Two-Handed weapons are not so much lacking in single target DPS (still 1-2k behind Dual Wield in Morrowind), but are severely outclassed when it comes to cleave and AoE dps. Forceful is a prime candidate to remedy the "cleave" potential; however your suggestion, while a welcome change to what it is currently, still would fail to bring 2h to a competitive choice in any application of PvE.

I believe allowing Forceful to copy a small % (roughly 12% at Rank II) of Melee damage (non Two-Handed damage included) would definitely bring Two-Handed much more in line. This would proc off of your prime "spammable" as well as your Light/Heavy attacks, helping buffer Stamina's awful cleave potential while also giving Two-Handed weapons a place in PvE.

Now to remedy the radial AoE disparity we have a few options;

1. Cleave (the skill, not the phenomena of cleaving targets) is abysmal in terms of performance due to the fact that the Bleed refreshes upon cast, and also does very very low damage (as opposed to the Twin Blade and Blunt/Heavy Weapons passive or Twin Slashes). Allowing the Bleed to stack instead of Refresh (perhaps up to 3 times, and then after 3 stack it no longer refreshes- but further casts during this duration empower the initial hit of Cleave) would be an easy solution/fix.

2. Reworking Berserker Strike. This probably raises some red flags with people, as it is currently very popular in PvP as Onslaught with many toxic "One Shot" builds. Personally, a build that has little to no counter play aside from forcibly slotting Radiant Magelight (which even can't save you sometimes) or many other abilities, has no real place in a game from a balance aspect. Removing Berserker Strike and adding in the classic "Bladestorm" ability that many other RPG's have used would work wonders for both Two-Handed's viability, and Stamina's overall viability. Stamina currently has NO good AoE ultimates (Rend is EXTREMELY small, and often misses point blank or moving targets), and adding one to the weapon skill line that lacks any strong AoE would truly work wonders.

@Gilliamtherogue

Yeah, actually on the terms of skills, I was thinking about a suggestion to have them be a variety based on the type of weapon you have. (and also making cleave the inverse of steel tornado)

Here's what I have so far:
Cleave:
Adds bleeding even if you use a weapon such as a blunt stick? remove the bleed effect, place it on the axe version. instead increases damage by up to 100% based on each percentage of their health. (the inverse of whirlwind)

Greatsword: No longer conal, now a radius of 7m
Greataxe: Adds a [y] damage bleed over 2 seconds.
Warhammer: Snares enemies, and knocks off-balance targets down.

Still probing Uppercut and Berserker Strike:

Berserker Strike:
Greatsword: Deals 50% damage to nearby targets. (smaller radius than Forceful passive)
Greataxe: Deals the same damage again over the duration (bleed)
Warhammer: Reduces target Physical resistance by 5280 for the duration

Uppercut:
Greatsword: This ability will now damage enemies for 50% of the damage in a line for the range as well (does not stack on primary target, does not apply any additional effects)
Greataxe: Increases damage done by 10%
Warhammer: Sets target off-balance

@Ruben

What if..... what if Warhammer light/heavy attacks did increased damage based on the mitigation levels of the enemy?

I.E the enemy has 50% mitigation, so the light/heavy attacks deal up to 50% more damage.

@Gilliamtherogue

True, but then why doesn't uppercut apply a bleed as well?

While yes, blunt instruments are great at dealing tissue damage, clean cuts are more likely to cut deeply through multiple veins and get at arteries.

in the end it's a design choice.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue
hmm. I do like that idea of the bleed effect empowering the cleave (cause the hp damage is rather unimaginative since the DW already has it). How much should it empower it though?

Edit: Thoughts on that

if it doubles it then it'd be better than the DW whirlwind up till the enemy is at 25% hp. Though that would be at the cost of requiring additional positioning. Then you also have to consider that the bleed itself would be adding additional damage.

Sooo...

it seems that the bleed damage is roughly equal to 16.8% of the tooltip value (if based on a per second basis)

If each successful application increases the bleed damage by the original amount, then a second application would be at 33.7% tooltip, a third at 50% of the tooltip value (per second, but bleeds proc every two seconds, so the bleed would be 100% tooltip per tick at third application).

