out there? I only have ESO as experience.

People like DPS because it is all flashy and sparkly and, well, easy to do.

If they really want to show off their "mad skillz" for the game, become a Support Healer or a Support Tank. We get more people who can fulfill those roles, not queue as that role, but actually do it, then most of the Group Finder complaints will go away.

Ironically enough most people who can do thes roles refuse to perform them in groupfinder and much rather do it on their dps if they have to, because if there isn't much to support to start with, that support kinda goes wasted. If both your dps do 5k dps, it doesn't really matter how fast you can get your Warhorn up and how many debuffs you can apply.

So amusingly enough it's a vicious circle where the competent support role people, who are actually quite numerous, just refuse to use groupfinder, leaving it with shortage of tanks/healers, let alone good ones.

To poor @OrphanHelgen, well what can I say...I feel your pain XD *shares a cookie* I pugged vet icp yesterday lol. That moment when 40k health tank gets repeatedly oneshot, then you get agro and somehow don't die for the rest of the fight despite having 16k health and 9k stam XD

Honestly the big issue is lack of learning curve. It's creating and widening the gap between good and bad(or if you want, expeirenced and inexperienced) players and it's frustrating to both sides. But Zeni evidently doesn't view this as a problem.

Turelus · May 2017

Panth141 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

...telling me their leaving because...

Turelus

After seeing your post about trying to find a typo that you could blame Gina for, I just couldn't help myself .

Damn it.
What's most annoying is I know all the correct they're/there/their usage but when I type fast my brain shuts down and I just inject incorrect words.
If you watch my posts carefully enough you'll notice it a lot, I can't even blame an autocorrect because much of my posting is done from desktop machines.
I either need to slow down how fast I type or figure out what it is which makes my brain go weird when I type fast.

Also still trying to find something Gina does wrong, after she made fun of my typo of 2017 to 217. Grrr community managers!

Edit because typo, screw it at least I am going home in 30mins.

Dantaria · May 2017

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Rise the floor? You mean git gud? "Lowering the celling" is done by developers to halt the power creep (which in the end is caused by developers too). The "Rising the floor" part is done by players who learn how to play their classes, practice and improve their skills instead of waiting for developers to give them a magic item +2K DPS

Erm... But there are magic +2k DPS items.

Well, you can't buy them. You have to grind them. But. Here is the deal.

Now, in Homestead, casual 400CP no-pets magsorc me can hit 28k in Julianos. Which is totally fine for pretty much all endgame content. Learning the class and practising rotation got me there, I got gut and now RL Craglorn vet Trials.

On PTS I hit 24k max with this setup. 23k consistenly.

The solution is simple. Respec to petsorc and farm Necropotence. Do you see the problem?

Now, in Homestead, we all know that there is the meta. Necropotence for Sorcs, BSW for magDK, etc, etc. However. This is like being-the-absolute-best meta. Which you, if you know your class and rotation, can easily disregard. You'll make through vAA in ~50 min instead of 29 min, but who cares, right?

On PTS we're all nerfed. But content isn't.

Requirement for vMoL is 30k DPS. Which you totally could previously achieve on ~450CP with partly crafted gear. And be totally like "ok, guys, I'm not the best, but I'm doing enough, can I join?". And your guildies be like, "yeah, sure, jump in".

Now the requirement stays the same. But 30k is achieved only on 600CP with full BiS gear. Well... maybe with exception for sorcs, yeah

Farm Necropotentce and you can make this 30k on ~500CP

In Homestead learning you class and practising rotation is enough. In Morrowind you learn your class, practise your rotation... and also farm BiS and use only best skill tool or gtfo.

Or no vMoL for you. No vCoAII for you. No vICP for you. No vRoM for you...

Now when I'm in the mood, I can just type in guild chat "Guys, vAA newbie run! Anyone is allowed, only requirement - 20k DPS on target skeleton!". And I'll get my group instantly. All kind of people 250-600CP.

