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Today's ESO Live
Jamascus
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I've made it through about 25 minutes so far. RIch and Eric are explaining that they want their idea of balancing skills to allow a seamless transition from PVE to PVP. Their logic is entirely flawed. The two styles of gameplay are so different that they will not be able to achieve this. For instance, npc's will just stand their and let you wail on them. Most don't have shields and they have a set rotation that can be studied, mapped out and counted on to act the same way all the time. PVE combat is even different in Cyrodiil than outside of it. The npc's in Cyrodiil seem to have negate in every slot on their bars instead of an entire rotation and they have more health.
There will always be a learning curve when transferring from PVE to PVP and vice versa. If they really wanted to help new players they would have the siege tutorial quest teach players the appropriate siege weapons for the appropriate situation. For instance, don't use fire ballistae to siege keep walls. Regular ballistae do twice as much damage. Fire ballistae are anti-personnel. Or that you will repair a wall faster with a restoration staff equipped than with other weapons.
The rework to Luminous shards is certainly better than what is currently on the test server, so bravo for realizing how terrible it currently is. I'm going to try to stomach the rest of ESO live but Rich is awful smug and Eric doesn't realize his own bias towards stamina so it will be tough.
Edited by Jamascus on April 29, 2017 3:23AM There will always be a learning curve when transferring from PVE to PVP and vice versa. If they really wanted to help new players they would have the siege tutorial quest teach players the appropriate siege weapons for the appropriate situation. For instance, don't use fire ballistae to siege keep walls. Regular ballistae do twice as much damage. Fire ballistae are anti-personnel. Or that you will repair a wall faster with a restoration staff equipped than with other weapons.
The rework to Luminous shards is certainly better than what is currently on the test server, so bravo for realizing how terrible it currently is. I'm going to try to stomach the rest of ESO live but Rich is awful smug and Eric doesn't realize his own bias towards stamina so it will be tough.
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flguy147ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭They actually have to balance it 3 different ways with the same skills. NO CP BGs and Campaign, CP Campaign and PVE. What makes it even harder is to balance all 3 of those with 200 CP players and 600 CP characters. It is a nightmare system to balance. That is one of the biggest reason i have hated the whole CP system the entire time. You could take the best people in the industry in regards to balancing and they couldnt come close to balancing under the current system within ESO.0
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Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone said that later they pretty much explain this as "balancing PVE and PVP separately would be too much work" so we're just gonna do this instead.
Your tax dollars at work.
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Jamascus✭✭✭✭flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »They actually have to balance it 3 different ways with the same skills. NO CP BGs and Campaign, CP Campaign and PVE. What makes it even harder is to balance all 3 of those with 200 CP players and 600 CP characters. It is a nightmare system to balance. That is one of the biggest reason i have hated the whole CP system the entire time. You could take the best people in the industry in regards to balancing and they couldnt come close to balancing under the current system within ESO.
Yep, their idea of balance is a myth.3 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Posted this in the wrong thread...
It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.
If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.
They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.
Edited by Phinix1 on April 29, 2017 3:28AM4 -
silky_soft✭✭✭✭✭
✭flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »They actually have to balance it 3 different ways with the same skills. NO CP BGs and Campaign, CP Campaign and PVE. What makes it even harder is to balance all 3 of those with 200 CP players and 600 CP characters. It is a nightmare system to balance. That is one of the biggest reason i have hated the whole CP system the entire time. You could take the best people in the industry in regards to balancing and they couldnt come close to balancing under the current system within ESO.
Yep, their idea of balance is a myth.
They could use battlespirit(aka thingy that balances pvp different to pve), which already gives you free hp/halves your damage/halves your healing+shields.
But, eh, chuck it in the too hard basket.This recent update has made me sad. Sad for the game. Sad for the community. Sad to pay whatever it is now. I want the previous eso back.4 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »They actually have to balance it 3 different ways with the same skills. NO CP BGs and Campaign, CP Campaign and PVE. What makes it even harder is to balance all 3 of those with 200 CP players and 600 CP characters. It is a nightmare system to balance. That is one of the biggest reason i have hated the whole CP system the entire time. You could take the best people in the industry in regards to balancing and they couldnt come close to balancing under the current system within ESO.
and wont it just become MORE work andMORE imbalance and things to think on the more they add stuff and more classes and stuff to the game ?
ijs (serious question)0 -
Jamascus✭✭✭✭Posted this in the wrong thread...