So at the third application the bleed damage if tripled would be roughly equal to the tooltip value every two seconds.

Actually. with that you wouldn't need to include any extra damage to the ability after the third application.

Edit: no, only if it was 100% on a per second basis.

So, then how much to actually empower it by? since you've got tooltip 50% everysecond from the bleed, then it should increase the damage by about... 50%.

So stacking up to triple the bleed damage from consecutive hits. then once the stack is reached, increase the initial hit of cleave by 50%?

Edit again: but then that would make the ability more powerful than the DW whirlwind up till the enemy is at or below 24% hp. I don't think that should be the case.

If it was 50% more effective just because of the stacking bleed, then it would mean the 2H AoE would be better than the DW whirlwind after the 3rd application and then until the enemy reached 50% hp. afterwards the DW AoE would be better.

So, perhaps just let the Bleed stack, don't empower the cleave. you could empower it anyway by weaving in wrecking blow attacks.

KK, so this is my thought after thinking about it for a while:

Cleave:
Deals [x] damage in a cone. applies a bleed for [y] damage over 10 seconds. Hitting an enemy that is already bleeding from this ability increases the bleed damage by +100% (stacks up to +200%) and refreshes the duration. Making this skill better than DW Whirlwind until the target reaches 50% hp.

greatsword: Ability is now radial rather than conal.
greataxe: Increases the Bleed damage by 10% (effectively making its better than whirlwind until the target is at 40% health).
warhammer: Snares enemies and knocks down off-balance enemies.

I bolded some stuff I'll be responding to in your spoiler, make sure to open it.

1; The empower would only be about 20% at Max Rank. This incentives the ability to multi cast Carve in large AoE situations where you have to anyways, without forcing the player to feel like the only way to use the ability is to spam cast it. In single target application you'd likely just apply Carve once every 8s, to get the ramping bleed damage, instead of treating Carve as a spammable for ST.

2; Keep in mind this would only be in CLEAVE situations. This suggestion would bring the damage capability of Steel Tornado and Carve in line; but would be highly situational. Steel Tornado covers a 9m RADIUS, while Carve only covers a 7m x 8m(?) Conal. This means even if Carve's tooltip is higher, Steel Tornado still has bonus advantages of hitting more spread out targets. It would become a situational choice that played into special builds or roles; aka diversity. Also don't forget that Dual Wield has Ruffian, which is an additional 15% bonus!

3; While I'd love to see each ability change based on what weapon was in use, if this were to happen we'd need a major overhaul to all weapon lines to follow suit. This is a MASSIVE undertaking and would require more balancing, which we're already struggling with in the Morrowind PTS. I think for now it would be wise to keep it the same skill based on weapon types used, and revisit the idea later.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue
hmm. I do like that idea of the bleed effect empowering the cleave (cause the hp damage is rather unimaginative since the DW already has it). How much should it empower it though?

Edit: Thoughts on that

if it doubles it then it'd be better than the DW whirlwind up till the enemy is at 25% hp. Though that would be at the cost of requiring additional positioning. Then you also have to consider that the bleed itself would be adding additional damage.

Sooo...

it seems that the bleed damage is roughly equal to 16.8% of the tooltip value (if based on a per second basis)

If each successful application increases the bleed damage by the original amount, then a second application would be at 33.7% tooltip, a third at 50% of the tooltip value (per second, but bleeds proc every two seconds, so the bleed would be 100% tooltip per tick at third application).

So at the third application the bleed damage if tripled would be roughly equal to the tooltip value every two seconds.

Actually. with that you wouldn't need to include any extra damage to the ability after the third application.

Edit: no, only if it was 100% on a per second basis.

So, then how much to actually empower it by? since you've got tooltip 50% everysecond from the bleed, then it should increase the damage by about... 50%.

So stacking up to triple the bleed damage from consecutive hits. then once the stack is reached, increase the initial hit of cleave by 50%?

Edit again: but then that would make the ability more powerful than the DW whirlwind up till the enemy is at or below 24% hp. I don't think that should be the case.

