CP 160 Requirement for Vet Dungeons

Daoist · May 2017

Or at least for a good bulk of them...

Honestly, as much as I hate to say this, but a "gear score" check would be even more ideal in some cases, because just hitting CP 160 doesn't mean that you have any gear on. It just means you can at least equip good gear.

That being said, its frustrating enough to use the ESO Group Finder. The thing has been broken since launch, and its not much better these days (not at all most days). That being said, getting grouped up with a CP 19 in a Vet White Gold Tower or another difficult Vet dungeon is simply infuriating. Its a huge amount of salt applied to a 2 year old wound known as the ESO group finder, that simply won't heal.

It puts you in a situation where you just can't win. You either fail to do anything in the Vet dungeon, and leave after 15 minutes, or you leave immediately and just wait out 15 minutes before you can enter another queue and wait that out again. In some cases, you do this and get grouped up with yet another player that is below CP 160.

Especially as a DPS, its just completely unfair as the wait times are long as is.

My point is, if you're going to design dungeons to be more geared towards end-game players... then make it exclusive to end game players, right? Otherwise, everyone loses out in the end, and its just a huge waste of time.

Please, no one toss out that answer of (just find your own group or go with your guild). That is clearly not what I'm addressing. I'm specifically talking about the Group Finder and isolating the topic to the function of the Group Finder.

Please change this!

Resipsa131 · May 2017

Limiting the players in the activity finder tool will only exacerbate the issue of long wait times for DPS, locking them out of Group finder isn't the answer. If you are going to que for an activity you are undertaking a social contract. You agree to perform the role you check in for despite how easy you as a CP600 may feel about the difficulty level of the dungeon and you agree to try your best and help your group succeed.

I think where I'd be willing to side with you is on the amount of time required to stay in the dungeon. I think on some of the more difficult dungeons (DLC) you can tell quickly that your group will not be able to complete. Lowering the time to five minutes to prove that you can finish the dungeon is enough to tell and enough to stop players from shopping for groups that only include level CP 600 players.

Magdalina · May 2017

While I understand where you're coming from, this would not solve anything.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there's nothing making a clueless 160 cp better than a clueless 90 cp. There's also really not much making a clueles cp 600 better than a clueless cp 90. The fact that he COULD potentially use best gear in the game really isn't helping if at 600 cp his prime rotation is hardcast frags->bow light attack->hardcast frags, and yes this exists.

If anything, low cp clueless players tend to be more open to suggestions and actually try to follow advices most of the time. The 300-600 cp are mostly hopeless, they just assume since they got so "far" in the game as it is they're good and you're the bad guy and elitist jerk for trying to tell them how to play.

There is an issue, hell there is a HUGE issue, but it's the issue of lacking learning curve. Leveling up to cp 160/600 takes time but it involves 0 skill whatsoever. You can light attack everything in the open world to death naked, same for normal dungeons pretty much. There's nothing preparing them for vet dungeons whatsoever.

If anything, I'd say let them in earlier rather than later. It sucks, but since we don't have ANY other learning curve than vet dungeons, might as well show it to them earlier rather than later so they don't level up to be that cp 350 guy that I watched die to a single skeever in vet Wayrest I. Or the 13k health 600 cp healer I had to carry on my 40 cp baby eu sorc in vet Arx(last fight is kind of painful on hm when your healer is perma dead). Or the 400-ish cp 14k health dps in vet coa 2 that proudly told me he had all bis gold gear and believed health didn't matter for a dps then proceeded to spend the whole fight dead(would insta die after being ressed). Or...I could go on for a while you know, I have rich pugging experience

Nestor · May 2017

I have said this before and I will say it again. If your concerned about the make up of your group, don't use the Dungeon Finder. Form your own group and travel to the dungeon manually.

If you use the Group Finder, then accept what you get and work with it.

And complaining about how long it takes a DPS to queue when 90% of the players are DPS does not make sense. Of course it's going to take longer to get into a dungeon that way. If you want in quicker, learn to heal. You can level the resto staff and unlock all the skills in a couple of hours in a Public Dungeon. But, if you queue as a healer, you better be a healer. Tanking, that is a gear and CP choice, but everyone who runs dungeons should have a Tank. Heck I have the most fun when I am tanking, much more so than a DPS. DPS is nothing, just pick a rotation and do it. Tanking, now that takes some skill.

I get it the Dungeon Finder is not perfect. And its probably never going to be perfect. The main reason is outside of ZOS's control, the fact that 90% of the players are DPS. But it does what it says, it finds 4 people filling the 3 roles and places them in a dungeon. If that is not good for you, then quit using it and form groups from your friends or guild mates.

