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Warden - Free to cast ultimate generation, why?
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Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭And what about NB's who get ult on kills OP? Nobody is making an uproar about that...
Every class has the ability to get ult on kills and it also requires you putting in the action of actually killing something / someone and not just casting a free to cost ability so this is a pretty apples to oranges comparison.3 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭OMG holy crap there will be class that can get ultimate by activating class abilities....
Nightblade:
Transfer : Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 ultimate. This effect have cooldown of 4 seconds. (works with Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power even when not dealing dmg)
Dragonknight:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating Earthen Heart abilities grant You and Your allies minor berserk for 20 seconds. Also if You're in combat You get 3 ultimates each 6 seconds(works with Molten Weapons and Obsidian Shield and Ash Cloudd even when not dealing dmg)
Templar:
Activating Dawn's Wrath abilities grants 3 additional ultimate. This effect can accour once every 6 seconds.(works with Solar Barage even when not dealing dmg)
You realize that all of those skills cost you magicka or stamina right? Warden skill is free to cast...that's the point. Also, those all require you be in combat, that is not a stated requirement on the warden skill.
You do realize that's happening once each 8 seconds right ? And basicly most of the time You'll get this by using offensive skills then by using netch ?
That's better, but that still means free ult every 8 seconds plus all the other benefits of the skill. I didn't see the Warden ESO Live, is the idea of the class that pets and buffs are free and resources are used on spammables?
There is only 1 free cost ability on warden which is that Netch. it have increadibly long animation of summoning. Fact that warden have this ability not making him OP or p2w it's 4 ulti each 8 seconds anywa and You still need to use the ability.
With that way of thinking sorc is even more OP because he have passive that lowers ultimate costs by 15% so he dont even need to use anything he can just use ultimates earlier without using any other abilities and wasting time and resources on proccing passive.
What is the cast time on the summoning? I haven't been able to find that information posted anywhere.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Zvorgin
Cannot speak to the actual change, and really none of us can since the warden is under NDA. However, we do know at least one animal doesn't do damage and doesn't kill anything so much guess is the change is related to that.
It's no different than a NB getting ult from Hahn get a siphoning ability as there is one siphoning skill that doesn't damage or kill anything.It's amusing seeing people making comments based on the hype that other people are generating without even realizing how silly their points are.
Sure, the Netch has zero cost, but it has a lengthy cast time and gives a VERY minor stat return... sure it can purge ONE effect, but in combat you try spamming that and with the cast time you'll be DEAD before the effect is ever purged. Further, Elemental Drain has ZERO cost and returns roughly 3x as much Magicka AND activates Major Breach.
What is the cast time and what is the amount of resource return? They did not include that information in their skills release post or in the patch notes so that's why I made the thread... I really am interested in finding out why these skills and passives are laid out they way they are and how the fit compared to the other class nerfs.
If the idea is pets and buffs are free from the warden but have long cast times and then pet abilities and spammables are for resource consumption they should say so, reading those skills it looks like they are just receiving a lot of built in inherent advantages. I still disagree that buffs should be free.
Again, other than info such as the ESO Live videos demonstrating these skills. Anyone with access to the information cannot even tell you they have access let alone how the mechanics work.0 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »@Zvorgin
Cannot speak to the actual change, and really none of us can since the warden is under NDA. However, we do know at least one animal doesn't do damage and doesn't kill anything so much guess is the change is related to that.
It's no different than a NB getting ult from Hahn get a siphoning ability as there is one siphoning skill that doesn't damage or kill anything.It's amusing seeing people making comments based on the hype that other people are generating without even realizing how silly their points are.
Sure, the Netch has zero cost, but it has a lengthy cast time and gives a VERY minor stat return... sure it can purge ONE effect, but in combat you try spamming that and with the cast time you'll be DEAD before the effect is ever purged. Further, Elemental Drain has ZERO cost and returns roughly 3x as much Magicka AND activates Major Breach.
What is the cast time and what is the amount of resource return? They did not include that information in their skills release post or in the patch notes so that's why I made the thread... I really am interested in finding out why these skills and passives are laid out they way they are and how the fit compared to the other class nerfs.
If the idea is pets and buffs are free from the warden but have long cast times and then pet abilities and spammables are for resource consumption they should say so, reading those skills it looks like they are just receiving a lot of built in inherent advantages. I still disagree that buffs should be free.
