hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!

We all know that Templar will still be the best class for healing, numbers say so, actual PTS testing says so, all the complaints about "I made Templar because Templar #1 Healer now it isn't #1 Healer anymore" are just false fearmongering assumptions, complaining for the sake of complaining. Templars still have all the edges in the world when it comes to trial healing, Sorc/NB/DK healers aren't going to take Templar's place as the king of healing. They will only be able to join non-tryhard regular friendly trial runs (which they aren't allowed to do now).

Shard isn't "the only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities", Shard is "the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in trials".

You want Templar to be the only class allowed to heal in trials? Fine, then remove Templar's DPS capability. Right now Templar DDs can still apply for trial runs, as their DPS is totally viable, not far behind sorc and way above nightblade.

I'm gonna have to disagree regarding the PTS testing. Breath of Life is good but it isn't that good. Most healing in this game is achieved via Healing Springs, Rapid Regen, and then Breath of Life as a last resort. That one skill is not the determining factor as to who the best healer is.

ofSunhold wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Enemies should also be highly discouraged to enter the Templar's House, and enemies of the templar should also have an incentive to kick the Templar out of their house to reduce his effectiveness. Most of the skills of the Templar, among all 3 skill lines, do not reinforce such gameplay. Allies have little incentive to be close to the Templar, and enemies truly do not fear going near them (at least in PVP).

PvP is the reason I have always detested the "templar house" concept when it came up. Because no, that's not what it's like, not at all. There's a compelling reason so many PvP templars go vamp: elusive mist.

I have numerous ideas to overhauling Templar skills to make the house design a reality.

But, I'm not the developer.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that Warden's will become the top tier healers within several weeks on live. Most trials heals is HOT based anyway with the Restoration staff and Healing Springs. Warden's are HOT healers. Stacking HOTS in ESO has always been more effective than burst healing when it comes to trials.

Burst healing excels in PVP to counter burst damage. But the Warden will still excel in PVP due to things besides just their healing.

We are not allowed to talk about Warden's performance just yet as it violates NDA? So, we will have to wait and see.

All I can say is that spamming Springs will still be the main way to heal. If you take a look at Warden's Green Balance skill line, there's only one Fire-and-Forget HoT: Living Vines. There's a heal that bursts after 6 seconds and a buffs that restore health to allies with heavy attacks but I don't think many people can find a way to utilize those 2 in trials. (these infos are published by ZoS so it isn't violating NDA). Then, if you take a look at Templars, they also have their HoT: Ritual. So, people will still rely on Spring spamming in trials. And what is the best class for Spring spamming? Templar. With high Minor Mending uptime (and the only class that has it), Templar will be the class that can maintain the highest SPC uptime.

Warden has major mending but only after they heal a low health target with 1 of their heals. Gina has said that ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime to make sure that it's low (also, info published by ZOS), so as long as they keep it low enough, Templar will still be the king in healing.
Though, I am not a fan of giving Warden's major mending. I would like to give them minor mending instead, they can raise the threshold so it can be high, but it also means Warden's minor mending isn't reliable and Templar's minor mending is.

I am a fan of giving Wardens and Templars major mending, as they're classes with dedicated healing lines.

Then give it to others, or keep Major Resolve and Major Ward something exclusively available for DK, as DK is the only class with dedicated tanking skill line.

Aedric Spear ---> Tanking
Shadow ---> Tanking

Restoring Light - Healing
Earthen Heart - Healing
Siphoning - Healing

Sorcerer just doesn't quite fit the mold in this regard, but yes both of the other classes do have skill lines which involve tanking and healing. I disagree with your statement.

Aedric Spear isn't really a tanking line. It has one skill, Sun Shield, to help achieve that. And it only scales off of max health.

Honestly, sun shield needs to scale based off of max Magicka and Max Health. Maybe 20% for each. One of the morphs needs to be Health/stamina scaling.

It's the perfect example a good skill with subpar morphs. If the morphs were better and more specific it would help the templar achieve their design.

cavakthestampede wrote: »

Templars have minor mending in addition to major availability. Their heals will stay stronger. They also already adressed warden uptime on major in a later comment and will review it

Sure... major mending is "available"... after a heavy attack with a restro staff, just like any other class can access major mending oh well exept the warden: they get it when they do mending.

