Today's ESO Live

Korah_Eaglecry

Jamascus wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Posted this in the wrong thread...

It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.

If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.

They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.

They even said in today's Live that we the player don't want small incremental changes because we don't want to have to relearn our abilities and regrind sets every time they make a little change. What they fail to understand is that you make those incremental changes on the test server to find out what works and what doesn't and then implement what actually works.

Except thats exactly what theyre doing in these major updates. Instead of it being small changes we can adjust to over time its these whopping changes that send us being thrown from one side of the ship to the next like we're in a storm of nerfs and changes.

Ch4mpTW

ADarklore wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I'm glad we have all these ESO development experts on the forums, without them ZOS wouldn't know what the correct direction to take our or how to make an MMO.

No... it's just that many of us have played other MMOs and have seen them FAIL by doing the exact same things ZOS is doing. “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”. This is exactly what ZOS is doing... doing the same things that other MMOs have tried and failed at but expecting a different result.

It never works. It literally NEVER works. And you'd think that ZOS wouldbe learned from other people's mistakes. Or better yet, learn from their current mistake of continuing to do so. It's called insanity to do the same thing over and over again, and yet expect different results. Madness.

Galwylin

Exactly. Must every MMO believe they have this magic bullet so down this road we go again. Someone mentioned WoW. Yes, things are different between the two there also. You wouldn't go from a dungeon straight to a battleground in the same gear because gear works differently in each. But no, not ESO. It can do everything all at once and fix dinner. Marvelous. Its the same promise that has been broken by almost every other MMO ever to have existed.

Even if this fantasy were true, isn't there a trait that addresses other players? How'd that get in there?

sadownik

@vyndral13preub18_ESO oh mate it was much worse i think. Wasnt it B. Wheeler saying they will allow entering bgs with full ulti because they are afraid to change anything with it? I was surprised how unnoticed that went.

kongkim

Galwylin wrote: »

Exactly. Must every MMO believe they have this magic bullet so down this road we go again. Someone mentioned WoW. Yes, things are different between the two there also. You wouldn't go from a dungeon straight to a battleground in the same gear because gear works differently in each. But no, not ESO. It can do everything all at once and fix dinner. Marvelous. Its the same promise that has been broken by almost every other MMO ever to have existed.

Even if this fantasy were true, isn't there a trait that addresses other players? How'd that get in there?

Do you really thing most players change gear and skills when they play pve and pvp? maybe all non Casual players do. But what are there most of in the game?

Darnathian

ADarklore wrote: »

What is interesting is that ESO is following almost exactly the same failed path that DCUO had done... but you look over at DCUO now and they are going back and doing what they should have done from the very beginning and actually reworking all the powers and balancing them the RIGHT way. It is a very long and drawn out process but at least they seem committed to righting the wrongs and doing a better job this time around. At ESO, they are making the same exact mistakes DCUO did, and no doubt in another year or two they'll say the exact same thing, "Sorry, but we were lazy and made a lot of mistakes, now we are going back and completely redoing all the classes the RIGHT way." Well, at least we can HOPE this will happen. I know over at DCUO another one of the major steps in the right direction was hiring NEW devs to help them do things the right way.

Thats what i dont understand. After all the players that have left and continue to leave. Having to go f2p due to loss of monthly memberships. How have there not been firings.

Phinix1

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Posted this in the wrong thread...

It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.

If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.

They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.

They even said in today's Live that we the player don't want small incremental changes because we don't want to have to relearn our abilities and regrind sets every time they make a little change. What they fail to understand is that you make those incremental changes on the test server to find out what works and what doesn't and then implement what actually works.

Except thats exactly what theyre doing in these major updates. Instead of it being small changes we can adjust to over time its these whopping changes that send us being thrown from one side of the ship to the next like we're in a storm of nerfs and changes.

At least if they balanced PVE and PVP separately then when they came down with these massive nerfs and sweeping changes, however often, it would only affect HALF the play style at a time instead of like it is now. Not a solution but still better than what we have, especially since most of the adverse effects (those requiring gear or build changes) come from them swinging (or lurching) from one camp to the other with the balance. This time PVP gets the hammer, this time PVE...

I think balancing separately would eliminate much of the need to make heavy handed changes all at once for damage control, and result in LESS radical impact on the game overall; precisely what they claim they are trying to avoid by keeping things the way they are, which is pretty silly if you think about it.

I personally find it a little disappointing they would actually put it on US the player, that "the players don't want us to balance PVP and PVE separate or do smaller changes more frequently because they would have to change all their gear all the time." Come on guys seriously, WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY!