It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.
If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.
They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.
They even said in today's Live that we the player don't want small incremental changes because we don't want to have to relearn our abilities and regrind sets every time they make a little change. What they fail to understand is that you make those incremental changes on the test server to find out what works and what doesn't and then implement what actually works.3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Posted this in the wrong thread...
It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.
If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.
They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.
They even said in today's Live that we the player don't want small incremental changes because we don't want to have to relearn our abilities and regrind sets every time they make a little change. What they fail to understand is that you make those incremental changes on the test server to find out what works and what doesn't and then implement what actually works.
right!
but not only that, shouldn't that be what the beta was for ?
so we are going to be changing constantly to the point that i need change my gear and whole entire build every month for rest of our time in eso ?
that's just rediculas!
i should be able to stay with my build for atleast 1 year, let me atleast get bored with it.
and at very least allow it to be viable and let me keep that build for as long as i like.
things don't need to be changing this drastically!2 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I wish I could remember which eso live it was. but It was Gina I think who said something along the lines of, we are scared to change skills because we don't know what will happen...
I couldn't stop laughing and crying at the same time. There is such a thing as to much honesty.6 -
Fingolfinn01✭✭✭✭going back to basic's, learning the boss mechanic and avoid standing in the poo, is much better than just burn the boss with total disregard for its abilities.PC-NA1 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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He didn't look at all "smug" to me, but I agree with the rest of your post. I just don't see how they can balance PvP and PvE without one of them suffering. If there is a way to balance them separately and make everybody happy, they need to do it for the health of the game.I'm going to try to stomach the rest of ESO live but Rich is awful smug and Eric doesn't realize his own bias towards stamina so it will be tough.
Edited by SydneyGrey on April 29, 2017 5:26AM1 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What is interesting is that ESO is following almost exactly the same failed path that DCUO had done... but you look over at DCUO now and they are going back and doing what they should have done from the very beginning and actually reworking all the powers and balancing them the RIGHT way. It is a very long and drawn out process but at least they seem committed to righting the wrongs and doing a better job this time around. At ESO, they are making the same exact mistakes DCUO did, and no doubt in another year or two they'll say the exact same thing, "Sorry, but we were lazy and made a lot of mistakes, now we are going back and completely redoing all the classes the RIGHT way." Well, at least we can HOPE this will happen. I know over at DCUO another one of the major steps in the right direction was hiring NEW devs to help them do things the right way.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~3 -
Jamascus✭✭✭✭Someone said that later they pretty much explain this as "balancing PVE and PVP separately would be too much work" so we're just gonna do this instead.
Your tax dollars at work.
Yeah, they explained that when you have to track and study ability performance in both pvp and pve that it makes fixing them take 3-4 times longer because the chance to make a mistake is exponentially larger. It's funny, other games devs have figured out how to do it....4 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can balance them both together if you balance the game for PvP and then just adjust the health and damage NPCs do in PvE the game would be pretty balanced and competitive.2 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm glad we have all these ESO development experts on the forums, without them ZOS wouldn't know what the correct direction to take our or how to make an MMO.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."3 -
Jamascus✭✭✭✭I'm glad we have all these ESO development experts on the forums, without them ZOS wouldn't know what the correct direction to take our or how to make an MMO.
I'm simply pointing out that their vision for the game needs tri-focals. It's up to them if they think what I'm saying is constructive. They can't fix a problem if they don't know it exists.Edited by Jamascus on April 29, 2017 3:02PM1 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
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https://youtu.be/s_8KR-n2fBQ
I dedicate that Hall and Oates song to the balance and combat team(s) of ESO. Lol.
But on a serious note, it was very odd hearing that from them. I mean... So because it'd be a bit of extra work to go a long way, and ease numerous tensions on both PvE and PvP players are having, they go about doing things the 'easy' way. I don't know if @ZOS_RichLambert and @Wrobel are aware of this, but if they'd balance PvE and PvP seperately — this would result in PvE'ers not getting weaker over time. And feeling hit, all due to something that appears to be overperforming in PvP.
Want your player base to stop complaining about and at you? Think about how things will effect the game in the long run, and base your decisions off of that. This is the only game I've played, where I get progressively weaker patch after patch. Lol. And yet, the content they bring forward gets harder and harder.5 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The concern that I have about what @ZOS_RichLambert was saying about ZOS wanting players to play both PvE and PvP with a unifying game system....
