austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that Warden's will become the top tier healers within several weeks on live. Most trials heals is HOT based anyway with the Restoration staff and Healing Springs. Warden's are HOT healers. Stacking HOTS in ESO has always been more effective than burst healing when it comes to trials.

Burst healing excels in PVP to counter burst damage. But the Warden will still excel in PVP due to things besides just their healing.

We are not allowed to talk about Warden's performance just yet as it violates NDA? So, we will have to wait and see.

All I can say is that spamming Springs will still be the main way to heal. If you take a look at Warden's Green Balance skill line, there's only one Fire-and-Forget HoT: Living Vines. There's a heal that bursts after 6 seconds and a buffs that restore health to allies with heavy attacks but I don't think many people can find a way to utilize those 2 in trials. (these infos are published by ZoS so it isn't violating NDA). Then, if you take a look at Templars, they also have their HoT: Ritual. So, people will still rely on Spring spamming in trials. And what is the best class for Spring spamming? Templar. With high Minor Mending uptime (and the only class that has it), Templar will be the class that can maintain the highest SPC uptime.

Warden has major mending but only after they heal a low health target with 1 of their heals. Gina has said that ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime to make sure that it's low (also, info published by ZOS), so as long as they keep it low enough, Templar will still be the king in healing.
Though, I am not a fan of giving Warden's major mending. I would like to give them minor mending instead, they can raise the threshold so it can be high, but it also means Warden's minor mending isn't reliable and Templar's minor mending is.

I am a fan of giving Wardens and Templars major mending, as they're classes with dedicated healing lines.

Then give it to others, or keep Major Resolve and Major Ward something exclusively available for DK, as DK is the only class with dedicated tanking skill line.

Aedric Spear ---> Tanking
Shadow ---> Tanking

Restoring Light - Healing
Earthen Heart - Healing
Siphoning - Healing

Sorcerer just doesn't quite fit the mold in this regard, but yes both of the other classes do have skill lines which involve tanking and healing. I disagree with your statement.

Aedric Spear isn't really a tanking line. It has one skill, Sun Shield, to help achieve that. And it only scales off of max health.

Honestly, sun shield needs to scale based off of max Magicka and Max Health. Maybe 20% for each. One of the morphs needs to be Health/stamina scaling.

It's the perfect example a good skill with subpar morphs. If the morphs were better and more specific it would help the templar achieve their design.

I'm fairly certain their point behind the Aedric Spear skill line was the 'tanking tree' as far as they were concerned. The passives in particular really sink that notion. I'm not stating as to whether any of these specific class lines are the best or great at their intent, but it has been clear to me all along that generally the classes have a DD, Tank, and Heal/Support line. Sorcerer fits that bill although I would say not well. In the case of sorcerer the summoning line was for the most part I think intended as the 'Tank' line, and I can't decide between DD/Support on Dark and Storm because they seem to have slushed it up a fair bit. I like Sorcerer thematically but I've always been against the reliance it has on Toggles. I'd love to see Sorc pets operate more like Nightblade pets. My point though here was that I do believe ZoS intent was to make it so the main 3 roles could get fair play among the 4 classes. I've got no problem with them building toward that end, if class just means 'flavor'.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

cavakthestampede wrote: »

Templars have minor mending in addition to major availability. Their heals will stay stronger. They also already adressed warden uptime on major in a later comment and will review it

Major Mending from Reston Heavy attack is a bad mechanic. The duration is too short, and it's simply too inefficient to be considered a viable form of access to the buff.

I'm aware of what theyreally doing to warden.

None of your comments however take away from how severe the loss actually is for Templars. Not just the healers either. It harms the tanks and stamplars more than anyone.

I really get annoyed when people assume Templar must be or 'should' be the healer. The load screen and description of Templar at the start of the game was a Knightly heavy armor wearing crusader with a two hander. I am likewise equally annoyed by the crowd that assumed Argonian should be the 'healer race' just because it originally had healing received. People should read a little more. Having played other games I can also tell you for a fact that 'Siphoning' type healing builds or 'Bubbling' type healing builds have even been the favored or most effective form of healing. It is for this very reason that I never assumed Templar was the end all be all of healing. Dk's had their shields, Nightblades had siphons, and Sorcerers.... were weird. That being said the game has certainly favored Templar as he healer, until now. I personally think based upon what I've read (and as I have not gotten the PTS invite that's all I have to go on) Warden looks like the future #1 healer. Everyone knows HoT's are king with healing. Burst healing is great I suppose but you can get plenty of that in the Restoration Line already with proper placement. I've never been that impressed with Templar heals. The cleanse is nice but if cleansing is your aim Purge is better, and has way more coverage and doesn't require an annoying synergization. Repentance is okay I suppose for keeping the fight going faster for your Stamina DD's and Tanks between mobs. Rune focus is... the absolute worst armor buff in the game, except that it gave Mending and magic recovery. If they want to nerf Templar the way they are going, I really think they should dump one of our skunky skills, give us Blinding Flashes back and allow us at least a morph that travels with us on Rune Focus. The whole 'House' concept has never flown as far as I'm concerned.

