Disappointed - changes not drastic enough

Arenguros · April 2017

Yes, this is a thread coming from the opposite direction than most players feel, but this is about a healthy, diverse PvE.

So, after reading the patch notes, mainly focusing on the changes to sustain and champion points, i was quite exstatic.
Finally the meta could change, away from static rotations, towards dynamic gameplay.
Finally Champion points would offer more choices with mandatory sustain stars being removed and others weakened.
This could be a huge step towards more builds being competetive, seeing as the floor should be raised and the ceiling lowered.

So I went to PTS to test it out and was severely disappointed, there was barely any change noticeable.
You are still heavily rewarded for carrying as many dots/aoe/buffs as possible and this is the only way to come even close to the high dps-numbers of the best builds.
While players now have to incorporate heavy attacks in their rotation and gear towards sustain, this could not be farther from the active sustain management the game should have.
Champion point distribution still offers zero choice. You can mathematically calculate which distribution offers the largest dps increase / defense boost / sustain buff for each build.
Looking at the builds that would seem "viable" there seemed to be little change. Main bow / main 2h / core class builds are still severely underperforming when compared to the meta dw/bow and especially destro builds.

So what to do?
Seeing as this is the first expansion, a complete overhaul of the game could have been the way to go.
Obviously the release of Morrowind is too close for such drastic changes, but maybe this will be considered in a future patch.

Completely overhaul the champion point system, removing all mandatory stars and replacing them with utility.

As long as there are stars that increase dps/defenses/sustain players will take them and ignore anything else. If there are many options, this does not provide a choice, it just means someone has to calculate what is the best option and everyone will take it. This is the direct opposite of build diversity.
And even if there was some choice, what does it matter? Passive increases (aside from sustain) have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. If they are required you might as well bake them into the core abilities.

So what do we replace the current system with?
Just looking at the passives and other parts of the game gives lots of ideas.
From more inventory slots to more movement speed, more loot, better deals with fences, more space to put furnishing in homes, to skin changes or actual abilities.

Completely rebalance the skills costs and interactions, reducing automatic cleave and giving players the need to actively change their gameplay depending on the situation.

Aoe abilities should have their damage/healing reduced or their cost increased to the point where they are only useful against multiple enemies / for healing multiple injured allies. Change spam skills to be super strong, but have massive costs in order for them to be more like burst skills or "oh sh**"-buttons that you want to use in specific situations, but not in a general sustained rotation. (Needs to be split for PvP).

Again, the goal here should be to change the meta from "more skills in your rotation = more dps" to situational use of skills depending on single target vs aoe, bosses with vulnerable phases and so on. At the same time space on bars can be freed up for utility.

The same thing should obviously be true for healers. Away from one-button spamming buffbot/half-dps towards situational use of small and big heals, group heals and buffs.

Change the potion and ultimate systems to not just be be another thing you press on cooldown.

The current implementation of pots is awful. Tripots are used on cooldown to provide important buffs and sustain. This devalues a lot of otherwise good skills as the buffs are already present and is just generally mandatory.
A good alternative would be splitting the pots in two:
Potions that only replenish health can stay as they are, maybe even buff them a bit so they are good emergency buttons.
Potions that do anything else will now be "elixirs" that can be bound to a second key. They will provide unique and strong buffs for a short duration, but can only be used once per battle. (Precautions need to be made, so you can not "prepot" or otherwise get out of combat to reset this on any relevant encounter.) (Elixirs can not be used in pvp, obviously).
This would change pots from "used on cooldown" to situational use, like a burn phase or end of fight.
Ultimates serve a similar fate, being used as either a passive (dawnbreaker) or on cooldown. Most of them need to be changed to provide more utility instead of just raw damage (Consuming Darkness is a good positive example).

Item sets need to be rebalanced in order to be comparable.

The current philosophy seems to be: Sets that are harder to aquire need to be stronger. While the intent of this is understandable (get players to do trials and spend lots of gold on rare drop sets), this is just not healthy for the game. It means that the large amount of sets are completely useless in endgame, as they are simply outclassed by others. This means little diversity.
The only way to change this is to look at all the sets and get them roughly to the same values. Some builds may be better of with a specific set, but the general idea should be to have a large pool to choose from instead of a handful of obvious best sets for pretty much any build.

PvE and PvP should have a stronger split, with skills having different values or additional effects in each.

The current philosophy is to have both modes as similar as possible, so players can switch easily and will not be confused by different effects. While this is a nice intent - it just doesn't work.
PvE and PvP are so vastly different, if you just take a build from one to the other, you will be very inefficient.
This philosophy mostly leads to a large sum of skill morphs and item sets being never used in one game mode or the other. Again, less diversity and harder balancing.
A definite split could change this, with pvp-versions of many otherwise too strong skills.
You need to relearn the game anyway, so you might as well also learn altered values. I agree that skills should not be completely different.