If it was 50% more effective just because of the stacking bleed, then it would mean the 2H AoE would be better than the DW whirlwind after the 3rd application and then until the enemy reached 50% hp. afterwards the DW AoE would be better.

So, perhaps just let the Bleed stack, don't empower the cleave. you could empower it anyway by weaving in wrecking blow attacks.

KK, so this is my thought after thinking about it for a while:

Cleave:
Deals [x] damage in a cone. applies a bleed for [y] damage over 10 seconds. Hitting an enemy that is already bleeding from this ability increases the bleed damage by +100% (stacks up to +200%) and refreshes the duration. Making this skill better than DW Whirlwind until the target reaches 50% hp.

greatsword: Ability is now radial rather than conal.
greataxe: Increases the Bleed damage by 10% (effectively making its better than whirlwind until the target is at 40% health).
warhammer: Snares enemies and knocks down off-balance enemies.

I bolded some stuff I'll be responding to in your spoiler, make sure to open it.

1; The empower would only be about 20% at Max Rank. This incentives the ability to multi cast Carve in large AoE situations where you have to anyways, without forcing the player to feel like the only way to use the ability is to spam cast it. In single target application you'd likely just apply Carve once every 8s, to get the ramping bleed damage, instead of treating Carve as a spammable for ST.

2; Keep in mind this would only be in CLEAVE situations. This suggestion would bring the damage capability of Steel Tornado and Carve in line; but would be highly situational. Steel Tornado covers a 9m RADIUS, while Carve only covers a 7m x 8m(?) Conal. This means even if Carve's tooltip is higher, Steel Tornado still has bonus advantages of hitting more spread out targets. It would become a situational choice that played into special builds or roles; aka diversity. Also don't forget that Dual Wield has Ruffian, which is an additional 15% bonus!

3; While I'd love to see each ability change based on what weapon was in use, if this were to happen we'd need a major overhaul to all weapon lines to follow suit. This is a MASSIVE undertaking and would require more balancing, which we're already struggling with in the Morrowind PTS. I think for now it would be wise to keep it the same skill based on weapon types used, and revisit the idea later.

Hmm, yeah. though then am I under the assumption that you're in agreement that reusing cleave should stack, and refresh the bleed duration? If it didn't refresh the duration, you'd end up having the spam it thrice in order to get the maximum stack in a single target scenario. And, building upon this, then if you have an 8 second window during which to apply your other skills, and weave wrecking blow and bar swapping (etc) it would differentiate 2H playstyle in having in essence two spammables, the DoT conal cleave and uppercut/morphs that work together. Whereas DW focuses on DoT application from Rend, Twin Slashes, and Flurry.
Urrgh. this needs a hell of a lot more thought in the actual damage numbers...

I had originally stated the idea of allowing recasting of Cleave to add a "stack" of the DoT and retaining the refresh of the DoT, up to 3 times. After the 3rd stack, recasting Carve would not refresh the bleed, but instead become "empowered" dealing ~20% bonus initial hit damage. Once the duration of the 3rd stack of Bleed falls off, the mechanic would reset.

Two Handed still fails to get up to par with Dual Wield in terms of accessible skills in PvE though. Dual Wield has no forms of pure utility, Blade Cloak does damage and offers mitigation. Two Handed wastes this with Rally and Crit Rush, both which are essential to 2h's power in PvP, but ultimately remain dead weight in PvE after the Major/Minor Buff system.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

Yeah, I feel ya. I personally hate crit rush. wish that gap closers were non-existent in the weapon skill line.

And on the topic of your idea for the 3rd stack not being refreshed, that would make it an interesting mechanic. It certainly wouldn't be consistent damage. (perhaps a welcome change).

It would be something that has to be managed, and would have the caster weighing if they want extra burst and force casting x3 to get it, or if they want steady but growing damage by recasting as it's fading. This game could sorely use some "stack based" gameplay that had you manage stacks of buffs or debuffs. The first thing we've ever seen of the sort is the Fletcher Fly from the Warden, which is great to see.