Elsterchen wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly I just copy pasted...like you did.

You forget these:
1) Nightblade and Sorc don't have Major Mending -> unless they wave a restro staff, so they will have exactly the same acess to Major mending like templars.
2) DK's Major Mending uptime will be pathetic next patch. -> no argue about that, and I never claimed that shield was in any way an option. BUT again, any DK can wave a restro staff to gain major mending
3) No one has access to Minor Mending.-> everyone has the option to wear 5 pieces: Healers Habit an gain Minor mending uptime at all times.
4) Templar has access to high Minor Mending uptime, they can easily keep up Minor Mending 100%
(as for warden, ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words).

1) So they don't have any advantages compared to Templar.
2) Yup.
3) So it means they will lose the ability to wear 2 support sets, thus making Templar having massive advantages.
4) So Templar healers have massive advantages.

Elsterchen wrote: »

When it comes to spring spamming, Templar is the King. That's why Templar will be the best class for healing. -> In sum: Its ok if a class in ESO with a whole skillline dedicated to healing: needs to use a specific weapon, using a WEAPON trait most of the time and follow a specific game mechanic...(breathe)... to shine in what is their ONLY ability left they are under certain conditions better at, then other classes. Plus any other player can put on a amor set to gain minor mending uptime reliably 100% of the time and use the exact same mechanics to heal with the exact same ability?

Templar's advantages:
1) AOE minor magickasteal
2) Minor sorcery to the group
3) Backlash (1 morph is a debuff, the other morph boosts the DPS a little bit and is a small heal to the group)
4) A nice burst heal
5) A nice AOE HoT that can cleanse harmful effects -> Templar's defined mechanics
6) Minor Mending + Meding passive is buffed
which leads to 7) Highest SPC uptime, as a result of Minor Mending + the Mending passive.

Let's take an example of a Sorc healer. Sorc's advantage in healing
1) An Oh--**** button that takes 2 slots on your bar.
2) There's only that one. Sorc is that bad in healing.

Elsterchen wrote: »

As it stands in the pts: Templars will be the only class that are have a skillline to make them shine that can be challenged by any player that can wield a staff and has enough friends to drag him through dragonstar arena often enough to get the desired gear in the desired traits. Adding to the misery the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies, was removed completely.

It is a good thing that a non-Templar healer can challenge a Templar. A Templar DD can challenge a Sorc DD, so why can't a Sorc Healer challenge a Templar healer? Templar shouldn't be the defined Healer class, yes they are (and will still be) the best class in healing, as they should be, and Templar healers still have all the edges in the world, other classes have to try way harder to compete against Templar healers.

"the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies" -> again, it's the thing that makes non-Templar healers not viable in vet trials: they do not have an ability that can provide stamina to the group, and feeding stamina to the group is the job of a healer, so non-Templar healers cannot fulfill their jobs.

Elsterchen wrote: »

I fail to see how Templar is going to be king at anything after the patch hits, please I am open to suggestions, but banatalizing the butchery of a class doesn't help. Really it doesn't.

I have no idea what "banatalizing" means, i assume you mean that I advocate for the "butchery" of Templar? Please confirm if it's what you mean.

Elsterchen wrote: »

edit: Tell me what happens if a mag-warden uses said set, equipps a restro for the skill and spams healing springs? Yeah right, whenever one ally falls below 50% heals HIS healing springs will get the major mending buff. This much to your version of ... the best healer will remain a templar.

Again, I believe we cannot talk about Warden's performance just yet. All I can say is that ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words.

Non-Templar healers can wear Healer's Habit and compete against Templar healers? It's the damn point! Every class has a chance to compete against Templar healers in any kind of content (right now only Templar healers are allowed to do harder content), so but Templar can wear 2 support sets so they have massive advantages in the min-max side of things, a long with all the advantages I listed above. So, min-maxing wise, Templar is still the best class in healing, other classes can compete against Templar healers, but there's a gap they have to overcome, so, we still won't see DK/Sorc/NB healers in competitive raids. That's for sure.

---

Don't forget our main discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4037591/#Comment_4037591

You want to keep Shard as something only available for Templar? Fine. Then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK's class skill line and call them "DK's unique abilities", screw all the non-DK tanks. Also, make Templar's DPS capability so pathetic that no one let them run vet trials anymore. Right now their DPS is not far behind Sorc and way above Nightblade.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly I just copy pasted...like you did.