Morrowind? Well, only ~400CP+ now. And gathering a group will take some time.

But can I lower the requirement? No. Because DPS-check Varlariel remains the same, the speed of the axes-spawn remains the same and final stage of the Mage remains the same.

Sorry, guys. Not my fault. Thank ZoS

Azyle1 · May 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Rise the floor? You mean git gud? "Lowering the celling" is done by developers to halt the power creep (which in the end is caused by developers too). The "Rising the floor" part is done by players who learn how to play their classes, practice and improve their skills instead of waiting for developers to give them a magic item +2K DPS

Erm... But there are magic +2k DPS items.

Well, you can't buy them. You have to grind them. But. Here is the deal.

Now, in Homestead, casual 400CP no-pets magsorc me can hit 28k in Julianos. Which is totally fine for pretty much all endgame content. Learning the class and practising rotation got me there, I got gut and now RL Craglorn vet Trials.

On PTS I hit 24k max with this setup. 23k consistenly.

The solution is simple. Respec to petsorc and farm Necropotence. Do you see the problem?

Now, in Homestead, we all know that there is the meta. Necropotence for Sorcs, BSW for magDK, etc, etc. However. This is like being-the-absolute-best meta. Which you, if you know your class and rotation, can easily disregard. You'll make through vAA in ~50 min instead of 29 min, but who cares, right?

On PTS we're all nerfed. But content isn't.

Requirement for vMoL is 30k DPS. Which you totally could previously achieve on ~450CP with partly crafted gear. And be totally like "ok, guys, I'm not the best, but I'm doing enough, can I join?". And your guildies be like, "yeah, sure, jump in".

Now the requirement stays the same. But 30k is achieved only on 600CP with full BiS gear. Well... maybe with exception for sorcs, yeah Farm Necropotentce and you can make this 30k on ~500CP

In Homestead learning you class and practising rotation is enough. In Morrowind you learn your class, practise your rotation... and also farm BiS and use only best skill tool or gtfo.

Or no vMoL for you. No vCoAII for you. No vICP for you. No vRoM for you...

Now when I'm in the mood, I can just type in guild chat "Guys, vAA newbie run! Anyone is allowed, only requirement - 20k DPS on target skeleton!". And I'll get my group instantly. All kind of people 250-600CP.

Morrowind? Well, only ~400CP+ now. And gathering a group will take some time.

But can I lower the requirement? No. Because DPS-check Varlariel remains the same, the speed of the axes-spawn remains the same and final stage of the Mage remains the same.

Sorry, guys. Not my fault. Thank ZoS

This is the only concern I have with all the nerfs.

SnubbS · May 2017

Nestor wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I am actually surprised myself how many cp600 doesn't even know this. When I started this game 3 years ago, I had taunt on my tank and heals on my healer before I was level 10. Something is wrong here. Is this the same in every mmo out there? I only have ESO as experience.

People like DPS because it is all flashy and sparkly and, well, easy to do.

If they really want to show off their "mad skillz" for the game, become a Support Healer or a Support Tank. We get more people who can fulfill those roles, not queue as that role, but actually do it, then most of the Group Finder complaints will go away.

DPS is (mechanically speaking) the most challenging thing to do in ESO. I suppose you're talking about pug finder dungeons where you only need 20-25k to kill things semi-easily—those aren't really that challenging I agree. But as far as healing it honestly comes down to the fact that it's easier to heal good players than bad ones, and you'll find more bad ones than good ones in group finder.

I think there are two main reasons that there are more damage dealers than Healers/Tanks. Games themselves are in large part about doing damage, killing things etc. The other reason is that this game doesn't define the roles when you start out—but even if they were defined, you'd still have to/probably want to build for damage to complete your initial quests/story in a timely fashion.

