Who knows the game better? Developers or Players?

Fingolfinn01 · May 2017

I read many detailed post on improving the performance of the game by players. And they really know there stuff. Also I read and watch articles by the developers who have spent hours looking at the empirical data . So who knows the game better?

idk · May 2017

Devs know the code. However, in every game there are players that know how the game actually plays better than the devs.

What I mean by how it actually plays is how changes truly affect even the most minor aspects of the game and how mechanics truly work. I have seen devs in another game make changes due to the findings the theorycrafters discovered because it had a negative impact on the game.

HatchetHaro · May 2017

Until ZOS can actually beat vMoL consistently and can clear vMA on all classes, the players will always be at least 10x better.

WalksonGraves · May 2017

Where is the neither option?

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · May 2017

Players are the drivers, developers are the pit crew.

Zardayne · May 2017

I think both have the ability to know the game very well but players will always kick, scream, and cry when things change and it's not to their liking and do and say anything to keep their elite top of the food chain status. As much as I respect a lot of the players who spend a ton of time testing and creating builds and walkthroughs I feel more compelled to side with the developers that see all of the numbers and data and not just the numbers the cream of the crop are putting out under ideal situations.

Tasear · May 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Where is the neither option?

You are only rngess knows it best

Enslaved · May 2017

I think devs know how stuff work and good players know how to exploit stuff devs didnt forsee on time. But you forgot about ppl who are not neither devs nor players. You know, ones that push dates like 11.11.11.was for Skyrim or 6.6. for Morrowind and similar. Ones that are behind con crates, 100+ euros houses, 50 euros one time offer mounts that by miracle end in con crates. Ones that cut budget on trivial stuff, such as working group finder, better servers, more convincing story and characters, the usuall stuff.

hmsdragonfly · May 2017

wenchmore420b14_ESO · May 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

I think devs know how stuff work and good players know how to exploit stuff devs didnt forsee on time. But you forgot about ppl who are not neither devs nor players. You know, ones that push dates like 11.11.11.was for Skyrim or 6.6. for Morrowind and similar. Ones that are behind con crates, 100+ euros houses, 50 euros one time offer mounts that by miracle end in con crates. Ones that cut budget on trivial stuff, such as working group finder, better servers, more convincing story and characters, the usuall stuff.

Yup. This. The "Suits". The designers and programmers still have to answer to them.

Xexpo · May 2017

Devs know the base mechanics

but players know

https://youtu.be/5-GTFgf6zuc

DaveMoeDee · May 2017

Every individual has a limited perspective.

mtwiggz · May 2017

If the developers worked with the small portion of the community that is non biased and will communicate what is best for the game ESO could be amazing.

Sadly people and businesses make decisions based on statistics not always on what's best.

ZoS should give us, or at least some players, access to some of the data that they get. I believe we could help them bring the game in the direction we all want.

End all be all is that developers know the statistics of some very useful information, but I do believe players know the game far better. Just because someone looks at charts, spreadsheets and writes codes for something doesn't mean they know the way the game actually operates. What looks good on paper isn't always good in practice.

Kay1 · May 2017

Since when Devs knows about their game? I guess it's the first MMO for most of you.

Why do you think there's PTS? Patch Notes released 3 months before they go live? Why they invite veteran players to try their new stuff?

They need feedback that's why you can't expect people that works every day on this game to also play it and know it.

But I have to admit that Gina is a little bit different because she does know about this game and all the broken stuff but I'm not sure if she's a dev.

Darkstorne · May 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

But I have to admit that Gina is a little bit different because she does know about this game and all the broken stuff but I'm not sure if she's a dev.

Wow...

Devs know. They have all the data we don't have access to. They know which classes perform better than others, they know all about the bugs and inconsistencies, they know all about the balance issues. They just don't have the man power to fix everything instantly, and since it's a game in constant development they are consistently creating new unforeseen issues with every update. They triage (prioritise) bugs and work through them as best as they can, but it's like shovelling snow during a blizzard.

The key difference is what devs/pubs want out of a game, and what players want out of a game. That's where this mindset of "devs have no idea what they're doing" comes from, while the devs are happily implementing Crown Crates knowing exactly what they're doing.

Darlgon · May 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

But I have to admit that Gina is a little bit different because she does know about this game and all the broken stuff but I'm not sure if she's a dev.

Gina (and Jessica btw) are Community Managers (if I remember their titles right). It means they see things in the forums that need dev answers and go get an answers, or at least point them to the thread, as well as head moderation of the forums. In that manner, the devs can spend their time "developing" the game, not reading contradictory player feedback and arguments over whether to feed the Tribble or the Sarlaac.

Saturnana · May 2017

When looking at the game as a whole (all facets of it, GUI and back-end, etc.) it is impossible for players to have the same in-depth knowledge and understanding of the game and its mechanics as the developers do.. unless they're part of the development team themselves. Simply having the complete overview of the system, its workings AND knowing the development/future plans, gives way more perspective than any player could ever get by just playing the game.