You forget these:
1) Nightblade and Sorc don't have Major Mending -> unless they wave a restro staff, so they will have exactly the same acess to Major mending like templars.
2) DK's Major Mending uptime will be pathetic next patch. -> no argue about that, and I never claimed that shield was in any way an option. BUT again, any DK can wave a restro staff to gain major mending
3) No one has access to Minor Mending.-> everyone has the option to wear 5 pieces: Healers Habit an gain Minor mending uptime at all times.
4) Templar has access to high Minor Mending uptime, they can easily keep up Minor Mending 100%
(as for warden, ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words).

1) So they don't have any advantages compared to Templar.
2) Yup.
3) So it means they will lose the ability to wear 2 support sets, thus making Templar having massive advantages.
4) So Templar healers have massive advantages.

Elsterchen wrote: »

When it comes to spring spamming, Templar is the King. That's why Templar will be the best class for healing. -> In sum: Its ok if a class in ESO with a whole skillline dedicated to healing: needs to use a specific weapon, using a WEAPON trait most of the time and follow a specific game mechanic...(breathe)... to shine in what is their ONLY ability left they are under certain conditions better at, then other classes. Plus any other player can put on a amor set to gain minor mending uptime reliably 100% of the time and use the exact same mechanics to heal with the exact same ability?

Templar's advantages:
1) AOE minor magickasteal
2) Minor sorcery to the group
3) Backlash (1 morph is a debuff, the other morph boosts the DPS a little bit and is a small heal to the group)
4) A nice burst heal
5) A nice AOE HoT that can cleanse harmful effects -> Templar's defined mechanics
6) Minor Mending + Meding passive is buffed
which leads to 7) Highest SPC uptime, as a result of Minor Mending + the Mending passive.

Let's take an example of a Sorc healer. Sorc's advantage in healing
1) An Oh--**** button that takes 2 slots on your bar.
2) There's only that one. Sorc is that bad in healing.

Elsterchen wrote: »

As it stands in the pts: Templars will be the only class that are have a skillline to make them shine that can be challenged by any player that can wield a staff and has enough friends to drag him through dragonstar arena often enough to get the desired gear in the desired traits. Adding to the misery the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies, was removed completely.

It is a good thing that a non-Templar healer can challenge a Templar. A Templar DD can challenge a Sorc DD, so why can't a Sorc Healer challenge a Templar healer? Templar shouldn't be the defined Healer class, yes they are (and will still be) the best class in healing, as they should be, and Templar healers still have all the edges in the world, other classes have to try way harder to compete against Templar healers.

"the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies" -> again, it's the thing that makes non-Templar healers not viable in vet trials: they do not have an ability that can provide stamina to the group, and feeding stamina to the group is the job of a healer, so non-Templar healers cannot fulfill their jobs.

Elsterchen wrote: »

I fail to see how Templar is going to be king at anything after the patch hits, please I am open to suggestions, but banatalizing the butchery of a class doesn't help. Really it doesn't.

I have no idea what "banatalizing" means, i assume you mean that I advocate for the "butchery" of Templar? Please confirm if it's what you mean.

Elsterchen wrote: »

edit: Tell me what happens if a mag-warden uses said set, equipps a restro for the skill and spams healing springs? Yeah right, whenever one ally falls below 50% heals HIS healing springs will get the major mending buff. This much to your version of ... the best healer will remain a templar.

Again, I believe we cannot talk about Warden's performance just yet. All I can say is that ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words.

Non-Templar healers can wear Healer's Habit and compete against Templar healers? It's the damn point! Every class has a chance to compete against Templar healers in any kind of content (right now only Templar healers are allowed to do harder content), so but Templar can wear 2 support sets so they have massive advantages in the min-max side of things, a long with all the advantages I listed above. So, min-maxing wise, Templar is still the best class in healing, other classes can compete against Templar healers, but there's a gap they have to overcome, so, we still won't see DK/Sorc/NB healers in competitive raids. That's for sure.

---

Don't forget our main discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4037591/#Comment_4037591

You want to keep Shard as something only available for Templar? Fine. Then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK's class skill line and call them "DK's unique abilities", screw all the non-DK tanks. Also, make Templar's DPS capability so pathetic that no one let them run vet trials anymore. Right now their DPS is not far behind Sorc and way above Nightblade.

