Who knows the game better? Developers or Players?

Magıc

Other gaming companies such as Jagex hire players who know their game inside out and have improved their games as well as stopping issues such as bots.

Zos wouldn't dare do that cause once the players see the *** coding and proceed to flame Zos for the *** job they've done, Zos would have their feelings hurt.

Examples are streamers: completely ignoring them on feedback cause they also tell the truth about this game to their viewers, which hurts the feelings of people at Zos.

Troneon

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Sorry those skills are not working right now, it is something we would like to do but NO ETA on that...

Mettaricana

If devs knew the game better we wouldnt have so many nerfs and bugsthey do this to constabtly fight the ayers who kow the game better than them.. i mean shoot look at the add ons they got better features than the actual base game.

Xylphan

*facepalm*

The devs, the devs, the devs. Pretty sure most people on here have never worked at a major game development company before.

The DEVS don't make game design decisions. They IMPLEMENT them. The design decisions come from the game design team using data provided by the analysts (which pour through gigabytes of data, which you don't have). Blaming the devs for what you view as a crappy game adjustments is like blaming your mechanic because your car is a piece of ****.

Games don't fail or succeed because they make YOU happy. They fail or succeed by making the average player happy. If you are not the average player (and most min/maxers, streamers, etc. are NOT), then chances are there are going to be serious disagreements between them and the game team at some point. This happens in every single MMO, usually around the time of major updates/content releases.

Every game has a list of things they would like to do. Unfortunately what they'd like to do and what they have to do to keep the lights on are not always compatible, and they have a hell of a lot more data to back up their decisions than you do.

DocFrost72

Xylphan wrote: »

*facepalm*

The devs, the devs, the devs. Pretty sure most people on here have never worked at a major game development company before.

The DEVS don't make game design decisions. They IMPLEMENT them. The design decisions come from the game design team using data provided by the analysts (which pour through gigabytes of data, which you don't have). Blaming the devs for what you view as a crappy game adjustments is like blaming your mechanic because your car is a piece of ****.

Games don't fail or succeed because they make YOU happy. They fail or succeed by making the average player happy. If you are not the average player (and most min/maxers, streamers, etc. are NOT), then chances are there are going to be serious disagreements between them and the game team at some point. This happens in every single MMO, usually around the time of major updates/content releases.

Every game has a list of things they would like to do. Unfortunately what they'd like to do and what they have to do to keep the lights on are not always compatible, and they have a hell of a lot more data to back up their decisions than you do.

^

Who knows your job better? You or your customers? I'm sure there are many things they would like that are either unecessarily difficult for you to deliver, or negatively impact your product.

alexkdd99

Zardayne wrote: »

I think both have the ability to know the game very well but players will always kick, scream, and cry when things change and it's not to their liking and do and say anything to keep their elite top of the food chain status. As much as I respect a lot of the players who spend a ton of time testing and creating builds and walkthroughs I feel more compelled to side with the developers that see all of the numbers and data and not just the numbers the cream of the crop are putting out under ideal situations.

Even when those same developers can't complete the content they created? It's easy to say the game will be better with x, when you won't be the one trying to complete the content.

Plain numbers don't take into account player actions and different players skill levels. Especially in a game like eso with a very broad skill range.

Seems odd people would make Balance changes when they aren't completing all the content. From all I've seen and heard they aren't very great at their game.

ookami007

Being an actual coder myself, I can tell you for absolute certain that users will know the application 1000x better than developers. Especially with code this size.

And remember.... with an application like ESO, you have at least 1, probably closer to 3-4 teams of coders, 1-2 teams of designers, 1-2 teams of artists/animators/modelers, several project managers, producers, etc.

The people who know the least about the application - producers and project managers - will make the most important decisions. That's why, unless they are VERY talented and experienced, the project inevitably goes WAY off track and unless the lead coders really understand the code from top to bottom and have the force of personality and leeway to enunciate the repercussions of the changes.

Any real programmer can tell you the same.

Rouven

Most sports fans could play a lot better from the couch than the actual athletes on the field ... so, there.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

ookami007 wrote: »

Being an actual coder myself, I can tell you for absolute certain that users will know the application 1000x better than developers. Especially with code this size.

And remember.... with an application like ESO, you have at least 1, probably closer to 3-4 teams of coders, 1-2 teams of designers, 1-2 teams of artists/animators/modelers, several project managers, producers, etc.

The people who know the least about the application - producers and project managers - will make the most important decisions. That's why, unless they are VERY talented and experienced, the project inevitably goes WAY off track and unless the lead coders really understand the code from top to bottom and have the force of personality and leeway to enunciate the repercussions of the changes.

Any real programmer can tell you the same.

I love you.

scorpiodog

Every company has a marketing budget. Part of that budget is market research.

What people don't understand is that the Market research department TELLS the developers what direction to take. Developers just implement what they are told.

