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Either undo the sustain nerfs to StamDK or neuter Dark Deal for real
Twohothardware
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StamSorc is already pretty much the best and easiest PvP class in the game second only to MagSorc. Increasing the cast time of Dark Deal by a whopping 0.2 seconds while destroying the sustain and healing of StamDK with a half a dozen different nerfs to the class on top of the global Stamina nerfs is going to put so much distance between the two classes that DK can no longer compete and will be a class ignored for Battlegrounds. Either undo a bunch of these DK sustain nerfs or apply the same equal treatment to all classes, especially the class that's already sitting on top.
Dark Deal needs to take longer to cast (more than just an extra 0.2s) and it needs a penalty of those resources lost when it is interrupted. Period. Or undo the StamDK nerfs. All of them.
Edited by Twohothardware on May 10, 2017 1:51AM Dark Deal needs to take longer to cast (more than just an extra 0.2s) and it needs a penalty of those resources lost when it is interrupted. Period. Or undo the StamDK nerfs. All of them.
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scipionumatia✭✭✭✭How is battle roar working on PTS? If you have exactly 29500 stam how much are you getting back per point of ulti cost?Scipio Numantia Red guard Nightblade PvP- AD
Scipio Asiaticus Khajiit Nightblade (CRAFTER/DPS) PvE- EP
Altmer Nightblade PvP- EP
Fueoculto Breton Templar (DPS) PvE- EP
Rasoculto Orc Dragon Knight PvP- EP
Caethus Argonian Templar (HEAL) PvE- EP
Vale Oso Nord Sorc (DPS) PvE- AD
Sir-Galahad-the-pure Altmer Sorc (DPS) PvE- EP
Scipionumantine Imperial Templar PvP- EP
Un-bearable Imperial Warden PVP- EP
Vale Bear Altmer Warden PvP- EP
Baits-All-Zergs Argonian Dragon knight PVP- DC0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
In contrast, dark deal only gives back one resource and some health. It's an active skill which can be interrupted. In other words, it can be completely shut down.
It's not unreasonable why the changes look the way they do, if you look at it logically rather than through a lens of spite and sorc hate. If you're fighting a stam sorc as a DK and can't interrupt and capitalize on it, well, that's a learn to play issue.13 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, stam sorcs are in no way or form better than templars.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.1 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
Please just stop. The damage shield with Battle Spirit is like 2k, it's basically non-existent. This also means that you don't get mending from it anymore since it will be gone immediately.
The stam return is a joke compared to what DD gives. It costs 4k+ magika and does not even give back that amount of stamina anymore.
Meanwhile DD gives a way better ratio of mag to stam, as well as a bunch of health for some reason. No competent Sorc is going to DD where they can get interrupted. Just streak somewhere and then cast it if you have it.
Any DK would trade these skills in a heartbeat. DD needs actual nerfs.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~10 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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QFT.Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
In contrast, dark deal only gives back one resource and some health. It's an active skill which can be interrupted. In other words, it can be completely shut down.
It's not unreasonable why the changes look the way they do, if you look at it logically rather than through a lens of spite and sorc hate. If you're fighting a stam sorc as a DK and can't interrupt and capitalize on it, well, that's a learn to play issue.
So many people try to use other classes as a form of back up for their desires for their own. Rather than try obscure means to get some backing in this way, why not just post "I don't like this change because..." and then give some reasons why you feel it impact you gameplay in a bad way.
That's actually useful feedback.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
In contrast, dark deal only gives back one resource and some health. It's an active skill which can be interrupted. In other words, it can be completely shut down.
It's not unreasonable why the changes look the way they do, if you look at it logically rather than through a lens of spite and sorc hate. If you're fighting a stam sorc as a DK and can't interrupt and capitalize on it, well, that's a learn to play issue.
The Igneous damage shield on a DD StamDK is non-existant because it's based on max health rather than Stamina. A single light attack is enough to remove it and when it goes so does the mending. Minor Brutality is also irrelevant when StamDK lacks the damage increasing passives on StamSorc. And it gives 3 Ult on activation with a 6 second cooldown. Compare that to StamSorc that gets a flat 15% cost reduction in your Ultimate.