Again, other than info such as the ESO Live videos demonstrating these skills. Anyone with access to the information cannot even tell you they have access let alone how the mechanics work.
I was hoping the information was in an ESO Live or posted by Zos somewhere else which wouldn't be under NDA which I am aware of. All the information I am pulling is from public post by Zos but they aren't complete which combined with the NDA I think is what is causing a lot of confusion as to how the Warden fits into the current game and leading to a lot of misunderstanding and quite frankly anger by the player base.
I'm just trying to pull together as much understanding as I can from the publicly released information since there is a lot of sentiment going both ways toward the class that doesn't really seem based on concrete facts.1 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭WalksonGraves wrote: »I can get 15 ult for 1.5k magika, who cares?
Are you able to do that while standing in town with no target? Or while standing in Cyrodiil waiting to defend a keep? It reads that way for the Warden so would be nice if Zos clarified if this passive only works in combat or not.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Zvorgin
A NB can get ult for merely drinking a pot and can get ult using a skill that doesn't do damage. Just the mechanics of the class and every class gets something for ults. Sorc has cost reduction.
If your wanting information from ESO Live and such go for it. Google works great for things like that. You'll find the recordings in Bethesda twitch site iirc.1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OMG holy crap there will be class that can get ultimate by activating class abilities....
Nightblade:
Transfer : Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 ultimate. This effect have cooldown of 4 seconds. (works with Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power even when not dealing dmg)
Dragonknight:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating Earthen Heart abilities grant You and Your allies minor berserk for 20 seconds. Also if You're in combat You get 3 ultimates each 6 seconds(works with Molten Weapons and Obsidian Shield and Ash Cloudd even when not dealing dmg)
Templar:
Activating Dawn's Wrath abilities grants 3 additional ultimate. This effect can accour once every 6 seconds.(works with Solar Barage even when not dealing dmg)
You realize that all of those skills cost you magicka or stamina right? Warden skill is free to cast...that's the point. Also, those all require you be in combat, that is not a stated requirement on the warden skill.
You do realize that's happening once each 8 seconds right ? And basicly most of the time You'll get this by using offensive skills then by using netch ?
That's better, but that still means free ult every 8 seconds plus all the other benefits of the skill. I didn't see the Warden ESO Live, is the idea of the class that pets and buffs are free and resources are used on spammables?
There is only 1 free cost ability on warden which is that Netch. it have increadibly long animation of summoning. Fact that warden have this ability not making him OP or p2w it's 4 ulti each 8 seconds anywa and You still need to use the ability.
With that way of thinking sorc is even more OP because he have passive that lowers ultimate costs by 15% so he dont even need to use anything he can just use ultimates earlier without using any other abilities and wasting time and resources on proccing passive.
What is the cast time on the summoning? I haven't been able to find that information posted anywhere.
There is no cast time but animaion is very long and clunky. You can see this on ESO Live. And like I said sorcerer have even higher ulti generation and dont need to use anything. Lets say normally ulti costs 200 so it's 170 for sorcerer. So assuming warden will use his animal companion class ability each 8 seconds (it will be barely possible in real fights to use ability each exact 8 seconds) and will have normal ulti gen 3/sec he'll need atleast 58 seconds where sorcerer without casting anything just with standard 3/sec ulti gen will need 57 seconds but he'll also spare time to cast 7 additional abilities during that time.Edited by Juhasow on April 25, 2017 3:07PM3 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭OMG holy crap there will be class that can get ultimate by activating class abilities....
Nightblade:
Transfer : Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 ultimate. This effect have cooldown of 4 seconds. (works with Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power even when not dealing dmg)
Dragonknight:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating Earthen Heart abilities grant You and Your allies minor berserk for 20 seconds. Also if You're in combat You get 3 ultimates each 6 seconds(works with Molten Weapons and Obsidian Shield and Ash Cloudd even when not dealing dmg)
Templar:
Activating Dawn's Wrath abilities grants 3 additional ultimate. This effect can accour once every 6 seconds.(works with Solar Barage even when not dealing dmg)
You realize that all of those skills cost you magicka or stamina right? Warden skill is free to cast...that's the point. Also, those all require you be in combat, that is not a stated requirement on the warden skill.
You do realize that's happening once each 8 seconds right ? And basicly most of the time You'll get this by using offensive skills then by using netch ?