Galwylin · May 2017

Is tanking interesting and full of cool abilities you get to use? Is healing others also interesting and cool abilities? I dunno myself but neither sounds particularly fun to me. These group finder systems are never going to reach their potential when a sizable portion thinks only one role gets to do the cool stuff. And if you're not making tanking and healing cool, its just always going to be full of tanks and healers who really want to dps. It seems if every class can be every role, then do away with the roles. You are expected to heal yourself (others is nice) so should have the tools. Expected to take damage when necessary but die when you take all of it. I think that would ease people's frustrations because people have been having these issues since 1999. Its time for games to move along to 2017. Was the first game trailer supposed to leave us with the idea, oh, good. They have a tank, a healer and dps. They can group now.

Huyen · May 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Funny... everyone keeps telling me their leaving because...
ZOS doesn't listen.

Sustain got nerfed.

Their class got nerfed.

Warden is pay to win.

Deltia said so.

There is no end game content.

The games to casual now, grrr casuals.

And all along it was really because people don't play healers right in pugs.

And the points you have listed are the same in any MMO (altho deltia is new), and 99% will keep playing anyway.

Mojmir · May 2017

Nestor wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I am actually surprised myself how many cp600 doesn't even know this. When I started this game 3 years ago, I had taunt on my tank and heals on my healer before I was level 10. Something is wrong here. Is this the same in every mmo out there? I only have ESO as experience.

People like DPS because it is all flashy and sparkly and, well, easy to do.

If they really want to show off their "mad skillz" for the game, become a Support Healer or a Support Tank. We get more people who can fulfill those roles, not queue as that role, but actually do it, then most of the Group Finder complaints will go away.

Lol group finder doesn't work,if you ha e something against DPS feel free to run without them.

mewcatus · May 2017

There is an easy way to raise the floor. Just weaken the mobs and bosses. No adjustment to skills required.

elantaura · May 2017

It's all about everyone doing there bit of teaching for example
I tank pugs, I have taunts and buffs but discovered something I need tooccasionally teach healers to heal. Often dodgy healers need an insentive so you got to loose agro occasionally then they Bol. You range taunt boss back.Igneous Shield dps vigour buff PA igneous weapons up notice healer is not healing again so...I forget to taunt - it's a vicious cycle.but I will get those healers healing.

Xylphan · May 2017

Azyle1 wrote: »

...The mechanics are not hard. Certainly not harder than WoW/FFXIV...

Have you played FFXIV or WoW?

You can literally play WoW/FFXIV one handed. It's tab targeted. FFXIV is even easier than WoW. You don't even need to dodge. You can do most non-end game content doing nothing more than standing in front of stuff and watching for your skills to come of the global cool down. And that's with melee characters. Casters and ranged it's even worse.

You won't get very far in ESO playing like that. Tanking in particular is a lot more challenging as there's no AoE taunts. FFXIV tanking is almost laughably easy by comparison.

Betsararie · May 2017

By my view casual gaming isn't something to really be celebrated.

The push to overly-casual games is something that has hurt gaming in the past years.

I understand that ESO should have a casual option and I think that is fine, but more difficult content (and more of it) with higher skill caps is something that I think would help the game.

We need more classes, more dungeons, more of everything. Another pvp map. I doubt any of that will happen, however.

Galwylin · May 2017

mewcatus wrote: »

There is an easy way to raise the floor. Just weaken the mobs and bosses. No adjustment to skills required.

I don't think that's a solution. We probably need all classes to be a bit of a tank and everyone sort of switch off. So the one the boss is focused on can fall back a bit, heal up and gather resources then back to step in for the next one that needs to step back. But that's going to require classes to be almost meaningless. I hate the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps. I just don't know how to improve it or progress it. I just hope someone does. The complaint about tanks not tanking correctly or healers not healing or dps not doing enough damage is almost two decades old. Its the same thing in every game I've ever played and no one's found a workable solution except to keep complaining about the tank, healer and dps they get in groups. *shrug*

zaria · May 2017

Nestor wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I am actually surprised myself how many cp600 doesn't even know this. When I started this game 3 years ago, I had taunt on my tank and heals on my healer before I was level 10. Something is wrong here. Is this the same in every mmo out there? I only have ESO as experience.