The bow heavy attack needs to be auto-fire like all other heavy attacks.

This has been said so often and is such a small change, yet so important if you ever want bow to be an alternative. Yet if you want to preserve the old mechanic, just add a toggle to the gameplay options.

TL:DR
Changes are a small step in the right direction, but they fail to come through. More changes need to be made.

Fallewarrior · April 2017

I think you need to stop being a casual and actually start to play the game.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

D0ntevenL1ft · April 2017

Rofl i hope you have enough money to fund ZOS on your own because 99% of the real player base don't feel the same as you. Get that wallet ready bro.

Sydria · April 2017

I know not everyone has the same opinion, but could we please keep this discussion serious?
Thank you.

On Topic:

I agree the changes have the right intention: lower the ceiling and raise the floor, make sustain important again, break spam meta, etc. BUT didn't achieve this.

As far as I could test lowering the ceiling worked partially with the sustain changes. But on the other hand people are more forced than ever into one build direction (Heavy Attack Build).

Raising the floor did not work at all, quite the opposite.
My Twink Damage Character with no BIS gear could reach 24k DPS before - not much but enough for most lower content.
On the PTS I can't get DPS past 16k, even with Legendary Gear, Pots etc. (With sustain not being the problem)

On a positive note my Tank and Healers are not feeling the sustain nerf that much. Only the nerfed group utility seems to bother me. (e.g. group members starting to fight over Orbs/Shard for resources)

Regarding your suggestion:
Overhaul CP:

I agree that best CP can be calculated and a utility based system would prevent this. But I think this can be done at a later date - there are to many things that need to be addressed now.

On top of it I really enjoy the new CP Balance they added in here. Makes my CP distribution more flexible and my characters more well rounded.

Rebalance Gameplay

While I agree that a decision based gameplay is better than a Spam orientated, it's hard to achieve if you want to maintain a fast paced game.

Rebalance Sets

More options set wise are always welcome to me.
There might always be BIS sets, but making old ones more viable is good for diversity.

PvE and PvP Split

I kind of understand the point but the devs have made it clear that they do not intend to split them.

Bow heavy attack

This has been asked for a lot. The problem is that PvE kind of favours auto-release while solo-play and PvP need hold-option.
A toogle might be the solution.

Durham · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

Yes, this is a thread coming from the opposite direction than most players feel, but this is about a healthy, diverse PvE.

So, after reading the patch notes, mainly focusing on the changes to sustain and champion points, i was quite exstatic.
Finally the meta could change, away from static rotations, towards dynamic gameplay.
Finally Champion points would offer more choices with mandatory sustain stars being removed and others weakened.
This could be a huge step towards more builds being competetive, seeing as the floor should be raised and the ceiling lowered.

So I went to PTS to test it out and was severely disappointed, there was barely any change noticeable.
You are still heavily rewarded for carrying as many dots/aoe/buffs as possible and this is the only way to come even close to the high dps-numbers of the best builds.
While players now have to incorporate heavy attacks in their rotation and gear towards sustain, this could not be farther from the active sustain management the game should have.
Champion point distribution still offers zero choice. You can mathematically calculate which distribution offers the largest dps increase / defense boost / sustain buff for each build.
Looking at the builds that would seem "viable" there seemed to be little change. Main bow / main 2h / core class builds are still severely underperforming when compared to the meta dw/bow and especially destro builds.

So what to do?
Seeing as this is the first expansion, a complete overhaul of the game could have been the way to go.
Obviously the release of Morrowind is too close for such drastic changes, but maybe this will be considered in a future patch.

Completely overhaul the champion point system, removing all mandatory stars and replacing them with utility.
As long as there are stars that increase dps/defenses/sustain players will take them and ignore anything else. If there are many options, this does not provide a choice, it just means someone has to calculate what is the best option and everyone will take it. This is the direct opposite of build diversity.
And even if there was some choice, what does it matter? Passive increases (aside from sustain) have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. If they are required you might as well bake them into the core abilities.

So what do we replace the current system with?
Just looking at the passives and other parts of the game gives lots of ideas.
From more inventory slots to more movement speed, more loot, better deals with fences, more space to put furnishing in homes, to skin changes or actual abilities.

Completely rebalance the skills costs and interactions, reducing automatic cleave and giving players the need to actively change their gameplay depending on the situation.
Aoe abilities should have their damage/healing reduced or their cost increased to the point where they are only useful against multiple enemies / for healing multiple injured allies. Change spam skills to be super strong, but have massive costs in order for them to be more like burst skills or "oh sh**"-buttons that you want to use in specific situations, but not in a general sustained rotation. (Needs to be split for PvP).