I don't really know about you, but beeing forced to equip a specific weapon and doing a specific attack just get the best result for 1/3 of my class skills is incredibly appealing. Even more so when a shiny new class can be bought that does just that without any need of equipping a specific weapon OR doing a specific attack OR any need to invest magika or stamina to get this buff at exactly the time that its needed.

Adding to it I didn't knew that nightblades or sorcercers or dragonnights had to use a specific weapon and game mechanic to get the major buffs, supporting their play working.

really, templars are such drama queens.

[/not funny]

i play 2 chars

1 stam DK
1 templar healer

both got the nerf train hard

*** it i jump on the sorc train and reroll a stam/mag sorc. 99% of all players will be sorcs soon, most broken op class atm

cavakthestampede wrote: »

Hmm mm well as a primarily Nightblade healer using a restoration staff for major mending isnt difficult at all, and with the sustain changes chances are good play will involve heavy attacking that often anyway.

And again, templars will have both major and minor mending, which still puts them at an advantage.

And as I mentioned previously the warden major mending uptime is already being nerfed.

Lots of smoke, no fire.

Well, then please explain in detail how I can buff a 4-6s channeling heal with a buff available for 1,5/3s after a heavy attack... sry I just do not see this happening. Even my supposedly OP healing skill has a casttime of 1,5s - I think its really gonna be tough already to get a major mending on this one in heavy combat situations... especially since i now have to stand "correctly" to hit my targets at all. In-game it means I have to heavy attack, turn to face my allies and cast my spell for 1.5s without beeing interupted by whatever I just hit and hoping that my targets just stay where they are. Maybe one can plan this in PVE (I seriously doubt that), but in PVP this isn't a realistic scenario. I didn't even stress lag, right, well add that one too. And yeah these are the oh so powerfull skills that apparently demanded the removal of an 8s Major Mending buff from another of my class skills. Major mending wasn't for free.

The fast and easy healing skills are not the Problem, but they are not better then any of the healing skills available to everyone and that can be buffed by everyone using a restro staff as well. Those skills that make the templar shine in healing and that mathematically produce the so called "burst healing" ZOS is worried about can't be buffed by major mending ... unless there is a second healer with a restrostaff just standing next to me and doing the same rota with a 2-3 second delay.

I guess this happens really often. Especially during trials ppl just love to synchronise their healers and all mobs are willing to dance along. And in PVP - well, you know PVP, you just have to ask nicely and everyone who just got whammed with your restro staff will wait at least 1,5 seconds before the next attack.

And finally, just to stress this point... as a mag nightblade how would you like to be forced to equipp 2 axes and make 2 dogdes before you can put on cloak? Even more, how would you like it if EVERYONE equipping 2 axes and making 2 dogdes gets invisible for a few seconds AND gains Major Evasion? Or would you rather prefer EVERYONE with 2 axes and after 2 dodges to be able to crit for the next 2 seconds?

Yeah ... thought so. (And yeah i know axes have never been the best choice for a stamblade ... but restro staff have never been the best choice for a magplar, as well)

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!

1) We all know that Templar will still be the best class for healing, numbers say so, actual PTS testing says so, all the complaints about "I made Templar because Templar #1 Healer now it isn't #1 Healer anymore" are just false fearmongering assumptions, complaining for the sake of complaining. Templars still have all the edges in the world when it comes to trial healing, Sorc/NB/DK healers aren't going to take Templar's place as the king of healing. They will only be able to join non-tryhard regular friendly trial runs (which they aren't allowed to do now).

2) Shard isn't "the only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities", Shard is "the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in trials".

3) You want Templar to be the only class allowed to heal in trials? Fine, then remove Templar's DPS capability. Right now Templar DDs can still apply for trial runs, as their DPS is totally viable, not far behind sorc and way above nightblade.

Regarding 1) As far as I read the closed beta comments, for trials the wardens HOT healing will be prefered over the slightly higher burst heals of templars, especially since the warden offers other support, too. But I guess we will know for sure when this patch hits live.

Regarding 2) Templars are NOT the only class allowed to heal in trials, sorry to say, but you really have to add a: "elitists run" and a "veteran" as well, to make your statement true for ... well, elitists trial runs in veteran mode...? Please consider that most people will be really really (truely) shocked to find out they loose the option loose the option to run a trial in vet mode with a handfull of jerks screamin at them what to do, where to stand and what to wear... (I hope you catch the irony ... to hell I'll spell it out for you: Even at this moment the notion of: A-healer- in-trials-has-to-be-a-templar is far from beeing true, its what really skilled players that enjoy a veteran run on a trail only with everyone doing a 100% job tell the rest of tamriel.