Kodrac · May 2017

Nestor wrote: »

I have said this before and I will say it again. If your concerned about the make up of your group, don't use the Dungeon Finder. Form your own group and travel to the dungeon manually.

But that might involve social skills.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

While I'm not going to *** your thought process I disagree that any cp or gear check should apply
BECAUSE ZeniMax is communicating a One Tamriel idea

Now I do believe that instead of setting vet based on hitpoints and resistances, it should be an entirely different experience but the same of the normal dungeon versions.

Let's imagine no changes other than what's on PTS......and if veteran meant no set bonuses and / or all players base stats and attributes were normalized that would be more of a hard mode.

Then they should remove the hard mode activators completely and consider vet always hard mode.
In my head, that opens up normal and vet to any CP level because normalized stats would eliminate any cp impacts therefore actually removing the issue many attempt to avoid by trying to set certain requirements. That's also why I suggested sets be deactivated in this mode only.

Zvorgin · May 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

While I'm not going to *** your thought process I disagree that any cp or gear check should apply
BECAUSE ZeniMax is communicating a One Tamriel idea

Now I do believe that instead of setting vet based on hitpoints and resistances, it should be an entirely different experience but the same of the normal dungeon versions.

Let's imagine no changes other than what's on PTS......and if veteran meant no set bonuses and / or all players base stats and attributes were normalized that would be more of a hard mode.

Then they should remove the hard mode activators completely and consider vet always hard mode.
In my head, that opens up normal and vet to any CP level because normalized stats would eliminate any cp impacts therefore actually removing the issue many attempt to avoid by trying to set certain requirements. That's also why I suggested sets be deactivated in this mode only.

What is the point of running content for items if they are deactivated? Might as well just not play.

Daoist · May 2017

Reading through your comments, I understand some of the concern in regards to this MMO wanting everyone to be able to play together. However, at the cost of what?

On the one hand, the current difficulty of some Vet Dungeons are not scaled correctly to allow for any person the ability to complete them regardless of their CP level and thus their gear. Certain dungeons were designed at later times with the understanding that players had already been playing for X amount of time and therefore had already acquired some gear, including set items. If you don't take that into account, then 1 of 2 issues happens.

1. You don't have the ability to deal with the dungeon because you are under geared for it, or the dungeon is not tuned for everyone as it is supposedly intended to be.

2. You actually do have the dungeons at a level that allows everyone to do them despite gear / CP level, and at that point what's the point of any of it because there is no sense of progression in the game that can be experienced. You would simply get to lvl 50 and very quickly out gear every single dungeon in the game, causing them to pose no additional challenge.

My main point here though, is that the Group Finder itself is where the issue lies. Someone posted a response of "If your concerned about the make up of your group, don't use the Dungeon Finder. Form your own group and travel to the dungeon manually." even though I explicitly stated that obviously anyone knows this, but my topic is specifically targeted at the Group Finder. Not finding a band-aid solution to the obvious problem.

If the Group Finder is supposed to be designed to group people together in order to defeat a dungeon, then the dungeon, the group finder tool, or both should reflect this in full.

Other MMO games have dealt with the issue in their own way, and it works. You never get a player that is incapable of doing the dungeon "BASED ON THEIR LEVEL AND GEAR". This is the most important thing here, because of course a full geared player can still be terrible, but it would be nice to know that the Group Finder is at least ensuring that, yes, this player is technically capable of pulling the dps, hps, or mitigation required to defeat this dungeon.

If Zeni wants to make this more a "One Tamriel" type of MMO, then they have just opened the door to a new set of issues that could very well come up. My topic is one of those issues.

Either way, my points are as above. You either need the dungeons tuned correctly at the cost of progression, or you need to identify the progression and make the Group Finder tool respect that progression.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

Zvorgin wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

While I'm not going to *** your thought process I disagree that any cp or gear check should apply
BECAUSE ZeniMax is communicating a One Tamriel idea

Now I do believe that instead of setting vet based on hitpoints and resistances, it should be an entirely different experience but the same of the normal dungeon versions.

Let's imagine no changes other than what's on PTS......and if veteran meant no set bonuses and / or all players base stats and attributes were normalized that would be more of a hard mode.

Then they should remove the hard mode activators completely and consider vet always hard mode.
In my head, that opens up normal and vet to any CP level because normalized stats would eliminate any cp impacts therefore actually removing the issue many attempt to avoid by trying to set certain requirements. That's also why I suggested sets be deactivated in this mode only.

What is the point of running content for items if they are deactivated? Might as well just not play.

@Zvorgin
From the PTS pending updates and changes it won't matter much in the future so my idea hoped to align with future direction as it seems they are going to continue changing items and sets for less impact, procs and resource benefits.