Again, the goal here should be to change the meta from "more skills in your rotation = more dps" to situational use of skills depending on single target vs aoe, bosses with vulnerable phases and so on. At the same time space on bars can be freed up for utility.

The same thing should obviously be true for healers. Away from one-button spamming buffbot/half-dps towards situational use of small and big heals, group heals and buffs.

Change the potion and ultimate systems to not just be be another thing you press on cooldown.
The current implementation of pots is awful. Tripots are used on cooldown to provide important buffs and sustain. This devalues a lot of otherwise good skills as the buffs are already present and is just generally mandatory.
A good alternative would be splitting the pots in two:
Potions that only replenish health can stay as they are, maybe even buff them a bit so they are good emergency buttons.
Potions that do anything else will now be "elixirs" that can be bound to a second key. They will provide unique and strong buffs for a short duration, but can only be used once per battle. (Precautions need to be made, so you can not "prepot" or otherwise get out of combat to reset this on any relevant encounter.) (Elixirs can not be used in pvp, obviously).
This would change pots from "used on cooldown" to situational use, like a burn phase or end of fight.
Ultimates serve a similar fate, being used as either a passive (dawnbreaker) or on cooldown. Most of them need to be changed to provide more utility instead of just raw damage (Consuming Darkness is a good positive example).

Item sets need to be rebalanced in order to be comparable.
The current philosophy seems to be: Sets that are harder to aquire need to be stronger. While the intent of this is understandable (get players to do trials and spend lots of gold on rare drop sets), this is just not healthy for the game. It means that the large amount of sets are completely useless in endgame, as they are simply outclassed by others. This means little diversity.
The only way to change this is to look at all the sets and get them roughly to the same values. Some builds may be better of with a specific set, but the general idea should be to have a large pool to choose from instead of a handful of obvious best sets for pretty much any build.

PvE and PvP should have a stronger split, with skills having different values or additional effects in each.
The current philosophy is to have both modes as similar as possible, so players can switch easily and will not be confused by different effects. While this is a nice intent - it just doesn't work.
PvE and PvP are so vastly different, if you just take a build from one to the other, you will be very inefficient.
This philosophy mostly leads to a large sum of skill morphs and item sets being never used in one game mode or the other. Again, less diversity and harder balancing.
A definite split could change this, with pvp-versions of many otherwise too strong skills.
You need to relearn the game anyway, so you might as well also learn altered values. I agree that skills should not be completely different.

The bow heavy attack needs to be auto-fire like all other heavy attacks.
This has been said so often and is such a small change, yet so important if you ever want bow to be an alternative. Yet if you want to preserve the old mechanic, just add a toggle to the gameplay options.

TL:DR
Changes are a small step in the right direction, but they fail to come through. More changes need to be made.

I'm not sure what you are saying
-VIGOR 40% to 50% Increase in cost for most stam users
-42% decrease in resource return in heavy armor
-10- 20% blanket increase in stam costs for most stam users
- blocking 50% increase in cost

Now I'm going to show you 1 of the class changes...
60% stam return nerf helping hands passive Stam DK
30% stam return nerf for battle roar passive
-25% healing from vigor keep in mind the cost is up 40%

This is drastic .... This is the math ... most of the nerfs have been 10 to 20% nerfs to various things over the years ... but some classes received 6 major stacked nerfs...

For some classes and meta the nerfs are lighter but some things were completely obliterated.....when there was no reason for it... there is less diversity and builds one of the main selling points of this game..

Arenguros · April 2017

@Sydria
Thx for the positive and honest feedback.
I'm fully aware a rework to the CP system is not top priority, simply pointing out the CP in it's current or PTS iteration is not good. Like many talent systems of MMOs of the past it merely gives the illusion of choice.

Sadly ZOS stance on a PvP split seems quite strong.
Still in the past they did change their opinions about other parts of the game severly.

Durham wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying
(...)
This is drastic .... This is the math ... most of the nerfs have been 10 to 20% nerfs to various things over the years ... but some classes received 6 major stacked nerfs...

For some classes and meta the nerfs are lighter but some things were completely obliterated.....when there was no reason for it... there is less diversity and builds one of the main selling points of this game..

Drastic was probably not the right word.
What I meant is the changes are a good start in the right direction. But if you leave it there, the game might even be off worse than before.
We don't need even more nerfs to sustain - we need a redefinition what sustain or a rotation is.

Obviously you weren't reading the whole post, as I'm not disagreeing with you:
We need more build diversity and balance, not less.

DHale · April 2017

Sounds like a player who would like to compete but can't.