And Dark Deal only gives back one resource and some health lol. It gives back the only resource that matters which is Stamina and it gives a 4K heal per cast on top of it. A few casts of Dark Deal gives back way more resources now than what StamDK will get from using his Ultimate with Battle Road being scaled based on level rather than max resources and a StamSorcs Magicka regens much faster than another Ult will for the DK.
It is easy to avoid Dark Deal being interrupted. StamSorc has the highest mobility in the game. With Hurricane and the Orc passive alone you can easily keep distance to cast. At worst you Streak past them stunning them and then cast it. Then even if you get interrupted it cost you nothing and you can just roll dodge, Streak, whatever and cast it again while the other person lost Stamina keeping up with you and shield bashing that they can't easily get back. Stamina classes have a much harder time interrupting Dark Deal than MagSorcs do with Crushing Shock from 28 meters way.Edited by Twohothardware on May 9, 2017 9:08PM3 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@CyrusArya
Mate the bash being a counter-play is a invalid form of "counter-play" as it currently is on live and even on PTS.
I made a thread a while back pretty much silencing all the counter play arguments regarding dark deal in this thread
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/312912/someone-tell-me-how-do-i-beat-someone-who-does-this#latest
unfortunately my video has been deleted but the comments of what people saw still persist.
I fought a stam sorc rocking meta pvp tremorscale and all he did was dark-deal. He consistently stood their fighting back as much as he could as I would cc him every chance I could get. The unfortunate part is when I bashed him I kept consuming my stamina to interrupt his dark-deal but unfortunately for me HE did not consume any magicka when spamming dark-deal.
Towards the end of the video I attempted to dip but unfortunately since I was out of stamina from bashing so much, I ended up dead.
The counter play for dark deal is for it to consume resources upon usage; When talking about igneous shield at-least have an argument that is solid. Igneous shield gives you a damage shield which is based off your MAX HEALTH, like imagine that in PvP... In PvP when I use igneous shield a light attack can't even protect me from the damage lol.. In its PTS form we lose major mending entirely because a DoT keeps it from being activated as the DoT burns the shield before we can make use of it.
Battle roar is only applicable when you have full ultimate and not every damn second you wanna fire it off, that is not a valid argument to make in comparison to dark deal which is a skill that you can fire off with no real counter play because you are not penalized when you are supposedly 'countered'. On top of that it is based off of the ultimate used as in how much ultimate is used equals how much you get back; with these changes in the PTS we get even less.
Igneous shield is relevant for our sustain because it is the single spam-able non target ability that stam DKs mainly utilize (ofc some Mag DK tanks too). When you compare dark deal which costs what I think is 200 magicka less but provides more stamina at a fixed rate and health like come on. Igneous shield provides major mending on live and that is strong since we're innately a support class there is nothing wrong but in the sustain factor we get 5% of our max stamina for 4.4 or 4.5k stamina (4040 or 4050 I forget). On PTS we get what around 900 or so that is if you're a stam DK... come on now lol..Edited by MaxwellC on May 9, 2017 9:47PM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
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Coined by Maxwell1 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I fought a stam sorc rocking meta pvp tremorscale and all he did was dark-deal. He consistently stood their fighting back as much as he could as I would cc him every chance I could get. The unfortunate part is when I bashed him I kept consuming my stamina to interrupt his dark-deal but unfortunately for me HE did not consume any magicka when spamming dark-deal.
So much this. Go watch good StamSorcs like Fengrush play and see how often he gets interrupted when he does multiple casts of Dark Deal. You expend Stamina just to stay close enough to the Sorc to Interrupt him and then even if you do Interrupt there's nothing to stop him from immediately doing it again since he lost no Magicka and in the meantime your using huge chunks of your Stamina trying to bash. Not to mention you take damage while standing in the middle of his Hurricane.Edited by Twohothardware on May 9, 2017 10:08PM7 -
alexkdd99✭✭✭✭✭
✭Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
Please just stop. The damage shield with Battle Spirit is like 2k, it's basically non-existent. This also means that you don't get mending from it anymore since it will be gone immediately.