People like DPS because it is all flashy and sparkly and, well, easy to do.

If they really want to show off their "mad skillz" for the game, become a Support Healer or a Support Tank. We get more people who can fulfill those roles, not queue as that role, but actually do it, then most of the Group Finder complaints will go away.

You are also DD the questing or grinding so you gear for it naturally. Another issue with Morrowind is that people will not have resource issues then questing, might get a bit then farming public dungeons but you have downtime enough to keep you topped up most of the time. You will get it in dungeons.

Valencer · May 2017

This game has never had (and probably will never have) a proper learning experience.

Absolutely nothing of substance is discussed in the game's tutorials besides how to block, how to light/heavy attack, how to fire off random spells and how to fire a siege weapon in cyrodiil.

It teaches you nothing about the finer details of character builds and the combat system. How the various stats, set bonuses and enchantments affect the various things your character can do. How a proper rotation works (including weaving) etc.

This will haunt the game until theyve dumbed down every single interesting mechanic it had to offer

Lavennin · May 2017

I was talking to a friend who recently begun playing ESO so he is lvl 10. I realized he queued as a tank.

Me: "You don't have weapon swap but at least you can taunt so you are better than 90% of the other tanks I guess."

Him: "No I don't taunt. But it's okay, our CP300 DPS did everything last time."

So for normal dungeons it probably does not matter, only vets need tank? I've never done any dungeons in this game so really don't know. But I imagine if he ended up with a bunch of low levels it would have been fun hehe.

Darlgon · May 2017

Lavennin wrote: »

I was talking to a friend who recently begun playing ESO so he is lvl 10. I realized he queued as a tank.

Me: "You don't have weapon swap but at least you can taunt so you are better than 90% of the other tanks I guess."

Him: "No I don't taunt. But it's okay, our CP300 DPS did everything last time."

So for normal dungeons it probably does not matter, only vets need tank? I've never done any dungeons in this game so really don't know. But I imagine if he ended up with a bunch of low levels it would have been fun hehe.

This sounds like someone who had a vet in their group, who told them, "Go hide in a corner, so you dont learn how to play, and I kill the boss."

Kiwi · May 2017

Azyle1 wrote: »

I've said this on Gamefaqs.com....

ESO may be the most stupid fanbase as far as MMO's go.

People still don't realize that if they are even an ESO plus member, they aren't getting Morrowind for free. People do not understand what type of game they are playing.

An MMO first. People don't want to learn their classes. This is by far the most casual MMO I have played (also the most fun) yet you would think it is hard because people refuse to learn. The mechanics are not hard. Certainly not harder than WoW/FFXIV.

Tanks I do PuGs with have no clear how to hold aggro. They just think they stand in front on the boss and.. well, that's it.

You can't argue ESO Is NOT casual. Even the most difficult content pales in difficulty to other games (Again, I welcome this).

If you think every group you have been in sucks then you need to think about what all those groups had in common

Edziu · May 2017

@OrphanHelgen
you forgat also about something...while ZO$ lowered ceiling they with same time lowered this floor more that ceiling because ceiling know how this game work etc and floor have no idea how most of thing in game work so this floor is more lowered with current nerfs with sustain and rest

Kali_Despoine · May 2017

I find that too many dps queue for the support roles because of the wait time to get a random dungeon. Now I run support roles in dungeons and trials all day but, I will not play the overland quests as one since there is no fast damage on a true support role.
Sure we can carry dps gear but we would also need to respect our cp and many times our abilities as well. This can be costly.