D0ntevenL1ft · April 2017

Sydria wrote: »

I know not everyone has the same opinion, but could we please keep this discussion serious?
Thank you.

On Topic:

I agree the changes have the right intention: lower the ceiling and raise the floor, make sustain important again, break spam meta, etc. BUT didn't achieve this.

As far as I could test lowering the ceiling worked partially with the sustain changes. But on the other hand people are more forced than ever into one build direction (Heavy Attack Build).

Raising the floor did not work at all, quite the opposite.
My Twink Damage Character with no BIS gear could reach 24k DPS before - not much but enough for most lower content.
On the PTS I can't get DPS past 16k, even with Legendary Gear, Pots etc. (With sustain not being the problem)

On a positive note my Tank and Healers are not feeling the sustain nerf that much. Only the nerfed group utility seems to bother me. (e.g. group members starting to fight over Orbs/Shard for resources)

Regarding your suggestion:
Overhaul CP:
I agree that best CP can be calculated and a utility based system would prevent this. But I think this can be done at a later date - there are to many things that need to be addressed now.

On top of it I really enjoy the new CP Balance they added in here. Makes my CP distribution more flexible and my characters more well rounded.

Rebalance Gameplay
While I agree that a decision based gameplay is better than a Spam orientated, it's hard to achieve if you want to maintain a fast paced game.

Rebalance Sets
More options set wise are always welcome to me.
There might always be BIS sets, but making old ones more viable is good for diversity.

PvE and PvP Split
I kind of understand the point but the devs have made it clear that they do not intend to split them.

Bow heavy attack
This has been asked for a lot. The problem is that PvE kind of favours auto-release while solo-play and PvP need hold-option.
A toogle might be the solution.

Id rather not keep the discussion serious when its ridiculous. If 99% of the population has an opinion its most likely true; therefore any discussion saying the changes ARENT DRASTIC ENOUGH should be disregarded. Post stupid threads get stupid responses its not a hard concept.

Durham · April 2017

Drastic was probably not the right word.

Arenguros wrote: »

@Sydria
Thx for the positive and honest feedback.
I'm fully aware a rework to the CP system is not top priority, simply pointing out the CP in it's current or PTS iteration is not good. Like many talent systems of MMOs of the past it merely gives the illusion of choice.

Sadly ZOS stance on a PvP split seems quite strong.
Still in the past they did change their opinions about other parts of the game severly.

Durham wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying
(...)
This is drastic .... This is the math ... most of the nerfs have been 10 to 20% nerfs to various things over the years ... but some classes received 6 major stacked nerfs...

For some classes and meta the nerfs are lighter but some things were completely obliterated.....when there was no reason for it... there is less diversity and builds one of the main selling points of this game..

Drastic was probably not the right word.
What I meant is the changes are a good start in the right direction. But if you leave it there, the game might even be off worse than before.
We don't need even more nerfs to sustain - we need a redefinition what sustain or a rotation is.

Obviously you weren't reading the whole post, as I'm not disagreeing with you:
We need more build diversity and balance, not less.

60% is drastic
50% is drastic

When you completely destroy meta's in the game its drastic

battleground testing (example)
Healing templar 980K healing
Healing warden 1.8 million
This is drastic

This is drastic I have been around since beta this the most drastic nerf since late beta in the game.....

I agree with you on some of the issues, like diversity .... However many skills that give you this diversity have been nerfed to the ground ... I understand what you are saying but this is the wrong approach ... This will not go live !! If it does it will rip this game apart from the inside...

My biggest criticism was the insult to the intelligence to the player base ... So as players read nerfs that made countless hours of gear farming completely worthless it was called a buff by ZOS .... For example (Helping Hands Passive- This is a buff if you have less then 17k stamina lol there is no stamina build that has 17k stamina and most magicka builds have numbers close to this !!!! This was a freaking huge nerf .... of 60% for DK Stam users .....

clv · April 2017

"rebalance"

[Deleted User] · April 2017

Hello everyone,

This post is to let you know that we've had to remove several comments from this thread for being nonconstructive and unneeded. While it is perfectly fine to give an opposing opinion, please do so in a civil and respectful manner. Keep in mind that flaming is against the Forum Rules.

Thank you for understanding.

davey1107 · April 2017

2 minutes. It literally took two minutes for someone to see your post and decide to be a total $@&&#%. Did he even read it?

I'm not on the PTS, but when I saw the patch notes I considered a lot of the things you discuss. The lead-up to this was a lot of talk about "big changes" and bringing resource management back. I have characters of all classes/resources. What I see in the notes indicate that I'm going to continue to struggle on the ones I struggle with now (stam) and the ones that seem OP will continue to be OP (sorc, Magplar).