The stam return is a joke compared to what DD gives. It costs 4k+ magika and does not even give back that amount of stamina anymore.
Meanwhile DD gives a way better ratio of mag to stam, as well as a bunch of health for some reason. No competent Sorc is going to DD where they can get interrupted. Just streak somewhere and then cast it if you have it.
Any DK would trade these skills in a heartbeat. DD needs actual nerfs.
Increase cast time is an actual nerf. The change can not be construed as anything other than a nerf. Someone else posted it was a fake nerf, lol, really? What is a fake nerf?
A change can be 1 of 3 things, nerf, neutral, or buff. In the case of dark deal, ANY increase in cast time is a nerf. Not a fake nerf, not almost a nerf, but a nerf. Maybe considered a small nerf to some (matter of opinion) but it's still a nerf.
People cried for a nerf and got it, so I guess zos can say they listen to the nerf tears.
I'm not a stam sorc.1 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
Please just stop. The damage shield with Battle Spirit is like 2k, it's basically non-existent. This also means that you don't get mending from it anymore since it will be gone immediately.
The stam return is a joke compared to what DD gives. It costs 4k+ magika and does not even give back that amount of stamina anymore.
Meanwhile DD gives a way better ratio of mag to stam, as well as a bunch of health for some reason. No competent Sorc is going to DD where they can get interrupted. Just streak somewhere and then cast it if you have it.
Any DK would trade these skills in a heartbeat. DD needs actual nerfs.
Increase cast time is an actual nerf. The change can not be construed as anything other than a nerf. Someone else posted it was a fake nerf, lol, really? What is a fake nerf?
A change can be 1 of 3 things, nerf, neutral, or buff. In the case of dark deal, ANY increase in cast time is a nerf. Not a fake nerf, not almost a nerf, but a nerf. Maybe considered a small nerf to some (matter of opinion) but it's still a nerf.
People cried for a nerf and got it, so I guess zos can say they listen to the nerf tears.
I'm not a stam sorc.
Please tell me you are trolling. I rarely see such unintelligent remarks, I do sure hope you are.
ZOS can decrease the stamina you get from dark deal by 1 stamina point. In the case of dark deal, ANY *decrease* in *resource return* is a nerf. Not a fake nerf, not almost a nerf, but a nerf. Maybe considered a small nerf to some (matter of opinion) but it's still a nerf.
^ this is how you soundEdited by Subversus on May 9, 2017 10:56PM4 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
Please just stop. The damage shield with Battle Spirit is like 2k, it's basically non-existent. This also means that you don't get mending from it anymore since it will be gone immediately.
The stam return is a joke compared to what DD gives. It costs 4k+ magika and does not even give back that amount of stamina anymore.
Meanwhile DD gives a way better ratio of mag to stam, as well as a bunch of health for some reason. No competent Sorc is going to DD where they can get interrupted. Just streak somewhere and then cast it if you have it.
Any DK would trade these skills in a heartbeat. DD needs actual nerfs.
Increase cast time is an actual nerf. The change can not be construed as anything other than a nerf. Someone else posted it was a fake nerf, lol, really? What is a fake nerf?
A change can be 1 of 3 things, nerf, neutral, or buff. In the case of dark deal, ANY increase in cast time is a nerf. Not a fake nerf, not almost a nerf, but a nerf. Maybe considered a small nerf to some (matter of opinion) but it's still a nerf.
People cried for a nerf and got it, so I guess zos can say they listen to the nerf tears.
I'm not a stam sorc.
Please tell me you are trolling. I rarely see such unintelligent remarks, I do sure hope you are.
ZOS can decrease the stamina you get from dark deal by 1 stamina point. In the case of dark deal, ANY *decrease* in *resource return* is a nerf. Not a fake nerf, not almost a nerf, but a nerf. Maybe considered a small nerf to some (matter of opinion) but it's still a nerf.