The best thing to do is queue as a support role and let the dps fill the voids. Now not every class can be a healer but every class can tank so it's up to you how you role your toon. (though I did have a friend whom healed with his DK. lmao)
I have healed all vet dungeons w/ my sorc, templar and night blade while I have tanked all vet dungeons with all classes but night blade. The only reason I have not tanked w/ my night blade is the fact that I just haven't yet. I will though someday.It will be the last great adventure I can do in the game as all other content has been done.

The only thing that is troubling to me is the lack of content but that maybe because I'm a week one drop player on the console.

Magdalina · May 2017

Valencer wrote: »

This game has never had (and probably will never have) a proper learning experience.

While I'm not sure I'd call it proper, old main quest and vet zones made damn sure you knew how to block, dodge, tell aoe skills from single target ones and be able to keep yourself again.

I still think old vet zones were overkill but in retrospect it was actually better than what we have now. Back then the pugging experience was like...unbelievably better. Honestly it's shocking how much average pug quality has plummeted since then, it's astounding. I mean there were always bad or/and new people here and there but now...yeah. Now it's more like "there still are some decent players here and there".

FearlessOne_2014 · May 2017

Azyle1 wrote: »

I've said this on Gamefaqs.com....

ESO may be the most stupid fanbase as far as MMO's go.

People still don't realize that if they are even an ESO plus member, they aren't getting Morrowind for free. People do not understand what type of game they are playing.

An MMO first. People don't want to learn their classes. This is by far the most casual MMO I have played (also the most fun) yet you would think it is hard because people refuse to learn. The mechanics are not hard. Certainly not harder than WoW/FFXIV.

Tanks I do PuGs with have no clear how to hold aggro. They just think they stand in front on the boss and.. well, that's it.

You can't argue ESO Is NOT casual. Even the most difficult content pales in difficulty to other games (Again, I welcome this).

GW2 saids hello.

FearlessOne_2014 · May 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I've said this on Gamefaqs.com....

ESO may be the most stupid fanbase as far as MMO's go.

People still don't realize that if they are even an ESO plus member, they aren't getting Morrowind for free. People do not understand what type of game they are playing.

An MMO first. People don't want to learn their classes. This is by far the most casual MMO I have played (also the most fun) yet you would think it is hard because people refuse to learn. The mechanics are not hard. Certainly not harder than WoW/FFXIV.

Tanks I do PuGs with have no clear how to hold aggro. They just think they stand in front on the boss and.. well, that's it.

You can't argue ESO Is NOT casual. Even the most difficult content pales in difficulty to other games (Again, I welcome this).

You missed the whole, "it's all pay to win," crap. Where large chunks of the community will point at completely cosmetic items and claim they're P2W.

Oh yes, how could I forget that. Also, people think that we are being ripped off because you have to buy Morrowind, therefore it is a "cashgrab".

Well, that everything is a "cash grab."

Like the houses, which are simultaneously: Useless, P2W, and a Cash Grab.

How do you P2W with houses?

Kali_Despoine · May 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

While I'm not sure I'd call it proper, old main quest and vet zones made damn sure you knew how to block, dodge, tell aoe skills from single target ones and be able to keep yourself again.

I still think old vet zones were overkill but in retrospect it was actually better than what we have now. Back then the pugging experience was like...unbelievably better. Honestly it's shocking how much average pug quality has plummeted since then, it's astounding. I mean there were always bad or/and new people here and there but now...yeah. Now it's more like "there still are some decent players here and there".

I agree with this statement. The T1 parch killed the game and made the player base soft and grinding to CP600 easier.
Overland is way to easy even for a beginning player.

Turelus · May 2017

Huyen wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Funny... everyone keeps telling me their leaving because...
ZOS doesn't listen.

Sustain got nerfed.

Their class got nerfed.

Warden is pay to win.

Deltia said so.

There is no end game content.

The games to casual now, grrr casuals.

And all along it was really because people don't play healers right in pugs.

And the points you have listed are the same in any MMO (altho deltia is new), and 99% will keep playing anyway.

Sooo... Deltia is the 1%?