One thing that has been confusing to me since IC dropped is the stam vs magic approach. This patch feels like the point where resource scarcity began moving apart, with my magic characters running low less and less and my stamina characters remaining pretty even. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me since stamina is required to block and roll...if anything, it feels like there should be abilities and sets that help restore. (Let's see them add regen to shuffle equivalent to harness magicka and see what happens).

I've often considered that the stamina principles come from pvp complaints. And indeed...stam characters can be strong. But at the same time I've seen change after change aimed at "fixing" this when there are perfectly good fixes available in the CP tree already. Don't like being stunned and ganked? Invest in CPs that prevent this rather than piling in power CPs.

Whatever the cause, the problem is that my stam characters are not viable in hard pve, and they struggle with some stuff in pvp that magic toons have been needlessly given a pass on. For over a year the best expert players (not me, lol) have been posting hard data about the most fundamental issues, and this patch looks like ZOS completely ignored these and made a lot of middling changes that, oddly, look like they hurt stam far more than magic. It's a really weird set of notes...I don't seem to be the only one thinking this.

LiquidPony · April 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

2 minutes. It literally took two minutes for someone to see your post and decide to be a total $@&&#%. Did he even read it?

I'm not on the PTS, but when I saw the patch notes I considered a lot of the things you discuss. The lead-up to this was a lot of talk about "big changes" and bringing resource management back. I have characters of all classes/resources. What I see in the notes indicate that I'm going to continue to struggle on the ones I struggle with now (stam) and the ones that seem OP will continue to be OP (sorc, Magplar).

One thing that has been confusing to me since IC dropped is the stam vs magic approach. This patch feels like the point where resource scarcity began moving apart, with my magic characters running low less and less and my stamina characters remaining pretty even. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me since stamina is required to block and roll...if anything, it feels like there should be abilities and sets that help restore. (Let's see them add regen to shuffle equivalent to harness magicka and see what happens).

I've often considered that the stamina principles come from pvp complaints. And indeed...stam characters can be strong. But at the same time I've seen change after change aimed at "fixing" this when there are perfectly good fixes available in the CP tree already. Don't like being stunned and ganked? Invest in CPs that prevent this rather than piling in power CPs.

Whatever the cause, the problem is that my stam characters are not viable in hard pve, and they struggle with some stuff in pvp that magic toons have been needlessly given a pass on. For over a year the best expert players (not me, lol) have been posting hard data about the most fundamental issues, and this patch looks like ZOS completely ignored these and made a lot of middling changes that, oddly, look like they hurt stam far more than magic. It's a really weird set of notes...I don't seem to be the only one thinking this.

@davey1107

How was stam hurt more than magic? Heavy weaving is far more viable on stam DPS and most of the group support nerfs are targeted towards Magicka users as stam can more easily self-sustain.

I'm guessing that defensive CP changes will actually increase PvE resistances overall and reduce the necessity of shields. Will try to get some hard numbers on that on PTS this weekend.

The one thing that hasn't been addressed is AoE damage. Caltrops changes help that a bit but the destro ult is just ridiculously OP and stam has nothing that can compete with it.

DragonBound · April 2017

I just want to add to the top most people want build diversity and dynamic gameplay not sure why people in this thread are trying to say otherwise but allot of people do not feel this patch is creating my build diversity.

ParaNostram · April 2017

Can agree, changes really don't feel that drastic, except if you're a Templar healer specifically.

Tiitus · April 2017

Build diversity is gone with this patch you will have one meta/gear setup for tanking, one meta/gear setup for healing and one meta/gear setup for dps... yes you can do whatever you want but with these changes as is, you will gimp yurself that is if you plan on beating any endgame group content... gone are the days of builds like NB saptank it was obliterated with these changes, its not even a case of change it up a lil bit and might work out. nope it was straight up made not viable...

if you are a sorc and say "changes really don't feel that drastic"... just dont....

Sydria · April 2017

On the topic of build diversity:

I think there will always be a best build that performs better than anything else in any game. The problem here in ESO is that the best build is performing WAY BETTER than anything else. On live this can be up to 300 % better DPS at the same gear quality (BIS gear, best weapon choice and rotation VS fitting gear that is not BIS set, sub-optimal weapon like 2h or bow, similar rotation) - that's just broken.

The current changes are reducing damage overall, which is good for the top end of the spectrum (e.g. 60k DPS on live) but sadly also affects the lower end spectrum (e.g. 20k DPS live).
Build Diversity can not be achived with those changes, because the differences between weapons, top and lower end as well as magicka vs stamina DPS remains the same.

[Edited to remove reference to removed content]

Draqone · April 2017

BREAKING NEWS

Optimised DPS requires an optimised build!