I work in software development and none of our customers/end-users will ever understand our applications and systems as well as our development team does. Even if we were to release information such as APIs, etc., since I do realize that ESO has given some technical info for add-on purposes.

kyle.wilson · May 2017

ZeniMax seems to cater and program for a casual RP style of gameplay, while the hardcore players with in depth knowledge of the game are end game pvers and pvpers.
That's why they frequently are unable to fix skill bugs, so they just change them to something completely different. (i.e. Bats Ulti)

Biro123 · May 2017

Players only see the surface.
Dev's see both the surface and what's underneath.

Players want what's best for their own personal class/playstyle.
Dev's want what's best for the game as a whole.

Players consist of a mix of intelligent, mature people, unintelligent, immature people, kids, adults and cats.
Dev's consist of professionals in that field who have had to prove their credentials to get that position.

Players only *think* their world will end if the game goes pear-shaped
Dev's only lose their Jobs/income/livelyhoods/homes/cars/reputations...

But what do I know. I'm just a software developer constantly having to sit down and explain to his users exactly why their change requests aren't REALLY what they want. I mean, that's viable where the users are a single department in a single company with a small group of sensible and reasonable spokespeople. But if the business specialists don't realise how stupid some of their requests can be - what hope do we have with a bunch of random gamers (who all have different opinions - but all think they know best - looking at these poll results) ?

ADarklore · May 2017

Here is the problem... game developers develop a game based upon what THEY want, not based upon, "what would a large group of players want". This is why when they discuss they game they always say, "we wanted..." and "we felt..." not, "you players wanted..." and "you players felt..." and if you note even when they do discuss, 'what players want...' it is never actually the truth, it is just a SPIN trying to make their bad decisions sound like it's what players want.

Furthermore, the devs love to complain when players tell them they, "don't actually play the game"... but that's true. How many believe that employees at ZOS go home at night and spend hours playing their game?!? No, they hop on their internal build servers and believe that that equals 'playing the game'... it doesn't. Sure, sometimes at the office they hop on Live for a bit, but it's still WORK-related gaming, and not actually "playing the game" like players do. I mean, when you have one of the leaders actually state that they've never been to an area (Craglorn) on Live server, what does that tell you about how much they play their own game?

Let's also add that many, many decisions are made not based upon what is fun, what players would like, etc... it's based upon MONEY and financial gain. Yes, ZOS is a business and are in it for the money, but sometimes those financial blinders are the reason why MMOs FAIL... because they lose sight of what actually makes the game fun and what attracts players, and instead focus so much on what can bring the quickest cash.

Biro123 · May 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem... game developers develop a game based upon what THEY want, not based upon, "what would a large group of players want". This is why when they discuss they game they always say, "we wanted..." and "we felt..." not, "you players wanted..." and "you players felt..." and if you note even when they do discuss, 'what players want...' it is never actually the truth, it is just a SPIN trying to make their bad decisions sound like it's what players want.

Furthermore, the devs love to complain when players tell them they, "don't actually play the game"... but that's true. How many believe that employees at ZOS go home at night and spend hours playing their game?!? No, they hop on their internal build servers and believe that that equals 'playing the game'... it doesn't. Sure, sometimes at the office they hop on Live for a bit, but it's still WORK-related gaming, and not actually "playing the game" like players do. I mean, when you have one of the leaders actually state that they've never been to an area (Craglorn) on Live server, what does that tell you about how much they play their own game?

Let's also add that many, many decisions are made not based upon what is fun, what players would like, etc... it's based upon MONEY and financial gain. Yes, ZOS is a business and are in it for the money, but sometimes those financial blinders are the reason why MMOs FAIL... because they lose sight of what actually makes the game fun and what attracts players, and instead focus so much on what can bring the quickest cash.

I really don't.. What? Why would they go home and then log into work unless they were doing work - in which case they aren't playing, they are working.... And why would they play a buggy empty server that they've been dealing with all day when they could blow off steam on one that works - where they can find other people to play with (or fight against).. This just doesn't make any sense!

Does a furniture-maker bring his half-finished chairs home to sit on? Or does he sit on the ones that are finished?

notimetocare · May 2017

mtwiggz wrote: »

If the developers worked with the small portion of the community that is non biased and will communicate what is best for the game ESO could be amazing.

Sadly people and businesses make decisions based on statistics not always on what's best.

ZoS should give us, or at least some players, access to some of the data that they get. I believe we could help them bring the game in the direction we all want.

End all be all is that developers know the statistics of some very useful information, but I do believe players know the game far better. Just because someone looks at charts, spreadsheets and writes codes for something doesn't mean they know the way the game actually operates. What looks good on paper isn't always good in practice.

Non-biased is a fallacy

Saturnana · May 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is the problem... game developers develop a game based upon what THEY want, not based upon, "what would a large group of players want". This is why when they discuss they game they always say, "we wanted..." and "we felt..." not, "you players wanted..." and "you players felt..." and if you note even when they do discuss, 'what players want...' it is never actually the truth, it is just a SPIN trying to make their bad decisions sound like it's what players want.