That's better, but that still means free ult every 8 seconds plus all the other benefits of the skill. I didn't see the Warden ESO Live, is the idea of the class that pets and buffs are free and resources are used on spammables?
There is only 1 free cost ability on warden which is that Netch. it have increadibly long animation of summoning. Fact that warden have this ability not making him OP or p2w it's 4 ulti each 8 seconds anywa and You still need to use the ability.
With that way of thinking sorc is even more OP because he have passive that lowers ultimate costs by 15% so he dont even need to use anything he can just use ultimates earlier without using any other abilities and wasting time and resources on proccing passive.
What is the cast time on the summoning? I haven't been able to find that information posted anywhere.
There is no cast time but animaion is very long and clunky. You can see this on ESO Live. And like I said sorcerer have even higher ulti generation and dont need to use anything. Lets say normally ulti costs 200 so it's 170 for sorcerer. So assuming warden will use his animal companion class ability each 8 seconds (it will be barely possible in real fights to use ability each exact 8 seconds) and will have normal ulti gen 3/sec he'll need atleast 58 seconds where sorcerer without casting anything just with standard 3/sec ulti gen will need 57 seconds but he'll also spare time to cast 7 additional abilities during that time.
Interesting, with no cast time we'll have to wait and see if it can be animation cancelled. If they tied major buffs to it and a cleanse, it would seem more like that's not a skill that will require multiple seconds to cast despite having a long animation.
Hopefully they lift the NDA on Warden skills user than later since so much has already been made public but not enough to fill in all the holes.
What is the skill Sorcs use to generate ultimate outside of combat that is comparable to this? I've never played a Sorc so not familiar.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OMG holy crap there will be class that can get ultimate by activating class abilities....
Nightblade:
Transfer : Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 ultimate. This effect have cooldown of 4 seconds. (works with Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power even when not dealing dmg)
Dragonknight:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating Earthen Heart abilities grant You and Your allies minor berserk for 20 seconds. Also if You're in combat You get 3 ultimates each 6 seconds(works with Molten Weapons and Obsidian Shield and Ash Cloudd even when not dealing dmg)
Templar:
Activating Dawn's Wrath abilities grants 3 additional ultimate. This effect can accour once every 6 seconds.(works with Solar Barage even when not dealing dmg)
You realize that all of those skills cost you magicka or stamina right? Warden skill is free to cast...that's the point. Also, those all require you be in combat, that is not a stated requirement on the warden skill.
You do realize that's happening once each 8 seconds right ? And basicly most of the time You'll get this by using offensive skills then by using netch ?
That's better, but that still means free ult every 8 seconds plus all the other benefits of the skill. I didn't see the Warden ESO Live, is the idea of the class that pets and buffs are free and resources are used on spammables?
There is only 1 free cost ability on warden which is that Netch. it have increadibly long animation of summoning. Fact that warden have this ability not making him OP or p2w it's 4 ulti each 8 seconds anywa and You still need to use the ability.
With that way of thinking sorc is even more OP because he have passive that lowers ultimate costs by 15% so he dont even need to use anything he can just use ultimates earlier without using any other abilities and wasting time and resources on proccing passive.
What is the cast time on the summoning? I haven't been able to find that information posted anywhere.
There is no cast time but animaion is very long and clunky. You can see this on ESO Live. And like I said sorcerer have even higher ulti generation and dont need to use anything. Lets say normally ulti costs 200 so it's 170 for sorcerer. So assuming warden will use his animal companion class ability each 8 seconds (it will be barely possible in real fights to use ability each exact 8 seconds) and will have normal ulti gen 3/sec he'll need atleast 58 seconds where sorcerer without casting anything just with standard 3/sec ulti gen will need 57 seconds but he'll also spare time to cast 7 additional abilities during that time.
Interesting, with no cast time we'll have to wait and see if it can be animation cancelled. If they tied major buffs to it and a cleanse, it would seem more like that's not a skill that will require multiple seconds to cast despite having a long animation.
Hopefully they lift the NDA on Warden skills user than later since so much has already been made public but not enough to fill in all the holes.
What is the skill Sorcs use to generate ultimate outside of combat that is comparable to this? I've never played a Sorc so not familiar.