/BREAKING NEWS

ZOS_Ragnar · April 2017

We have removed some posts that were off topic and discussing previous moderation. While we are happy to discuss specific moderation-related actions with you one on one, we do not allow the discussion of these actions publicly on our forums.

Saturn · April 2017

The game is already 3 years old. I, and probably lots of other players, don't want to have to relearn how to play the game again. If you want a game that plays differently I think you should go look elsewhere, since encouraging the developers to completely change the way the game plays is just inviting even poorer decision-making than they have already shown themselves capable of.

Dixa · April 2017

Tiitus wrote: »

Build diversity is gone with this patch you will have one meta/gear setup for tanking, one meta/gear setup for healing and one meta/gear setup for dps... yes you can do whatever you want but with these changes as is, you will gimp yurself that is if you plan on beating any endgame group content... gone are the days of builds like NB saptank it was obliterated with these changes, its not even a case of change it up a lil bit and might work out. nope it was straight up made not viable...

if you are a sorc and say "changes really don't feel that drastic"... just dont....

you're only 30% right.

the tanking and healing meta is not going to change. it has and will continue to be dk's as tanks and templars as healers. in fact the warden is not likely to usurp the templar as a healer given how their heals are either a) short narrow cones, b) 6 second delayed aoe's and c) require the warden to be actively weapon attacking with either a lightning or resto staff while rather close to the tank. the only cool thing they got is the vines due to the potential raid wide healing the debuff leeching vines applies. this is of course assumptions based entirely on what has been printed about that class.

many are assuming the betty will remove a debuff on everyone on cast but it doesnt say it does that and i have a feeling it only removes one off the warden, meaning that templars will continue to be the cleansing kings/queens.

dps however has swung around several times. all 4 classes have had their time in the spot light as either magicka or stamina, single target or aoe. right now it's sorcs and for aoe it will continue to be mag sorcs in morrowind without additional changes.

however for single target Alcast and others are of teh opinion that the stam dk is going to reign supreme in morrowind.

so actually you are less than 30% right that the meta is going to change.

Dixa · April 2017

Saturn wrote: »

The game is already 3 years old. I, and probably lots of other players, don't want to have to relearn how to play the game again. If you want a game that plays differently I think you should go look elsewhere, since encouraging the developers to completely change the way the game plays is just inviting even poorer decision-making than they have already shown themselves capable of.

all mmorpgs change over time. this is a necessary evil due to competition and the need to not just retain existing players but to bring in new ones and get those that barely tried it to return.

change is good. what is not good is having an opinion when you have not personally been on the pts.

alcast's thread should prob be stickied.

Durham · April 2017

Pallio wrote: »

Is the OP a Republican congressmen, just curious.

No need for the politics

Dixa wrote: »

Tiitus wrote: »

Build diversity is gone with this patch you will have one meta/gear setup for tanking, one meta/gear setup for healing and one meta/gear setup for dps... yes you can do whatever you want but with these changes as is, you will gimp yurself that is if you plan on beating any endgame group content... gone are the days of builds like NB saptank it was obliterated with these changes, its not even a case of change it up a lil bit and might work out. nope it was straight up made not viable...

if you are a sorc and say "changes really don't feel that drastic"... just dont....

you're only 30% right.

the tanking and healing meta is not going to change. it has and will continue to be dk's as tanks and templars as healers. in fact the warden is not likely to usurp the templar as a healer given how their heals are either a) short narrow cones, b) 6 second delayed aoe's and c) require the warden to be actively weapon attacking with either a lightning or resto staff while rather close to the tank. the only cool thing they got is the vines due to the potential raid wide healing the debuff leeching vines applies. this is of course assumptions based entirely on what has been printed about that class.

many are assuming the betty will remove a debuff on everyone on cast but it doesnt say it does that and i have a feeling it only removes one off the warden, meaning that templars will continue to be the cleansing kings/queens.

dps however has swung around several times. all 4 classes have had their time in the spot light as either magicka or stamina, single target or aoe. right now it's sorcs and for aoe it will continue to be mag sorcs in morrowind without additional changes.

however for single target Alcast and others are of teh opinion that the stam dk is going to reign supreme in morrowind.

so actually you are less than 30% right that the meta is going to change.

In PVE yes but in PVP they got destroyed ....

ashenb14_ESO · April 2017

Durham wrote: »

In PVE yes but in PVP they got destroyed ....

you must understand, zos can do no wrong and make no mistakes.... they are fine...any change zos makes is fine/good/for the best...saying otherwise is blaspheme..

im sure these changes will make both pvp and pve alot more fun....alot more time consuming...i mean spending 15min killing the same boss you killed in around 5min before....MUCH MUCH MUCH more fun...

spending 3 days rather then 3hours grinding a dungeon to get a specific gear drop....should be alot more fun

all these changes will make the game sooo much more fun, people will love it, it will be grate!!!wonderful!!!