@ZOS_RichLambert , we are trying to help you guys to realize that is how it is NOW. Every time you make these massive over-compensating changes because of this avoidance of separate PVE/PVP balancing; THAT is what causes gear to get replaced, not small more frequent balance changes to one or the other. That is what causes you to get overwhelmed. You are creating the very problem you claim to want to avoid.

Small incremental changes more often to PVE or PVP independently are LESS likely to result in entire gear or build changes, NOT MORE.

You are your own worst enemies in this case. It is precisely the avoidance of adopting a more rational PVP-PVE separated balance more often that causes these imbalances to build up over time, REQUIRING the massive shifts that create the very thing you claim WE the player want you to avoid.

Besides, what are we really defending here ZOS? If you look at the meta, sets like Spinners and Spriggan will still be relevant and proc set stacking, which is toxic 3-2-1 burst cancer BS that never should have been allowed in PVP in the first place, will still be valuable for PVE (and can maybe even get some cool new PVE-centric features and effects). They just won't be the auto-I-win button they are now, which is going to be EVEN WORSE combined with Warden burst.

Is that really a play style worth sacrificing overall game balance and customer satisfaction for?

Because it is really lame and any streamer who relies on it is lame.

Kalante

There should be laws for gaming such as there are in the world of physics. PvP and PvE can not be balanced together!!!

Jamascus

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Posted this in the wrong thread...

It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.

If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.

They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.

They even said in today's Live that we the player don't want small incremental changes because we don't want to have to relearn our abilities and regrind sets every time they make a little change. What they fail to understand is that you make those incremental changes on the test server to find out what works and what doesn't and then implement what actually works.

Except thats exactly what theyre doing in these major updates. Instead of it being small changes we can adjust to over time its these whopping changes that send us being thrown from one side of the ship to the next like we're in a storm of nerfs and changes.

And the problem with large scale changes all at once is that it makes it infinitely harder to tell which changes helped and which broke the game more.

altemriel

Phinix1 wrote: »

Posted this in the wrong thread...

It really isn't that difficult to balance PVE and PVP separately. The biggest problem ZOS has is they don't know how to prioritize. They make these mad 6-month scrambles to balance everything all at once with a sledgehammer, and they end up lurching from one meta to the next because of it.

If they made small changes a little at a time; a tweak to this ability to work a little differently in PVP here, an addition to Battle Spirit there, some tuning of proc sets a couple months later, they wouldn't feel like it was so daunting.

They look at the problem as something that has to be solved all at once from now until the end of time or not bother trying at all and that is why they find themselves saying it is too hard.

they could easily do it like that, that, certain skills would have certain effect in PVE area and a different effecdt in PVP area.
that could do it. and also then solve the lag in cyro and spellcrafting finally would evolve it all !!

Merlin13KAGL

The easiest (and I'm using that term very loosely here) way to begin this would be to have two separate sets of skills/CP's for PvP/PvE.

The PvP version would apply when in Cyrodiil, PvE everywhere else. The only place it gets wonky is IC (which could be balanced at the NPC/boss level)

I'm talking

• Two separate CP loadouts (without the need to respec)
• Two separate skill allotments (with effect value accordingly). (again, without having to respec.)

It wouldn't be server intensive - the 'sets' would load/unload when you entered and exited the zone, so aside from an extra 5 seconds on the loading screen, the users would see no difference in performance whatsoever.

This would allow people to have a PvE spec and a PvP spec without limitations or the need to rebuild your character each time you wanted to do the particular content.

The biggest benefit is that it would allow them (ZOS) to truly balance PvP and PvE separately and independently of each other.

It would require a little more time per character (initial setup), but no more than has to take place now with respecs. I think most would be more than willing to do this one time requirement for the benefits it would add overall.

Micah_Bayer

silky_soft wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

They actually have to balance it 3 different ways with the same skills. NO CP BGs and Campaign, CP Campaign and PVE. What makes it even harder is to balance all 3 of those with 200 CP players and 600 CP characters. It is a nightmare system to balance. That is one of the biggest reason i have hated the whole CP system the entire time. You could take the best people in the industry in regards to balancing and they couldnt come close to balancing under the current system within ESO.

Yep, their idea of balance is a myth.

They could use battlespirit(aka thingy that balances pvp different to pve), which already gives you free hp/halves your damage/halves your healing+shields.

But, eh, chuck it in the too hard basket.

Only if it applied to shields you'd be half health in one wrecking blow as a magic user