I've forgot to mention about other classes
Nb can get 10 ultimate by killing enemies with soul harvest slotted and 20by drinking potions so it makes him even faster with ulti generation. Assuming he'll drink 1 potion and use siphoning abilities each 4 seconds with ulti gen 3/sec it'll take him 52 seconds to charge that 200 ultimate if he wont kill any enemie in the meantime because this can make that time definietly lower.
Dk gets all 3 resources back when he's using ultimates so we can say he partialy resrotes back costs of Earthen Heart abilities used to charge ulti faster.
Does that make more clear for You why Warden isnt that OP with his passive and fact he can charge it with free cost ability?3 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭OMG holy crap there will be class that can get ultimate by activating class abilities....
Nightblade:
Transfer : Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 ultimate. This effect have cooldown of 4 seconds. (works with Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power even when not dealing dmg)
Dragonknight:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating Earthen Heart abilities grant You and Your allies minor berserk for 20 seconds. Also if You're in combat You get 3 ultimates each 6 seconds(works with Molten Weapons and Obsidian Shield and Ash Cloudd even when not dealing dmg)
Templar:
Activating Dawn's Wrath abilities grants 3 additional ultimate. This effect can accour once every 6 seconds.(works with Solar Barage even when not dealing dmg)
You realize that all of those skills cost you magicka or stamina right? Warden skill is free to cast...that's the point. Also, those all require you be in combat, that is not a stated requirement on the warden skill.
You do realize that's happening once each 8 seconds right ? And basicly most of the time You'll get this by using offensive skills then by using netch ?
That's better, but that still means free ult every 8 seconds plus all the other benefits of the skill. I didn't see the Warden ESO Live, is the idea of the class that pets and buffs are free and resources are used on spammables?
There is only 1 free cost ability on warden which is that Netch. it have increadibly long animation of summoning. Fact that warden have this ability not making him OP or p2w it's 4 ulti each 8 seconds anywa and You still need to use the ability.
With that way of thinking sorc is even more OP because he have passive that lowers ultimate costs by 15% so he dont even need to use anything he can just use ultimates earlier without using any other abilities and wasting time and resources on proccing passive.
What is the cast time on the summoning? I haven't been able to find that information posted anywhere.
There is no cast time but animaion is very long and clunky. You can see this on ESO Live. And like I said sorcerer have even higher ulti generation and dont need to use anything. Lets say normally ulti costs 200 so it's 170 for sorcerer. So assuming warden will use his animal companion class ability each 8 seconds (it will be barely possible in real fights to use ability each exact 8 seconds) and will have normal ulti gen 3/sec he'll need atleast 58 seconds where sorcerer without casting anything just with standard 3/sec ulti gen will need 57 seconds but he'll also spare time to cast 7 additional abilities during that time.
Interesting, with no cast time we'll have to wait and see if it can be animation cancelled. If they tied major buffs to it and a cleanse, it would seem more like that's not a skill that will require multiple seconds to cast despite having a long animation.
Hopefully they lift the NDA on Warden skills user than later since so much has already been made public but not enough to fill in all the holes.
What is the skill Sorcs use to generate ultimate outside of combat that is comparable to this? I've never played a Sorc so not familiar.
I've forgot to mention about other classes
Nb can get 10 ultimate by killing enemies with soul harvest slotted and 20by drinking potions so it makes him even faster with ulti generation. Assuming he'll drink 1 potion and use siphoning abilities each 4 seconds with ulti gen 3/sec it'll take him 52 seconds to charge that 200 ultimate if he wont kill any enemie in the meantime because this can make that time definietly lower.
Dk gets all 3 resources back when he's using ultimates so we can say he partialy resrotes back costs of Earthen Heart abilities used to charge ulti faster.
Does that make more clear for You why Warden isnt that OP with his passive and fact he can charge it with free cost ability?
Seems like a whole lot of apples to oranges comparisons other than the nightblade catalyst passive (does this require you to be in combat? If so, this one doesn't compare well either). I also don't see how a DK getting resources back from an ultimate compares to getting free ultimate from a non-combat cast? I'm not aware of the DK having any free to cast abilities. Only one that is close is the Templar and it is for group utility, while this Warden skill is solely beneficial to the caster.
If the passive on the warden is only applicable for summons of pets while in combat, that seems like a more broken skill than the ultimate on cast given you say it's so impractical to cast the summoning skill while fighting.
The Warden will literally be able start every boss fight off with an ult cast if they can generate ultimate while not in combat.