LorDrek · April 2017

ashenb14_ESO wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

In PVE yes but in PVP they got destroyed ....

you must understand, zos can do no wrong and make no mistakes.... they are fine...any change zos makes is fine/good/for the best...saying otherwise is blaspheme..

im sure these changes will make both pvp and pve alot more fun....alot more time consuming...i mean spending 15min killing the same boss you killed in around 5min before....MUCH MUCH MUCH more fun...

spending 3 days rather then 3hours grinding a dungeon to get a specific gear drop....should be alot more fun

all these changes will make the game sooo much more fun, people will love it, it will be grate!!!wonderful!!!

You build a character for three years and the last patch that destroys, it is not fun. From release game is the worst patch.

idk · April 2017

@Arenguros

While players now have to incorporate heavy attacks in their rotation and gear towards sustain, this could not be farther from the active sustain management the game should have.

There really is not more that can be done for "active sustain management"

Champion point distribution still offers zero choice. You can mathematically calculate which distribution offers the largest dps increase / defense boost / sustain buff for each build.

It will always be the case we can mathematically determine the best CP builds just as it we can mathematically determine the best gear sets. It is the case for any MMO that offers a glimmer of choice.

You are still heavily rewarded for carrying as many dots/aoe/buffs as possible and this is the only way to come even close to the high dps-numbers of the best builds.

In pretty much any game there are the best rotations and skills to use. These change with balance patches, but an optimal build and rotation is always determined.

However, this is the most significant change I have ever seen in an MMO with the second biggest change coming from patch 1.6. Game play on PTS is very different than on live. The changes to resources management is not trivial.

Pops_ND_Irish · April 2017

This is a switch !

Arenguros · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

While players now have to incorporate heavy attacks in their rotation and gear towards sustain, this could not be farther from the active sustain management the game should have.

There really is not more that can be done for "active sustain management"

There are skills like equilibrium, dark exchange or leeching strikes that could fill this role.
There is the option to not use the most expensive ability and instead opt for a cheaper one.

Yes all this would require to actively watch resources and decide in combat what to use, instead of having a fixed rotation.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Champion point distribution still offers zero choice. You can mathematically calculate which distribution offers the largest dps increase / defense boost / sustain buff for each build.

It will always be the case we can mathematically determine the best CP builds just as it we can mathematically determine the best gear sets. It is the case for any MMO that offers a glimmer of choice.

Which is why I suggested to get rid of the current performance increases in the CP system and replace them with utility and out of combat benefits.
Furthermore if the best option is slightly better than others this is fine.
Looking at VO this is not a slightly better, it's obviously better and unique in than it already gives such a strong increase with 3 pieces.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

You are still heavily rewarded for carrying as many dots/aoe/buffs as possible and this is the only way to come even close to the high dps-numbers of the best builds.

In pretty much any game there are the best rotations and skills to use. These change with balance patches, but an optimal build and rotation is always determined.

Absolutely true.
But looking at the current options. There are only 2: destro and dw/bow.
All classes essentially play the same. They may switch out 2-3 abilities, but that's it.
Even if bow and 2h were viable options (as in within 5% of the best), they still would have the same playstyle of stacking dots/aoes/buffs while filling the gaps with a spam skill or heavy attacks.

Why can we not have a playstyle that focuses on slower heavier attacks instead of dots?
Why not a playstyle with a lot of procs and interactions between skills?

hedna123b14_ESO · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

Yes, this is a thread coming from the opposite direction than most players feel, but this is about a healthy, diverse PvE.

So, after reading the patch notes, mainly focusing on the changes to sustain and champion points, i was quite exstatic.
Finally the meta could change, away from static rotations, towards dynamic gameplay.
Finally Champion points would offer more choices with mandatory sustain stars being removed and others weakened.
This could be a huge step towards more builds being competetive, seeing as the floor should be raised and the ceiling lowered.

So I went to PTS to test it out and was severely disappointed, there was barely any change noticeable.
You are still heavily rewarded for carrying as many dots/aoe/buffs as possible and this is the only way to come even close to the high dps-numbers of the best builds.
While players now have to incorporate heavy attacks in their rotation and gear towards sustain, this could not be farther from the active sustain management the game should have.
Champion point distribution still offers zero choice. You can mathematically calculate which distribution offers the largest dps increase / defense boost / sustain buff for each build.
Looking at the builds that would seem "viable" there seemed to be little change. Main bow / main 2h / core class builds are still severely underperforming when compared to the meta dw/bow and especially destro builds.