The main mistake I see in your assessment is that you do not factor in the vastly superior resource regeneration that a Sorcerer gets compared to a Templar, or the cost reduction of all abilities. I use rather regularly overload expressly for the purpose to hit an enemy hard and refuel my magicka. Sorcerer also can utilize an ultimate to heal so there is that estimation one could make as well. The massive boost a sorcerer can pick up to their Magicka attribute also means their baseline magicka will give them higher spikes of healing from the restoration staff than a Templar. I personally have chosen not to play my Sorcerers a healer because I find the use of the Nightwing annoying more than anything else and I loathe the toggle feature of the class. The Sorcerer is absolutely better at spamming restoration abilities at less cost than a Templar, with a higher baseline Magicka (particularly when you factor in sets that benefit Sorcerer specifically).

I'm actually happy that they've found a means to give the Orb thing to non-Templar healers. The part that annoys me with the changes actually have more to do with the way they effect Tankplars and Stamplars. I also have felt a long time that adding CC Immunity to the game fundamentally wrecked the Templar class, a notion I've been stating for years now. Templar plays in a choppy, sluggish manner. It relies heavily on telegraphed moves and channels. The payoff for using those moves SHOULD hurt an awful lot. In the time I can toss out an easily avoidable dark flare, a Sorcerer version of me could probably chain 4 to 6 attacks 3.5 of which are unique executes (Frags + Prey, Implosion, Fury). The class also lacks in stamina morphs where it would be rather reasonable, like the charge. I've got my complaints as well about Eclipse which hasn't been worth my time since cc-Immunity was added to the game. I really want to like Eclipse but it is far too situational and clumsy. Shards is likewise clumsy whereas it was at one point overpowered before immunity to cc was added to the game, where you could keep someone in permanent stun lock. That was a bad situation. Now I look at the skill as a really crappy easily avoided cc on anything but a healer. The changes being made more or less nullify having this skill at all. I'm not even going to get into my irritation with the class passives over the years. They're in a better place right now than they have been but I'm a little concerned about where they are moving with the Morrowind patch.

I do have to say I will be playing a Stamplar through the Morrowind content and I really hope I'm not extremely disappointed. I also intend to build a Nord Warden and an Argonian Warden at some point through Morrowind as well. I have a strong feeling the Argonian Warden is going to replace my Magplar healer.

Amen. 100% Agree.

ofSunhold wrote: »

@LadyLethalla wrote: »

Perhaps it's just the cynic in me - and this has probably already been said (don't have time to ready 5 pages of posts) - but it seems to me that the Templar nerfs are broadly aimed at making us buy Morrowind... just saying.

It has been suggested a couple of times, yes.

A guildmate asked me if I was planning to roll a warden healer. What I'm planning to do is bump wardens to the number two spot on my kill-order list in PvP, right after "the guy who is killing me," and before "healers"

OMG now templar healers are not only not second

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly I just copy pasted...like you did.

You forget these:
1) Nightblade and Sorc don't have Major Mending -> unless they wave a restro staff, so they will have exactly the same acess to Major mending like templars.
2) DK's Major Mending uptime will be pathetic next patch. -> no argue about that, and I never claimed that shield was in any way an option. BUT again, any DK can wave a restro staff to gain major mending
3) No one has access to Minor Mending.-> everyone has the option to wear 5 pieces: Healers Habit an gain Minor mending uptime at all times.
4) Templar has access to high Minor Mending uptime, they can easily keep up Minor Mending 100%
(as for warden, ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words).

1) So they don't have any advantages compared to Templar.
2) Yup.
3) So it means they will lose the ability to wear 2 support sets, thus making Templar having massive advantages.
4) So Templar healers have massive advantages.

Elsterchen wrote: »

When it comes to spring spamming, Templar is the King. That's why Templar will be the best class for healing. -> In sum: Its ok if a class in ESO with a whole skillline dedicated to healing: needs to use a specific weapon, using a WEAPON trait most of the time and follow a specific game mechanic...(breathe)... to shine in what is their ONLY ability left they are under certain conditions better at, then other classes. Plus any other player can put on a amor set to gain minor mending uptime reliably 100% of the time and use the exact same mechanics to heal with the exact same ability?

Templar's advantages:
1) AOE minor magickasteal
2) Minor sorcery to the group
3) Backlash (1 morph is a debuff, the other morph boosts the DPS a little bit and is a small heal to the group)
4) A nice burst heal
5) A nice AOE HoT that can cleanse harmful effects -> Templar's defined mechanics
6) Minor Mending + Meding passive is buffed
which leads to 7) Highest SPC uptime, as a result of Minor Mending + the Mending passive.

Let's take an example of a Sorc healer. Sorc's advantage in healing
1) An Oh--**** button that takes 2 slots on your bar.
2) There's only that one. Sorc is that bad in healing.