^ this is how you sound
This. The only "nerfs" Sorcs have gotten this entire PTS was 10% reduction to frags and this DD cast time increase. Both of which have a negligible effect on gameplay and don't actually address the problems with Mag/Stam Sorc. Meanwhile, other classes are literally being gutted and losing class-defining strengths. Keep in mind this is in a position where Mag/Stam Sorcs are already god tier in every aspect of the game. The gap between them and everyone else only widens this patch.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~5 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭Dark Deal/Exchange shouldn't cost resources on activation unless all cast abilities do.
The 1.2s cast time now allows attackers to weave bash between skills. Also, bash should refund it's cost when it interrupts someone.
As far as DK resource recovery, you're stuck with getting both magicka, stam and health back on ulti, and about 1k stam with certain abilities (fossilize)
3 other classes get a slow trickle of resource return (about 4k over 20s) from an instant cast, with stamplars getting shatter and melee NBs not getting much in pvp
Sorcs get 4.5k stam return on 3k magicka, with a 1.2s cast time. The magicka cost is not trivial, as just 1 cast per 20s takes 300 regen to maintain. Excessive dark dealing means no streaking. Using streak to get off a DD means using 6k magicka. That's not sustainable
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Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »Dark Deal/Exchange shouldn't cost resources on activation unless all cast abilities do.
All cast abilities don't return huge chunks of stamina and health, in fact Dark Deal is the only one. Many of you haven't spent much time in no CP campaigns which is what Battlegrounds is and Dark Deal is OP as hell when your more resource restricted. There has to be a penalty besides just interrupting which is incredibly hard to do against a decent player thats moving around objects. Either that or the cast time has to be a lot longer so you can't spam Dark Deal or use it when players are on you.
Edited by Twohothardware on May 10, 2017 8:13AM2 -
Ladislao✭✭✭✭✭Stam sorcs with heavy armor? Tremorscale? Fans of Feng Rush?
Oh, my... What a thread. Ah, its another Twohothardware's thread!Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
In contrast, dark deal only gives back one resource and some health. It's an active skill which can be interrupted. In other words, it can be completely shut down.
It's not unreasonable why the changes look the way they do, if you look at it logically rather than through a lens of spite and sorc hate. If you're fighting a stam sorc as a DK and can't interrupt and capitalize on it, well, that's a learn to play issue.
True. But nobody wants to play the game and adapt to changes. Everybody wants to their class to be the best.
I understand that it is necessary to propose changes. This is useful for the game, and for developers. But it needs to be done sparingly. Now it's whining for the sake of whining. Day by day.
If such players were balancing the game, no one would have played it for a long time already. Stop it, please.Everything is viable0 -
Weps✭✭✭✭Stam sorcs with heavy armor? Tremorscale? Fans of Feng Rush?
Oh, my... What a thread. Ah, its another Twohothardware's thread!Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
In contrast, dark deal only gives back one resource and some health. It's an active skill which can be interrupted. In other words, it can be completely shut down.
It's not unreasonable why the changes look the way they do, if you look at it logically rather than through a lens of spite and sorc hate. If you're fighting a stam sorc as a DK and can't interrupt and capitalize on it, well, that's a learn to play issue.
True. But nobody wants to play the game and adapt to changes. Everybody wants to their class to be the best.
I understand that it is necessary to propose changes. This is useful for the game, and for developers. But it needs to be done sparingly. Now it's whining for the sake of whining. Day by day.
If such players were balancing the game, no one would have played it for a long time already. Stop it, please.
Nobody here wants the DK to be the best class, they just want it to be fun, more balanced than right now or at least, you know, playable in open world PvP?
It's not like people are jumping thread to thread to cry because how an AWFUL nerf is a .2 seconds cast time increase on a overperforming skill.