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Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
The Warden will literally be able start every boss fight off with an ult cast if they can generate ultimate while not in combat.
Ohhh. You should've started with this. Yes I agree gaining ultimate without being in combat does come off as a game breaker. It would have ramifications for PvP as well, not just boss fights.0 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭
The Warden will literally be able start every boss fight off with an ult cast if they can generate ultimate while not in combat.
Ohhh. You should've started with this. Yes I agree gaining ultimate without being in combat does come off as a game breaker. It would have ramifications for PvP as well, not just boss fights.
It was my first point in the bullets but I can see how it was a bit buried. The non-combat ult generation is by far the most game breaking aspect of this change from 3.0.0 to 3.0.1.0 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Holy crap. Calm down guys, it will get changed. JeezPC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~1 -
lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
On live every class can generate ulti out of combat. And every time zos tried to change something about this, it only took a short time till players found a new way to gain ulti. Most methods have been related to dodging non harmful effects. I haven't checked on pts, but I'm pretty sure it will still work there.The Warden will literally be able start every boss fight off with an ult cast if they can generate ultimate while not in combat.0 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mudballs also generate Ulti out of combat"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU1 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »
On live every class can generate ulti out of combat. And every time zos tried to change something about this, it only took a short time till players found a new way to gain ulti. Most methods have been related to dodging non harmful effects. I haven't checked on pts, but I'm pretty sure it will still work there.The Warden will literally be able start every boss fight off with an ult cast if they can generate ultimate while not in combat.
Seriously? How does each existing class generate ult outside of combat?
I consider myself to be semi informed and this I was unaware of.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Templar has a very cheap skill that pays for itself in a couple seconds and also provides the major armor buffs plus minor mending. Virtually free and much more benefit.
Sorc is able to use the off resource to get both magika and stamina so free in the sense it doesn't cost much he resource they're using.
NB, for a small cost gets a buff that pays them back in their resource of choice and heals for significantly more than the buff costs.
DK gets a ton of resources back merely for using an ult. The ult is going to be used anyhow so the resources are free. Further they get stamina for using a skill that's beneficial to use anyhow. So the side effect of getting resources back is free. Omg, sub a nasty word. And they get ult at the same time.0 -
Vajrak✭✭✭Extra Note: Long animation, and it's a pet. So yay, it can be killed during combat (and likely will often do to AoEs from mobs). So not reliable sustain + major damage buff. Seems pretty fair overall.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As i understand it the warden is still under NDA, so by definition discussions about details of the wardens function in play on this non-closed forum is limited to those who have not played the warden to know the fine print or those who have but cannot share them.
Well, unless someone wants to break NDA of course.
So, hey, it is what it is.
i think its at least fair to say that the "on activate gain ulti" skill tooltips have been less than clear whether they restore ulti out of combat or not. one could only know definitively one way or the other about a given one by having tested it and if that test was under NDA...Edited by STEVIL on April 25, 2017 5:50PMProudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It would be nice if the WW ult was like this. You keep on building Ult while in WW form and can extend the transformation.1 -
Zvorgin✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Templar has a very cheap skill that pays for itself in a couple seconds and also provides the major armor buffs plus minor mending. Virtually free and much more benefit.
Sorc is able to use the off resource to get both magika and stamina so free in the sense it doesn't cost much he resource they're using.
NB, for a small cost gets a buff that pays them back in their resource of choice and heals for significantly more than the buff costs.
DK gets a ton of resources back merely for using an ult. The ult is going to be used anyhow so the resources are free. Further they get stamina for using a skill that's beneficial to use anyhow. So the side effect of getting resources back is free. Omg, sub a nasty word. And they get ult at the same time.
None of these examples generate ult outside of combat which is the main point. There is also a significant difference between low cost and free.
When speaking of mending, Warden has major mending passively which is a whole other discussion. Those are some pretty strong inherent advantages.1 -
Destyran✭✭✭✭✭Can they address why warden is only class with major mending? When their heals are HoTs and temps neef it more?2
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can they address why warden is only class with major mending? When their heals are HoTs and temps neef it more?
Players cannot discuss anything from the Morrowind section. My guess is they cannot easily keep it up full time which makes a difference. Also, I think DKs have access to major mending but again it cannot be reliably kept up full time and during heavy Samage it will certainly not be up full time.0