Elsterchen wrote: »

As it stands in the pts: Templars will be the only class that are have a skillline to make them shine that can be challenged by any player that can wield a staff and has enough friends to drag him through dragonstar arena often enough to get the desired gear in the desired traits. Adding to the misery the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies, was removed completely.

It is a good thing that a non-Templar healer can challenge a Templar. A Templar DD can challenge a Sorc DD, so why can't a Sorc Healer challenge a Templar healer? Templar shouldn't be the defined Healer class, yes they are (and will still be) the best class in healing, as they should be, and Templar healers still have all the edges in the world, other classes have to try way harder to compete against Templar healers.

"the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies" -> again, it's the thing that makes non-Templar healers not viable in vet trials: they do not have an ability that can provide stamina to the group, and feeding stamina to the group is the job of a healer, so non-Templar healers cannot fulfill their jobs.

Elsterchen wrote: »

I fail to see how Templar is going to be king at anything after the patch hits, please I am open to suggestions, but banatalizing the butchery of a class doesn't help. Really it doesn't.

I have no idea what "banatalizing" means, i assume you mean that I advocate for the "butchery" of Templar? Please confirm if it's what you mean.

Elsterchen wrote: »

edit: Tell me what happens if a mag-warden uses said set, equipps a restro for the skill and spams healing springs? Yeah right, whenever one ally falls below 50% heals HIS healing springs will get the major mending buff. This much to your version of ... the best healer will remain a templar.

Again, I believe we cannot talk about Warden's performance just yet. All I can say is that ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words.

Non-Templar healers can wear Healer's Habit and compete against Templar healers? It's the damn point! Every class has a chance to compete against Templar healers in any kind of content (right now only Templar healers are allowed to do harder content), so but Templar can wear 2 support sets so they have massive advantages in the min-max side of things, a long with all the advantages I listed above. So, min-maxing wise, Templar is still the best class in healing, other classes can compete against Templar healers, but there's a gap they have to overcome, so, we still won't see DK/Sorc/NB healers in competitive raids. That's for sure.

---

Don't forget our main discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4037591/#Comment_4037591

You want to keep Shard as something only available for Templar? Fine. Then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK's class skill line and call them "DK's unique abilities", screw all the non-DK tanks. Also, make Templar's DPS capability so pathetic that no one let them run vet trials anymore. Right now their DPS is not far behind Sorc and way above Nightblade.

Honestly, I know we do talk about the same game, same class and such. But I do not get your reasoning. Why in heavens name would you want any class to perform in any task just as good as any other class? AND on top of that always perform 100% "perfect". Sry, to me, this just doesn't make sense at all an its making a bagatelle (sry again, for expecting the english language to actually have a verb for that) out the mere fact that from next patch on the templar is the only class that does not have any role he is able to perfom at 100% perfection. Or do anything unique appart from beein the only class that has a spear animation (which is really pretty useless as you get nothing from it - it just looks cool).You know very well what is meant by this statement, even when my english is clumsy.

If you still keep your notion that its fine for every class to do healing just as good as templar healers do in vet trials. I think I can help you: I will allocate all ressources I got to build you a sorc that is able to replace templar healers in vet trails as they are going to be at the day these patch notes go live: hence old rota and with minor mending only. Obviously using healers habit and restro staff. Just tell me which set I have to equip to my templar and which weapon I have to use to gain a DKs tankiness with 100% uptime of minor brutality for me and my allies. Oh yeah and to truely meet YOUR own standards I really want to run vet trials with that char- so yeah, this needs to be viable even for picky min/maxers eyes. Oh and I like the extra ultimate generation too please... but to me that really is a minor, not sure about YOUR own standards. Guess it should be on the list right?

This isn't much to ask for, really - I don't want a pet to accompany me and insane amounts of ranged damage. I also do not want to be able to cloak my way out of tense situations and have major savagery up at all times for me AND my allies. Just a perfect tank and minor brutality ... should be a piece of cake to you.

Else I like you to read the title of this thread again, I really have the feeling you are not the least interested in discussing Templars, Champion Points, Sustain, or Dissecting ZOS' proposed Direction.

Elsterchen wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

@LadyLethalla wrote: »

Perhaps it's just the cynic in me - and this has probably already been said (don't have time to ready 5 pages of posts) - but it seems to me that the Templar nerfs are broadly aimed at making us buy Morrowind... just saying.

It has been suggested a couple of times, yes.

A guildmate asked me if I was planning to roll a warden healer. What I'm planning to do is bump wardens to the number two spot on my kill-order list in PvP, right after "the guy who is killing me," and before "healers"

OMG now templar healers are not only not second

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly I just copy pasted...like you did.