PS4 EU - CP 1000+ - EP Loyal
My EU PreciousesAemon Dk | Imperial Dragonknight Tank
Guari Gaburiefu | PvP Stamplar - Soon PvE tank
Nadija Zenobia | 45k+ PvE Dk - PvP Leaper
Naga del Serpente | High Elf Magicka Sorc PVE DPS - Soon tb 2nd crafter
Azor Ahai V | Dunmer Magicka DK for PVP and Pve
Jabba D'Cat | Khajiit Stamplar
Gennarino Auditore | 7k Weapon damage Bosmer Stamblade / Ganking experimental build
Rina Inbasu | Dunmer Magblade, my bomblade
Zelgadis Greywords | High Elf Magplar
Nachael Jordan | Redguard Stamsorc DPS
Orghuz Diul | StamWar DPS
This-Will-Buff-If | Argonian Warden Trial Off tank
Amelia Tesla Sallilune | Breton Magden PvP DD / PvE healer
Sap-My-Shield | PvP Nooblade, now dead PvE Tank2 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stam sorcs with heavy armor? Tremorscale? Fans of Feng Rush?
Oh, my... What a thread. Ah, its another Twohothardware's thread!Igneous gives a damage shield, mending, minor brutality, stam return, and also ultimate I believe. Battle roar is a passive, just like most of the affects on igneous shield, which gives back all 3 resources at no cost.
In contrast, dark deal only gives back one resource and some health. It's an active skill which can be interrupted. In other words, it can be completely shut down.
It's not unreasonable why the changes look the way they do, if you look at it logically rather than through a lens of spite and sorc hate. If you're fighting a stam sorc as a DK and can't interrupt and capitalize on it, well, that's a learn to play issue.
True. But nobody wants to play the game and adapt to changes. Everybody wants to their class to be the best.
I understand that it is necessary to propose changes. This is useful for the game, and for developers. But it needs to be done sparingly. Now it's whining for the sake of whining. Day by day.
If such players were balancing the game, no one would have played it for a long time already. Stop it, please.
If balance had anything at all do with why people play this game they would of all quit on Day 1. And the reason people are complaining day by day is because nothing is being done to address any of it outside of minor adjustments that will have no impact on the unbalanced stuff while they essentially destroy other classes that were already barely staying competitive. With every update for months now they've just made the already best class Sorc even further ahead and now they're adding a supposed competitive PVP scene in Battlegrounds where balance will be even more key. So if you don't like what you consider to be whining then tough.Edited by Twohothardware on May 10, 2017 9:38AM3 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
And even then - should all classes be equal with sustain? Are they all equal with tanking ability? healing ability? DD ability? Only ZoS can answer that.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Prospero_ESO✭✭✭✭So they increased the cast time for 200ms. Could anybody test whether that makes any difference in a fight ? If i take general server lag plus the network rtt into account i find it hard to believe that this change makes the ability more interruptable.Edited by Prospero_ESO on May 10, 2017 11:03AM0
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Weps✭✭✭✭The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
PS4 EU - CP 1000+ - EP Loyal
My EU PreciousesAemon Dk | Imperial Dragonknight Tank
Guari Gaburiefu | PvP Stamplar - Soon PvE tank
Nadija Zenobia | 45k+ PvE Dk - PvP Leaper
Naga del Serpente | High Elf Magicka Sorc PVE DPS - Soon tb 2nd crafter
Azor Ahai V | Dunmer Magicka DK for PVP and Pve
Jabba D'Cat | Khajiit Stamplar
Gennarino Auditore | 7k Weapon damage Bosmer Stamblade / Ganking experimental build
Rina Inbasu | Dunmer Magblade, my bomblade
Zelgadis Greywords | High Elf Magplar
Nachael Jordan | Redguard Stamsorc DPS
Orghuz Diul | StamWar DPS
This-Will-Buff-If | Argonian Warden Trial Off tank
Amelia Tesla Sallilune | Breton Magden PvP DD / PvE healer
Sap-My-Shield | PvP Nooblade, now dead PvE Tank6 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
That's not looking at anything over a period of time, its juts a list of abilities - Many of which are highly situational and/or don't fit into many standard builds.