Furthermore, the devs love to complain when players tell them they, "don't actually play the game"... but that's true. How many believe that employees at ZOS go home at night and spend hours playing their game?!? No, they hop on their internal build servers and believe that that equals 'playing the game'... it doesn't. Sure, sometimes at the office they hop on Live for a bit, but it's still WORK-related gaming, and not actually "playing the game" like players do. I mean, when you have one of the leaders actually state that they've never been to an area (Craglorn) on Live server, what does that tell you about how much they play their own game?

Let's also add that many, many decisions are made not based upon what is fun, what players would like, etc... it's based upon MONEY and financial gain. Yes, ZOS is a business and are in it for the money, but sometimes those financial blinders are the reason why MMOs FAIL... because they lose sight of what actually makes the game fun and what attracts players, and instead focus so much on what can bring the quickest cash.

You are operating under the assumption that this game has been created to serve us - the players. But like you say, this is a business. It's not a charity. ZOS has created the game they envisioned. Not the game we wanted to see. It is their product, and they are in no way obligated to take our opinions into account when making development choices (whether or not that's smart, is a different discussion entirely). Business and charity hardly ever mix, if at all, so it makes sense for the company to sometimes choose directions the players don't make sense of, or deem illogical.

And when they take player feedback into account, we need to be aware of the fact that the most visible people and opinions (read: the forums) only make up a small potion of the actual feedback. Meaning that even though something seems illogical for us on the forums, it may actually be what a larger portion of the player-base needs. We have no way of knowing.

So no, I don't think it's a problem that game developers develop what 'they want'. I agree with @Biro123 that players have a skewed view of development because most of them simply don't know what the software delopment process entails.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · May 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

I think both have the ability to know the game very well but players will always kick, scream, and cry when things change and it's not to their liking and do and say anything to keep their elite top of the food chain status. As much as I respect a lot of the players who spend a ton of time testing and creating builds and walkthroughs I feel more compelled to side with the developers that see all of the numbers and data and not just the numbers the cream of the crop are putting out under ideal situations.

Most elite players want more ppl to play at there lvl. Alot of them run progression guilds to help teach ppl. Its more about friendly competition then lording over ppl. Idealy the more equal of skill and knowledge we all are as a community the better imo.

Shadow-Fighter · May 2017

Sausage · May 2017

About 50%, Zen is amateur devs and players are quite noobish too.

kongkim · May 2017

Some people always think they know better.

Its funny buts its always like that.

Prof_Bawbag · May 2017

To be fair to devs when it comes to any given game, millions of potential eyes and brains are always gonna be far more effective than X amount of devs and testers. Devs couldn't possibly meet every eventuality whereas out of the millions who will pass through this game, someone somewhere will do something or put together a chain of events that most of us will never see or do. Hence the reason some bugs, glitches or unintended consequences remain unknown to the majority of players until a handful of people point them out. Then we all think it's a major issue even though we are never likely to encounter the bug.

Some of the glitches I've seen in this game I've wondered what people actually do in game to find them.

There's plenty of things people can lay at the doors of the devs, but there are also a number of unfortunate mechanics that the devs aren't directly responsible for if that makes sense.

RoamingRiverElk · May 2017

I think it's wrong to trust that the devs have the data and thus will be able to make good decisions for the game.

1) The data does not stop them from creating a bad new system. Example: the CP system that has since been and will be heavily modified for reasons that many players already talked about when 1.6 was on the PTS.

2) It is not enough to have basic data. You have to be able to pick and analyze the relevant data. Example: you should not make changes to armor passives based on how much different types of armor are being used by the whole population that has been in Cyrodiil for one reason or another at a certain point (or during a certain time period).

Galwylin · May 2017

I'm leaning towards players for a couple of reasons. One is that some players do things the developers never see coming. You would think they would know the numbers exactly so surprising them should be difficult yet it happens in every game. Another is once you bring players into a game, that's when it really comes alive and that will always bring something unplanned. And of course, players spend more time actually playing because if I'm paying to be entertained, their job is to make that possible not be off playing themselves.

I know we go after the developers for not being able to see how things will work together all of the time and not playing as much as maybe they need to. They still seem like good people who are trying to deliver a fun game for people of all kinds of preferences. I'm sure that's difficult. And by and large, players are just wanting a fun working game. Of course I have no doubt they know it better than I do. But I've learned a lot about it from streamers so there are players that really get into the number crunching which I find mind numbing. So, I guess both is the way to go.

Violynne · May 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

I think devs know how stuff work and good players know how to exploit stuff devs didnt forsee on time. But you forgot about ppl who are not neither devs nor players. You know, ones that push dates like 11.11.11.was for Skyrim or 6.6. for Morrowind and similar. Ones that are behind con crates, 100+ euros houses, 50 euros one time offer mounts that by miracle end in con crates.

This statement pretty much ends the conversation because it's accurate. As a software engineer of over 30 years, every single one of my projects was covered by a budget by someone who A] didn't understand programming and B] never once interacted with customers.

Accountants see numbers. That's it.

What's extremely disappointing is knowing ZoS was formed by developers and gamers, at least of the history I've read.

To see they've walked away from their roots is probably the most disappointing thing. It doesn't just happen with Zenimax. It happens all the time.

Money does really damn stupid things to people.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Who knows the game better? Developers or Players?

Who knows the game better? Developers or Players? 274 votes