You forget these:
1) Nightblade and Sorc don't have Major Mending -> unless they wave a restro staff, so they will have exactly the same acess to Major mending like templars.
2) DK's Major Mending uptime will be pathetic next patch. -> no argue about that, and I never claimed that shield was in any way an option. BUT again, any DK can wave a restro staff to gain major mending
3) No one has access to Minor Mending.-> everyone has the option to wear 5 pieces: Healers Habit an gain Minor mending uptime at all times.
4) Templar has access to high Minor Mending uptime, they can easily keep up Minor Mending 100%
(as for warden, ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words).

1) So they don't have any advantages compared to Templar.
2) Yup.
3) So it means they will lose the ability to wear 2 support sets, thus making Templar having massive advantages.
4) So Templar healers have massive advantages.

Elsterchen wrote: »

When it comes to spring spamming, Templar is the King. That's why Templar will be the best class for healing. -> In sum: Its ok if a class in ESO with a whole skillline dedicated to healing: needs to use a specific weapon, using a WEAPON trait most of the time and follow a specific game mechanic...(breathe)... to shine in what is their ONLY ability left they are under certain conditions better at, then other classes. Plus any other player can put on a amor set to gain minor mending uptime reliably 100% of the time and use the exact same mechanics to heal with the exact same ability?

Templar's advantages:
1) AOE minor magickasteal
2) Minor sorcery to the group
3) Backlash (1 morph is a debuff, the other morph boosts the DPS a little bit and is a small heal to the group)
4) A nice burst heal
5) A nice AOE HoT that can cleanse harmful effects -> Templar's defined mechanics
6) Minor Mending + Meding passive is buffed
which leads to 7) Highest SPC uptime, as a result of Minor Mending + the Mending passive.

Let's take an example of a Sorc healer. Sorc's advantage in healing
1) An Oh--**** button that takes 2 slots on your bar.
2) There's only that one. Sorc is that bad in healing.

Elsterchen wrote: »

As it stands in the pts: Templars will be the only class that are have a skillline to make them shine that can be challenged by any player that can wield a staff and has enough friends to drag him through dragonstar arena often enough to get the desired gear in the desired traits. Adding to the misery the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies, was removed completely.

It is a good thing that a non-Templar healer can challenge a Templar. A Templar DD can challenge a Sorc DD, so why can't a Sorc Healer challenge a Templar healer? Templar shouldn't be the defined Healer class, yes they are (and will still be) the best class in healing, as they should be, and Templar healers still have all the edges in the world, other classes have to try way harder to compete against Templar healers.

"the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies" -> again, it's the thing that makes non-Templar healers not viable in vet trials: they do not have an ability that can provide stamina to the group, and feeding stamina to the group is the job of a healer, so non-Templar healers cannot fulfill their jobs.

Elsterchen wrote: »

I fail to see how Templar is going to be king at anything after the patch hits, please I am open to suggestions, but banatalizing the butchery of a class doesn't help. Really it doesn't.

I have no idea what "banatalizing" means, i assume you mean that I advocate for the "butchery" of Templar? Please confirm if it's what you mean.

Elsterchen wrote: »

edit: Tell me what happens if a mag-warden uses said set, equipps a restro for the skill and spams healing springs? Yeah right, whenever one ally falls below 50% heals HIS healing springs will get the major mending buff. This much to your version of ... the best healer will remain a templar.

Again, I believe we cannot talk about Warden's performance just yet. All I can say is that ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words.

Non-Templar healers can wear Healer's Habit and compete against Templar healers? It's the damn point! Every class has a chance to compete against Templar healers in any kind of content (right now only Templar healers are allowed to do harder content), so but Templar can wear 2 support sets so they have massive advantages in the min-max side of things, a long with all the advantages I listed above. So, min-maxing wise, Templar is still the best class in healing, other classes can compete against Templar healers, but there's a gap they have to overcome, so, we still won't see DK/Sorc/NB healers in competitive raids. That's for sure.

---

Don't forget our main discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4037591/#Comment_4037591

You want to keep Shard as something only available for Templar? Fine. Then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK's class skill line and call them "DK's unique abilities", screw all the non-DK tanks. Also, make Templar's DPS capability so pathetic that no one let them run vet trials anymore. Right now their DPS is not far behind Sorc and way above Nightblade.

Honestly, I know we do talk about the same game, same class and such. But I do not get your reasoning. Why in heavens name would you want any class to perform in any task just as good as any other class? AND on top of that always perform 100% "perfect". Sry, to me, this just doesn't make sense at all an its making a bagatelle (sry again, for expecting the english language to actually have a verb for that) out the mere fact that from next patch on the templar is the only class that does not have any role he is able to perfom at 100% perfection. Or do anything unique appart from beein the only class that has a spear animation (which is really pretty useless as you get nothing from it - it just looks cool).You know very well what is meant by this statement, even when my english is clumsy.