Give me an example of sustain for a typical StamDK, StamBlade and Stamsorc setup in combat over a period of, say a minute - taking into account what they are spending their resources on, and what their active and passive skills are returning..
Minalan owes me a beer.
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Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.2 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
That's not looking at anything over a period of time, its juts a list of abilities - Many of which are highly situational and/or don't fit into many standard builds.
Give me an example of sustain for a typical StamDK, StamBlade and Stamsorc setup in combat over a period of, say a minute - taking into account what they are spending their resources on, and what their active and passive skills are returning..
You can't gauge anything in PvP by looking at sustain over a period of a minute. There's a reason why MagSorc is the best class in the game and it's because of the high burst damage and instant shields instead of slower sustained damage and heals over time. It's the same way with StamSorc and Dark Deal. Large bursts of healing and Stamina back in a couple of Dark Deals means the StamSorc can go from being low health and stamina to almost completely reseting the fight whereas the DK can only do that when activating an Ultimate and even that is about to receive a nerf.
In PvP it's the class that can regain large pools of resources the fastest that has the advantage, not the class that gets back the most through small amounts over a period of a minute in a perfect test environment. If someone hits you with resource poisons in a no-cp Campaign that test environment completely changes.Edited by Twohothardware on May 10, 2017 12:31PM7 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
That's not looking at anything over a period of time, its juts a list of abilities - Many of which are highly situational and/or don't fit into many standard builds.
Give me an example of sustain for a typical StamDK, StamBlade and Stamsorc setup in combat over a period of, say a minute - taking into account what they are spending their resources on, and what their active and passive skills are returning..
You can't gauge anything in PvP by looking at sustain over a period of a minute. There's a reason why MagSorc is the best class in the game and it's because of the high burst damage and instant shields instead of slower sustained damage and heals over time. It's the same way with StamSorc and Dark Deal. Large bursts of healing and Stamina back in a couple of Dark Deals means the StamSorc can go from being low health and stamina to almost completely reseting the fight whereas the DK can only do that when activating an Ultimate and even that is about to receive a nerf.
In PvP it's the class that can regain large pools of resources the fastest that has the advantage, not the class that gets back the most through small amounts over a period of a minute in a perfect test environment. If someone hits you with resource poisons in a no-cp Campaign that test environment completely changes.
It is at first, yes - but the point I keep making is that once you've burned up your mag pool (which has pitiful recovery on pts - even 5 BlackRose is only returning around 700 per proc) You can only use dark deal about as often as you do an ulti (obvs depending on ulti and ulti-gain tools ofc - which I note, did NOT get nerfed). They days of stamsorcs running 0 stam and mag regen are gone.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
Arkangeloski✭✭✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »StamSorc is already pretty much the best and easiest PvP class in the game second only to MagSorc. Increasing the cast time of Dark Deal by a whopping 0.2 seconds while destroying the sustain and healing of StamDK with a half a dozen different nerfs to the class on top of the global Stamina nerfs is going to put so much distance between the two classes that DK can no longer compete and will be a class ignored for Battlegrounds. Either undo a bunch of these DK sustain nerfs or apply the same equal treatment to all classes, especially the class that's already sitting on top.
Dark Deal needs to take longer to cast (more than just an extra 0.2s) and it needs a penalty of those resources lost when it is interrupted. Period. Or undo the StamDK nerfs. All of them.
Lol!0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Twohothardware wrote: »I fought a stam sorc rocking meta pvp tremorscale and all he did was dark-deal. He consistently stood their fighting back as much as he could as I would cc him every chance I could get. The unfortunate part is when I bashed him I kept consuming my stamina to interrupt his dark-deal but unfortunately for me HE did not consume any magicka when spamming dark-deal.