On the other point of view, nerfs and then buffing mobs is the issue so keeping it simple addresses the OP and many other similar threads where the issues are stats and sets

Daoist · May 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

From the PTS pending updates and changes it won't matter much in the future so my idea hoped to align with future direction as it seems they are going to continue changing items and sets for less impact, procs and resource benefits.

Man, I hope not... that's a terrible idea.

As much as people want to act like gear isn't the driving force in an MMO at times, it is. In fact, its pretty much the only driving force to continue to play the game.

There are much more engaging quests found in ESO which does put it above the competition in that regard, but its still an MMO. An MMO is chasing the carrot on the stick by design (currently). Take that carrot away and what reason is there to do any of it, at least repeating it for long periods of time?

Gear needs to feel like it has an impact, and not just marginally.

zaria · May 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

While I understand where you're coming from, this would not solve anything.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there's nothing making a clueless 160 cp better than a clueless 90 cp. There's also really not much making a clueles cp 600 better than a clueless cp 90. The fact that he COULD potentially use best gear in the game really isn't helping if at 600 cp his prime rotation is hardcast frags->bow light attack->hardcast frags, and yes this exists.

If anything, low cp clueless players tend to be more open to suggestions and actually try to follow advices most of the time. The 300-600 cp are mostly hopeless, they just assume since they got so "far" in the game as it is they're good and you're the bad guy and elitist jerk for trying to tell them how to play.

There is an issue, hell there is a HUGE issue, but it's the issue of lacking learning curve. Leveling up top cp 160/600 takes time but it involves 0 skill whatsoever. You can light attack everything in the open world to death naked, same for normal dungeons pretty much. There's nothing preparing them for vet dungeons whatsoever.

If anything, I'd say let them in earlier rather than later. It sucks, but since we don't have ANY other learning curve than vet dungeons, might as well show it to them earlier rather than later so they don't level up to be that cp 350 guy that I watched die to a single skeever in vet Wayrest I. Or the 13k health 600 cp healer I had to carry on my 40 cp baby eu sorc in vet Arx(last fight is kind of painful on hm when your healer is perma dead). Or the 400-ish cp 14k health dps in vet coa 2 that proudly told me he had all bis gold gear and believed health didn't matter for a dps then proceeded to spend the whole fight dead(would insta die after being ressed). Or...I could go on for a while you know, I have rich pugging experience

This, mostly go as healer and always inspect health and warn if out, srendarr so can also see buffs.
One in player in a pug during the anniversary was very impressed as I saw he did not have have food nor cake buff so I activated it and told him to have desert, "buffs is healers job"

Food is so stupid cheap I always use it even then questing.

No issue with an cp160 cap on veteran pugs. pre formed groups would just have the cp10 requirement.
Players expectation for an smooth run has increased since release.

Never got any light attack players in veteran yet, has had a couple in normal dungeons.
Feels pretty stupid if you do 50% dps as healer doing 8K

Zvorgin · May 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Zvorgin wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

While I'm not going to *** your thought process I disagree that any cp or gear check should apply
BECAUSE ZeniMax is communicating a One Tamriel idea

Now I do believe that instead of setting vet based on hitpoints and resistances, it should be an entirely different experience but the same of the normal dungeon versions.

Let's imagine no changes other than what's on PTS......and if veteran meant no set bonuses and / or all players base stats and attributes were normalized that would be more of a hard mode.

Then they should remove the hard mode activators completely and consider vet always hard mode.
In my head, that opens up normal and vet to any CP level because normalized stats would eliminate any cp impacts therefore actually removing the issue many attempt to avoid by trying to set certain requirements. That's also why I suggested sets be deactivated in this mode only.

What is the point of running content for items if they are deactivated? Might as well just not play.

@Zvorgin
From the PTS pending updates and changes it won't matter much in the future so my idea hoped to align with future direction as it seems they are going to continue changing items and sets for less impact, procs and resource benefits.

On the other point of view, nerfs and then buffing mobs is the issue so keeping it simple addresses the OP and many other similar threads where the issues are stats and sets

I think there is actually a greater emphasis on sets with CP becoming less impactful, but I may have missed the language in the patch notes you are referring to. It seems if sets are made unnecessary, the content that drops them are also unnecessary unless we get a system of items that all have 1 piece bonuses but that seems unlikely.

Bobby_V_Rockit · May 2017

Should at the very least be a requirement to complete the normal mode without boss skipping

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

@Daoist
What do you suggest then because initially the issue is CP, process sets and putting all points into one stat.....if CP didn't exist ppl would complain about wanting some means of progression and ppl are upset about changes on PTS ?

@Zvorgin
This would only be an adjustment for vet, not normal and let's make sure we are on the same page. I'm thinking dungeons only in context to the OP