If you still keep your notion that its fine for every class to do healing just as good as templar healers do in vet trials. I think I can help you: I will allocate all ressources I got to build you a sorc that is able to replace templar healers in vet trails as they are going to be at the day these patch notes go live: hence old rota and with minor mending only. Obviously using healers habit and restro staff. Just tell me wich set I have to equipp to my templar and which weapon I have to use to gain a DKs tankiness with 100% uptime of minor ward for me and my allies. Oh yeah and to truely meet YOUR own standards I really want to run vet trials with that char- so yeah, this needs to be viable even for picky min/maxers eyes. Oh and I like the extra ultimate generation too please... but to me that really is a minor, not sure about YOUR own standards. Guess it should be on the list right?

This isn't much to ask for, really - I don't want a pet to accompany me and insane amounts of ranged damage. I also do not want to be able to cloak my way out of tense situations and have major savagery up at all times for me AND my allies. Just a perfect tank and minor ward ... should be a piece of cake to you.

Else I like you to read the title of this thread again, I really have the feeling you are not the least interested in discussing Templars, Champion Points, Sustain, or Dissecting ZOS' proposed Direction.

I have said this a lot, I don't want "any class to perform in any task just as good as any other class", I want Templar to be the best class in healing, do you even read what I have written????!??? I want all classes to be somewhat viable in any role at any kind of content, but I, in the life of me, have never said that non-Templar healers should be as good as Templar healers. Never. Non-Templar healers are not viable at harder content like vet trials, not because they are less effective (and they should be less effective than Templar healers), or that their heals are weaker (in fact their heals are weaker but that's not why they aren't viable), it's because they don't have the tool needed to do the job of a healer, which is feeding stamina to the group.

If an ability to feed stamina to the group should be something "unique" to the Templar class, then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK class skill lines, and call them "DK's unique abilities". An ability to feed stamina to the group is the essential tool that a healer has to have, like how taunting and debuffing are jobs of a tank, if it's should be something only Templars have access to (thus removing non-Templar healers entirely from difficult content), then Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash should only available for DK, don't let other classes have access to those 2 abilities. Also, make Templar's DPS capability pathetic so they are also removed from difficult content like vet trials. Do you want the game to be that way?

cavakthestampede wrote: »

Hmm mm well as a primarily Nightblade healer using a restoration staff for major mending isnt difficult at all, and with the sustain changes chances are good play will involve heavy attacking that often anyway.

Awesome! Now let's remove one of your skill lines and dedicate it to healing only, with no buffs and debuffs. Then you're square with Templars having to use a Restro Staff too.

ofSunhold wrote: »

@LadyLethalla wrote: »

Perhaps it's just the cynic in me - and this has probably already been said (don't have time to ready 5 pages of posts) - but it seems to me that the Templar nerfs are broadly aimed at making us buy Morrowind... just saying.

It has been suggested a couple of times, yes.

A guildmate asked me if I was planning to roll a warden healer. What I'm planning to do is bump wardens to the number two spot on my kill-order list in PvP, right after "the guy who is killing me," and before "healers"

I'm with you. I won't be rolling a Warden lol, I'll be rolling a Sorc. That way I'll only have nerfs that all the rest of the game gets, but while they also get class nerfs, mine will be untouched.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

What irks me about your poorly assessed comments is that you think the Templar healer's defining skills should be removed because any other class does not have it. THAT in itself tells me that other classes aren't suppose to be defacto healers in trials and raids. What you haven't considered (and I am sure you can find this in many in the forum posts) that there are healer NBs and healer sorcs and healer DKs who have completed vtrials. That tells me one thing, your healer NB/sorc/DK is the problem. Not the class. Maybe these other healer NBs/Sorcs/DKs are more skilled, because heck they completed it. So why again are you saying that Templars should be nerf to the ground? Is it because so unskilled healers will have a better chance at raiding?

Another thing if other classes wants their shards, let me have my cloak or crystal frags as well. Because I sure want to be a stealthy templar without using invis pots.

PS

To OP:

Thank you for posting. I hope those other classes who wants to do vtrials and raid (PvP and PvE) understand why Templar healers are outraged by these changes. It's not because we don't want other classes to heal better than Templars, it's because there was no reason why ZoS should have nerfed the class other than the fact that they just want the Warden to be more viable than any other class. Again, I still believe people will buy Morrowind regardless of the nerfs.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!