So what to do?
Seeing as this is the first expansion, a complete overhaul of the game could have been the way to go.
Obviously the release of Morrowind is too close for such drastic changes, but maybe this will be considered in a future patch.

Completely overhaul the champion point system, removing all mandatory stars and replacing them with utility.
As long as there are stars that increase dps/defenses/sustain players will take them and ignore anything else. If there are many options, this does not provide a choice, it just means someone has to calculate what is the best option and everyone will take it. This is the direct opposite of build diversity.
And even if there was some choice, what does it matter? Passive increases (aside from sustain) have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. If they are required you might as well bake them into the core abilities.

So what do we replace the current system with?
Just looking at the passives and other parts of the game gives lots of ideas.
From more inventory slots to more movement speed, more loot, better deals with fences, more space to put furnishing in homes, to skin changes or actual abilities.

Completely rebalance the skills costs and interactions, reducing automatic cleave and giving players the need to actively change their gameplay depending on the situation.
Aoe abilities should have their damage/healing reduced or their cost increased to the point where they are only useful against multiple enemies / for healing multiple injured allies. Change spam skills to be super strong, but have massive costs in order for them to be more like burst skills or "oh sh**"-buttons that you want to use in specific situations, but not in a general sustained rotation. (Needs to be split for PvP).

Again, the goal here should be to change the meta from "more skills in your rotation = more dps" to situational use of skills depending on single target vs aoe, bosses with vulnerable phases and so on. At the same time space on bars can be freed up for utility.

The same thing should obviously be true for healers. Away from one-button spamming buffbot/half-dps towards situational use of small and big heals, group heals and buffs.

Change the potion and ultimate systems to not just be be another thing you press on cooldown.
The current implementation of pots is awful. Tripots are used on cooldown to provide important buffs and sustain. This devalues a lot of otherwise good skills as the buffs are already present and is just generally mandatory.
A good alternative would be splitting the pots in two:
Potions that only replenish health can stay as they are, maybe even buff them a bit so they are good emergency buttons.
Potions that do anything else will now be "elixirs" that can be bound to a second key. They will provide unique and strong buffs for a short duration, but can only be used once per battle. (Precautions need to be made, so you can not "prepot" or otherwise get out of combat to reset this on any relevant encounter.) (Elixirs can not be used in pvp, obviously).
This would change pots from "used on cooldown" to situational use, like a burn phase or end of fight.
Ultimates serve a similar fate, being used as either a passive (dawnbreaker) or on cooldown. Most of them need to be changed to provide more utility instead of just raw damage (Consuming Darkness is a good positive example).

Item sets need to be rebalanced in order to be comparable.
The current philosophy seems to be: Sets that are harder to aquire need to be stronger. While the intent of this is understandable (get players to do trials and spend lots of gold on rare drop sets), this is just not healthy for the game. It means that the large amount of sets are completely useless in endgame, as they are simply outclassed by others. This means little diversity.
The only way to change this is to look at all the sets and get them roughly to the same values. Some builds may be better of with a specific set, but the general idea should be to have a large pool to choose from instead of a handful of obvious best sets for pretty much any build.

PvE and PvP should have a stronger split, with skills having different values or additional effects in each.
The current philosophy is to have both modes as similar as possible, so players can switch easily and will not be confused by different effects. While this is a nice intent - it just doesn't work.
PvE and PvP are so vastly different, if you just take a build from one to the other, you will be very inefficient.
This philosophy mostly leads to a large sum of skill morphs and item sets being never used in one game mode or the other. Again, less diversity and harder balancing.
A definite split could change this, with pvp-versions of many otherwise too strong skills.
You need to relearn the game anyway, so you might as well also learn altered values. I agree that skills should not be completely different.

The bow heavy attack needs to be auto-fire like all other heavy attacks.
This has been said so often and is such a small change, yet so important if you ever want bow to be an alternative. Yet if you want to preserve the old mechanic, just add a toggle to the gameplay options.

TL:DR
Changes are a small step in the right direction, but they fail to come through. More changes need to be made.

Im really hoping that your OPINION will be drowned out by the near unanimous opposition of the playerbase...

NBrookus · April 2017

Saturn wrote: »

The game is already 3 years old. I, and probably lots of other players, don't want to have to relearn how to play the game again. If you want a game that plays differently I think you should go look elsewhere, since encouraging the developers to completely change the way the game plays is just inviting even poorer decision-making than they have already shown themselves capable of.

I'm fine with learning something new.

It's the 50 hours of not-having-fun tedious gear grinding for each new build I try that may or may not work that has me grumpy. And in PvP there is no one BiS build, it depends on what you are doing so I run different builds for solo versus small group.