I can personally say that I honestly do not like the PvP experience. You could totally remove PvP altogether from the game and I would not miss it one bit. PvP doesn't make the game feel like Elder Scrolls. It's just an MMO thing. I can tolerate it to get shards or quests or whatever done. But there's a difference between doing something because you actually enjoy it and doing something just to get it done and over with so you can get the achievements for it.
I think the developers at ZOS should take into consideration that there are players who are concerned that adjustments that are made to balance out PvP will have a negative impact on our enjoyment of the PvE aspect of the game.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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Should they not also consider players like me who play and enjoy both and don't want to have to have my skills doing two different things between modes.I think the developers at ZOS should take into consideration that there are players who are concerned that adjustments that are made to balance out PvP will have a negative impact on our enjoyment of the PvE aspect of the game.
If you only play one style sure I can see why you would be annoyed, but if you're doing both it's nice to finally have a game which fluently transfers.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The concern that I have about what @ZOS_RichLambert was saying about ZOS wanting players to play both PvE and PvP with a unifying game system....
I can personally say that I honestly do not like the PvP experience. You could totally remove PvP altogether from the game and I would not miss it one bit. PvP doesn't make the game feel like Elder Scrolls. It's just an MMO thing. I can tolerate it to get shards or quests or whatever done. But there's a difference between doing something because you actually enjoy it and doing something just to get it done and over with so you can get the achievements for it.
I think the developers at ZOS should take into consideration that there are players who are concerned that adjustments that are made to balance out PvP will have a negative impact on our enjoyment of the PvE aspect of the game.
Agreed. And the sad thing is, I use to be a heavy PvP'er. I'll never forget the first time I set foot in Cyrodiil, and it was incredible. It was HUGE zerg on zerg warfare, with little to no lag or performance issues at all. This was eons ago, but the point still remains. It was amazing. Things were smooth, and there was action damn near everywhere. I had never seen that many people going at it at a single location. I'm sure you can find videos on YouTube of the old ESO's PVP. And let tell you, it was truly a sight to behold.
Nowadays...? I can't stand PVP. Hate it. In fact, I'm just waiting for it to get removed entirely from the game. It'd do away with a lot of: Toxic players, sever strain, balance complaints (to an extent), complaints about skills being locked behind PVP, etc. Thinking more on it now, it really should just be removed from the game.1 -
Jamascus✭✭✭✭
Should they not also consider players like me who play and enjoy both and don't want to have to have my skills doing two different things between modes.I think the developers at ZOS should take into consideration that there are players who are concerned that adjustments that are made to balance out PvP will have a negative impact on our enjoyment of the PvE aspect of the game.
If you only play one style sure I can see why you would be annoyed, but if you're doing both it's nice to finally have a game which fluently transfers.
Then they need to make all npc's, including mudcrabs, able to block cc attempts, because in pvp you're going to be disappointed that a player doesn't get cc'd when they block it or that the player attempts to leave that cc, among other things.2 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭The concern that I have about what @ZOS_RichLambert was saying about ZOS wanting players to play both PvE and PvP with a unifying game system....
That is such a pipe dream. Every game has had to face the fact that not only are they different play styles but what works in PvE cannot be allowed to work the same way in PvP. There is no player that is going to wipe twelve people the way a boss could in a single hit. How do you unify that?
Besides all that, his statements came across as the expectation is for all players to do both. That's why PvPers keep having to do PvE. While some PvP skills are nice to have, they aren't necessary. Still, the Alliance war skills should be where the balancing between both is found. Its a whole skill line that you learn only by PvPing. Nerf skills in PvP and have these skills take their power in that setting. That way you can have some unity of styles but have specific ways to balance both.
In the whole thing, I got the impression that you had a chance to show Wrobel why something wasn't working as he envisioned it and he would understand what you were talking about. Rich, on the other hand, came across as someone who disregards everything that disagrees with how he thinks things work. No example, no data, no nothing is going to persuade him that his approach isn't working. Especially with that continued statement that ESO has always been about resource management.
No, it hasn't. It hasn't because the creative director trivialized it with all these things added. It matters at the beginning when you don't have enough resources but with everything that gets added, you no longer have to worry so much with it. Either they didn't know what the were doing before or they are changing it to matter more. To keep saying that its always matter reminds me of the whole ESO+ and Morrowind debate where once ESO+ covered all future DLCS but if you call it a chapter, it doesn't. It comes across as dishonest. People can deal with honesty but its maddening to have someone tell you the past is completely different than it actually was.