We all know that Templar will still be the best class for healing, numbers say so, actual PTS testing says so, all the complaints about "I made Templar because Templar #1 Healer now it isn't #1 Healer anymore" are just false fearmongering assumptions, complaining for the sake of complaining. Templars still have all the edges in the world when it comes to trial healing, Sorc/NB/DK healers aren't going to take Templar's place as the king of healing. They will only be able to join non-tryhard regular friendly trial runs (which they aren't allowed to do now).

Shard isn't "the only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities", Shard is "the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in trials".

You want Templar to be the only class allowed to heal in trials? Fine, then remove Templar's DPS capability. Right now Templar DDs can still apply for trial runs, as their DPS is totally viable, not far behind sorc and way above nightblade.

Have u played a templar? You should give it a try sometime.

As a matter of fact, I do.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

Care to elaborate?

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!

We all know that Templar will still be the best class for healing, numbers say so, actual PTS testing says so, all the complaints about "I made Templar because Templar #1 Healer now it isn't #1 Healer anymore" are just false fearmongering assumptions, complaining for the sake of complaining. Templars still have all the edges in the world when it comes to trial healing, Sorc/NB/DK healers aren't going to take Templar's place as the king of healing. They will only be able to join non-tryhard regular friendly trial runs (which they aren't allowed to do now).

Shard isn't "the only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities", Shard is "the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in trials".

You want Templar to be the only class allowed to heal in trials? Fine, then remove Templar's DPS capability. Right now Templar DDs can still apply for trial runs, as their DPS is totally viable, not far behind sorc and way above nightblade.

Have u played a templar? You should give it a try sometime.

As a matter of fact, I do.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

Care to elaborate?

So instead you want every other class to suck at healing because now no one can restore resources, specifically stamina. I hope that's clear enough.

I just wish theyd stop kneejerk reacting to things they know is coming. Put some forethought into the changes instead of trying to push the current and most immediate money grab.

me_ming wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

So instead you want every healer (whatever class you are in) to suck. lol

What irks me about your poorly assessed comments is that you think the Templar healer's defining skills should be removed because any other class does not have it. THAT in itself tells me that other classes aren't suppose to be defacto healers in trials and raids. What you haven't considered (and I am sure you can find this in many in the forum posts) that there are healer NBs and healer sorcs and healer DKs who have completed vtrials. That tells me one thing, your healer NB/sorc/DK is the problem. Not the class. Maybe these other healer NBs/Sorcs/DKs are more skilled, because heck they completed it. So why again are you saying that Templars should be nerf to the ground? Is it because so unskilled healers will have a better chance at raiding?

Another thing if other classes wants their shards, let me have my cloak or crystal frags as well. Because I sure want to be a stealthy templar without using invis pots.

PS

To OP:

Thank you for posting. I hope those other classes who wants to do vtrials and raid (PvP and PvE) understand why Templar healers are outraged by these changes. It's not because we don't want other classes to heal better than Templars, it's because there was no reason why ZoS should have nerfed the class other than the fact that they just want the Warden to be more viable than any other class. Again, I still believe people will buy Morrowind regardless of the nerfs.

You are one of the people (so many of them I lost count lol) who don't even read what I have written and directly assume that I advocate to nerf Templars lol. I want ZOS to revert the stupid repentance nerf, I want ZoS to buff other aspects of Templar (like CC, making Shard disorienting multiple targets or something similar) etc, but hey, who cares? You see Templar and non-Templar in one sentence I you directly assume that I want to nerf Templar, because, reasons lol.

What irks me about your poorly assessed comments is that you think I said "the Templar healer's defining skills should be removed because any other class does not have it". Please show me exactly where I said I wanted to remove anything from Templar. I only said other classes should be able to have access to a something that restores stamina to the group, I have never said about removing anything from Templar. You sure you have read any of my comments before replying?

A few Non-Templar healers have done vet trials doesn't mean non-Templar healers are viable. It means that they technically have a Templar DD throw shard for them to compensate for their lack of ability to do the job of a healer. Rkugamz + Master restro don't cut it. Ask those non-Templar healers if they want to have some an ability that can feed stamina to the group, and I tell you this, every single one of them will say "yes please".

Why do you need Frag? This statement proves that you don't understand the root of the issue, at all. As a Templar, you don't need Frag to do the job of a DD, you can pull reasonable and completely viable DPS. As a healer, you need an ability to restore stamina to the group, as it is your job. Monopolizing an ability to feed stamina to the group is similar to monopolizing Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash. You want them to remove Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash from 1HS skil lline and transfer them to DK's class skill line? Yes, No? Simple question.

Oh, let me predict the future: as always, you will avoid all of my points and continue to complain about how I want to nerf Templar. I fail to see how you even come to the conclusion that I want to nerf the Templar. But hey, people surprise me all the time.