So much this. Go watch good StamSorcs like Fengrush play and see how often he gets interrupted when he does multiple casts of Dark Deal. You expend Stamina just to stay close enough to the Sorc to Interrupt him and then even if you do Interrupt there's nothing to stop him from immediately doing it again since he lost no Magicka and in the meantime your using huge chunks of your Stamina trying to bash. Not to mention you take damage while standing in the middle of his Hurricane.
I've never been interrupted using dark deal. Problem is that I think most are ignorant of the fact that it can be.0 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
That's not looking at anything over a period of time, its juts a list of abilities - Many of which are highly situational and/or don't fit into many standard builds.
Give me an example of sustain for a typical StamDK, StamBlade and Stamsorc setup in combat over a period of, say a minute - taking into account what they are spending their resources on, and what their active and passive skills are returning..
10% mag recov, 20% health and stam recov, reduced costs are situational? Good troll post.2 -
Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
That's not looking at anything over a period of time, its juts a list of abilities - Many of which are highly situational and/or don't fit into many standard builds.
Give me an example of sustain for a typical StamDK, StamBlade and Stamsorc setup in combat over a period of, say a minute - taking into account what they are spending their resources on, and what their active and passive skills are returning..
10% mag recov, 20% health and stam recov, reduced costs are situational? Good troll post.
Lol I was about to say.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »The only way to look at sustain.. (note the key word here is SUSTAIN) - is to look at it over a sustained period of time instead of whining that on some classes it comes in bursts with nothing inbetween.
There's no point arguing with these guys - they just don't want to listen. There have been repeated threads where its been constantly and repeatedly explained by numerous people that dark deal isn't what they think it is - with numbers to back it up - and they just give up on that thread and start a new one.
Sorry but this stamsorc's burst sustain has defeated some of their threads, but now I'm out of mag, so I'm no longer able to keep it up.
The only way to look at sustain is to look at it over a sustained period of time
Great, so let's take a look:
And on top of all that you get 15% cost reduction on ultimates and Dark Deal.
Do we really have to look at what DKs, Templars and Nightblades have?
Is this really a conversation?
That's not looking at anything over a period of time, its juts a list of abilities - Many of which are highly situational and/or don't fit into many standard builds.
Give me an example of sustain for a typical StamDK, StamBlade and Stamsorc setup in combat over a period of, say a minute - taking into account what they are spending their resources on, and what their active and passive skills are returning..
10% mag recov, 20% health and stam recov, reduced costs are situational? Good troll post.
Alright, lets go through them..
"20% health and stam recov..
ONLY when slotting a daedric summoning ability. Ok so the ONLY daedric summoning ability available for stamsorc is Bound armaments - which is a toggle and so has to be double-slotted. Is it worth taking up 2 slots? I don't know about you, but I can't come up with a skill setup that fits this in without losing something important like major defile, or an execute...
Magsorc will have daedric summoning abilities slotted - but how much health and stam recov does a typical magsorc run with? This at most gives around 100 extra stam and health regen.
Nightblade gets a flat 15% to all regen all the time..
10% mag recov..
Yes this one is one of the few non-situational and useful recov passives..
Still, Nightblade gets 15%
Empowered Ward
Lol - I can't believe this was even quoted
Rebate..
Restores some mana when your pet dies... guess what? you then have to re-summon that pet - which is a channel that isn't doing anything else useful like dealing damage, defending yourself... and costs MORE than what was returned.
Basically, losing a pet costs you mag and time. This is NOT a net gain. I mean really, they could just make pet summons cost less and do away with the passive.
Ulti cost reduction..
Been plenty of other threads comparing the passive ulti recovery abilities of other classes - showing them to be very comparable. So yeah, sorc gets cheaper ultimates - but NO class-based ulti-generation as a trade-off.
5% cost reduction
5%. Its not huge, is it? I mean yes, its nice to have - but I'm sure the cost of the sorc abilities have been balanced with this in mind.
Basically, what all this boils down to that is useful is 5% cost reduction and 10% mag recov. Now do yourselves a favour and compare it to other classes passives and resource abilities and we'll see if you have a case.
Edited by Biro123 on May 12, 2017 4:15PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1