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Rinmaethodain✭✭✭✭✭
✭Someone said that later they pretty much explain this as "balancing PVE and PVP separately would be too much work" so we're just gonna do this instead.
Your tax dollars at work.
"balancing PVE and PVP separately would be too much work" - nerfing and buffing same things over and over again in last year or even longer back and forth is also too much work, but even more, its wasted work because it doesent accomplish anything.
The sooner ZOS gives up on this illusion of achieving PVP and PVE balance at the same time the sooner they can stop wasting their time on buffing and nerfing same things over and over again and put it into reworking PVP as a separate addition to ESO.
Once its done, ESO will enter into completely different world of balance, where PVP can be adjusted separately from PVE by various means:
- adjust tooltip values of abilities separately for PVP and PVE
- adjust CP curves and caps separately for PVP and PVE
- adjust set stats separately for PVP and PVE
- adjust abilities and major/minor buffs separately for PVP and PVE
- create sets strictly to use in PVP and strictly for use in PVE
And inb4 the argument "no please, i dont want to go PVP and suddenly suck becase its different than PVE" - every serious PVX player already have multiple gear sets, some of them for PVP and others for PVE - nothing will change here, people will still use different gear sets to switch between PVP and PVE but this time with peace of mind that PVP disputes wont affect their PVE builds.
If ZOS insist on pretending they can achieve PVP and PVE balance at the same time, this will be long term death of ESO - not today, not tommorow, but somewhere in not so distant future.
These two enviroments, PVE and PVP are diametrally different. In one we fight players with 20-30k HP dealing 5k-20k damage while in other we fight targets with 100 to milions of HP that deal up to 100k of damage.
Trying to balance it with changes affecting both at the same time is like trying to stabilise and Inverted Pendulum where on one end there is PVP balance and on another PVE balance and in the unachievable middle we have mythical "global balance".
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler2 -
NecroEnzo✭✭✭Posted this in the wrong thread...
It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.
If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.
They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.
Part of the problem with adjusting things is: so many things are intertwined. If you follow a thread, you might change the entire pattern. If they make a change to a set, and cut those builds out of the pvp environment, it results in crap like: nerf to desert rose, sorcs bringing back the lich set. They're trying to stay ahead of the builders.
Yes, they're doing an awful job at it; I've got 3-4 builds that will spit in the face of their regen nerf, and rightly so. An inevitable loss scenario where 1vxing suffers more than it already has, is just more taking away from the end PvP goal. I don't know if the devs have to live around where ZoS is headquartered in Maryland but /shurg; don't expect too much brilliance even if they work from home. From my experience in game design, it's not who has the most passion or the most talent that gets a spot, it's who smooches the best cheeks.
What we need are real developers, who team up with real gamers to get the feedback and direction they clearly need, and LESS FAKE NEWS.
Seriously though, that live-stream was a hoot. How can these folks be so smug when they have to keep patching all the holes we find? The best part is, whenever they nerf something after the fact, it's more proof that they failed to realize what was going to happen.Edited by NecroEnzo on April 29, 2017 4:23PM3 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Eh...
You certainly can balance pve and pvp at the same time with the same system. It's been done before, DAOC didn't have different stats for pve and pvp, WOW doesn't have abilities with different tooltips for pvp and pve.
Overall they have left us with balanced pvp post patches. Here is the problem: Balancing what currently is, isn't always the same as balancing what will be when the throng of class jumping fotm types all jump.0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm glad we have all these ESO development experts on the forums, without them ZOS wouldn't know what the correct direction to take our or how to make an MMO.
No... it's just that many of us have played other MMOs and have seen them FAIL by doing the exact same things ZOS is doing. “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”. This is exactly what ZOS is doing... doing the same things that other MMOs have tried and failed at but expecting a different result.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~6 -
Rainwhisper✭✭✭✭✭This strikes me as ridiculous.
How many players actually expect to seamlessly transition between PvE and PvP? Heck, how many players do both at a high enough level that balancing changes affect them?
This comes up in every...single...MMO, and it's exhausting. I don't mind there being PvP as an option in an MMO. I'm glad for the additional income those players bring to support the game.
But the playstyles and expectations are totally different, and should be developed accordingly, otherwise no one is happy.1