They also have a budget. Before they implement an "idea" they have to do an analysis of how much increased revenue it will bring in. So Battlegrounds was a major thing and it had to be associated with a revenue stream - and why not force people who love PvP the most and who have been screaming for it for years to pay for it. Did they think they would just get a whole new mode of play completely free with the $10 base game?

I also wouldn't be at all surprised if they looked at the release schedule for other games that could be competitors, did an analysis, and said "lol, where are they going to go?"

scorpiodog

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Xylphan wrote: »

*facepalm*

The devs, the devs, the devs. Pretty sure most people on here have never worked at a major game development company before.

The DEVS don't make game design decisions. They IMPLEMENT them. The design decisions come from the game design team using data provided by the analysts (which pour through gigabytes of data, which you don't have). Blaming the devs for what you view as a crappy game adjustments is like blaming your mechanic because your car is a piece of ****.

Games don't fail or succeed because they make YOU happy. They fail or succeed by making the average player happy. If you are not the average player (and most min/maxers, streamers, etc. are NOT), then chances are there are going to be serious disagreements between them and the game team at some point. This happens in every single MMO, usually around the time of major updates/content releases.

Every game has a list of things they would like to do. Unfortunately what they'd like to do and what they have to do to keep the lights on are not always compatible, and they have a hell of a lot more data to back up their decisions than you do.

^

Who knows your job better? You or your customers? I'm sure there are many things they would like that are either unecessarily difficult for you to deliver, or negatively impact your product.

My customers are clueless. That is why they hire me. Even after I explain it 10 times some of them still don't understand even the basic concepts. I watch their eyes roll to the back of their heads and they struggle to grasp something they can understand. If they knew as much as me they could do it themselves and I would be homeless.

Eshelmen

That's like asking if a consumer knows more about their car than the manufacturer who made it.
Of course not.

Doctordarkspawn

Biro123 wrote: »

Players only see the surface.
Dev's see both the surface and what's underneath.

Players want what's best for their own personal class/playstyle.
Dev's want what's best for the game as a whole.

Players consist of a mix of intelligent, mature people, unintelligent, immature people, kids, adults and cats.
Dev's consist of professionals in that field who have had to prove their credentials to get that position.

Players only *think* their world will end if the game goes pear-shaped
Dev's only lose their Jobs/income/livelyhoods/homes/cars/reputations...

But what do I know. I'm just a software developer constantly having to sit down and explain to his users exactly why their change requests aren't REALLY what they want. I mean, that's viable where the users are a single department in a single company with a small group of sensible and reasonable spokespeople. But if the business specialists don't realise how stupid some of their requests can be - what hope do we have with a bunch of random gamers (who all have different opinions - but all think they know best - looking at these poll results) ?

Firstly, nice sucking up.

Secondly. When the players can actually tell you what the effect of multiple changes with extensive testing is, and the devs have to ask and end up ignoring that, it's plain the devs have no idea how to run their stuff. Sorry if your sympathy for their position but they dont know what their doing.

Look at the For Honor Devs. The patch notes are allight with stuff like 'it's not fun playing against this' or 'We hate seeing this class weak'. They know. They see. They have a intimate knowledge of their game that comes from playing it. The ESO devs, dont play their own game, and thus their knowledge is nonexistant.

LadyLavina

Magıc wrote: »

Other gaming companies such as Jagex hire players who know their game inside out and have improved their games as well as stopping issues such as bots.

Zos wouldn't dare do that cause once the players see the *** coding and proceed to flame Zos for the *** job they've done, Zos would have their feelings hurt.

Examples are streamers: completely ignoring them on feedback cause they also tell the truth about this game to their viewers, which hurts the feelings of people at Zos.

angry player is angry. please enlighten us about how exactly the code is ***, with annotated example snippets citing exactly which lines they went wrong with and your recommended replacement code.

It's not **** code, it's not a **** job. You're just annoyed and speaking irrationally. The problem is with the various choices that have been made that directly conflict with what a majority of the community wants.

I don't code games, I code apps and websites, but what they've managed to do is amazing even with its many issues and flaws. People just get mad about decisions they don't like/can't stop and decide to start calling it a bad game.

Elsonso

Option 3 is really either 1 or 2, depending on what you think of 1 and 2. It is the equivalent of saying "no idea".

LadyLavina

ZOS certainly knows their game after spending thousands of hours working on it. They also know what good game design is and make decisions that they feel will keep the game fun/running well. They've got a solid team with years of secondary education at the helm. People at ZOS even play (albeit on secret non-zos branded accounts most likely) so it's not like they're coming at it from just the developer side of things. I just wish they'd take what the majority of people want into account more often when making nerf/buff/change decisions.

Eve/CCP has the CSM which is really great and keeps the wishes/concerns of the player base front and center. Obviously CCP doesn't do everything the players want, it would be madness, I'm just pointing out that's a great way to keep your game going in the right direction/keep the playerbase happy (keeping actual players close to the development process). I don't see it happening at this point, but I feel it would be wonderful if ZOS implemented something similar.

Idk, just my thoughts on a lazy Saturday.