Regarding 3) No, and as said above, its not about templars beeing the only healer for trials, which they aren't. After this patch hits, if it hits the way its written down in the PTS notes, there is nothing left that adds anything "unique" to the templar class. Everything they can do can be done by some other class to a comparable extend and on top of it every other class can offer something special too. So no, by no means I am concerend about nor want templars beeing the only class to heal in elitists veteran trials ...

1) I doubt it. Warden has only one real HoT, Living Vines. Templar with high Minor Mending uptime will excel in spring spamming, which is the main way to heal in harder content. At the very least NB/Sorc/DK healers have no chance to dethrone Templar healers, Templar will still be the king in healing. As for Warden, I don't think we are allowed to talk about Warden's performance just yet, but ZoS said they will keep Warden's performance in check so let's see if they will keep their words on that.

2) I was talking about vet trials, not normal trials, sorry i wasn't making it clear. People can tank normal trials in medium armour so anything will work there. It doesn't have to be "elitist run", just regular vet trial runs from people who don't aim for score. Non-Templar healers are not allowed to do vet trials (unless the non-Templar healer is the raid leader so he can force the group to set up around him to compensate for his lack of ability to do the job of a healer, like having another Templar DD to throw shard for him). It's not that they just want to be mean, there's a reason for that, tanks in vet trials cannot survive without shards. Tank dies -> group wipes.
Templar DDs can do vet trials, so why can't non-Templar healers?

3) You missed the point. If shard should be something "unique" to the Templar class, then transfer Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK class skill lines, and call them "DK's unique abilities". Feeding stamina to the group is right now considered as the job of a healer, like how taunting and debuffing are jobs of a tank, keeping it exclusively for Templar is like making Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash only available for DK.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I laughed a little. Yes, Templars do have the strongest burst healing in the game. GOOD. Why fix something that isn't broken? As for Healing Ritual, it's quite clear that you don't play healers. HEALING RITUAL WILL NEVER BE A VIABLE HEAL. Due to the fast pace nature of the game you like to keep throwing in our face. This heal will never compete with the Resto Staff and its' Healing Springs. Of all the abilities in the game, it's one deserving of being completely removed and replaced with something UNIQUE and Supportive to our team. Perhaps deleting this trash skill and replacing it with something fresh that also grants us Major Mending would be a viable solution (lightbulb)? Don't tell me you can't do this, because you didn't have a problem deleting Blinding Flashes.

CALLED THEM OUT!! This is perfect, I've never seen Healing ritual be used once in my life during ESO. (keep in mind been here since one of the first betas) I've never spec'd that skill AT ALL. Currently it is not, Blinding Flashes was removed and they say our defense is "You have the best burst heal. Thats your defense." Well, now it wont be the best burst heal, can we remove Radiant Destruction(nerfed to the ground 100% useless) and give us back Blinding Flashes? No? Why not? You changed it once, change it again.

.... I had to Google Healing Ritual ESO, because I had no damn clue it was the second skill in our healing tree. Shows how useless it is.

@hmsdragonfly I just copy pasted...like you did.

You forget these:
1) Nightblade and Sorc don't have Major Mending -> unless they wave a restro staff, so they will have exactly the same acess to Major mending like templars.
2) DK's Major Mending uptime will be pathetic next patch. -> no argue about that, and I never claimed that shield was in any way an option. BUT again, any DK can wave a restro staff to gain major mending
3) No one has access to Minor Mending.-> everyone has the option to wear 5 pieces: Healers Habit an gain Minor mending uptime at all times.
4) Templar has access to high Minor Mending uptime, they can easily keep up Minor Mending 100%
(as for warden, ZOS promise they are adjusting Warden's Major Mending uptime so it's fair for every class, let's see if they will keep their words).

When it comes to spring spamming, Templar is the King. That's why Templar will be the best class for healing. -> In sum: Its ok if a class in ESO with a whole skillline dedicated to healing: needs to use a specific weapon, using a WEAPON trait most of the time and follow a specific game mechanic...(breathe)... to shine in what is their ONLY ability left they are under certain conditions better at, then other classes. Plus any other player can put on a amor set to gain minor mending uptime reliably 100% of the time and use the exact same mechanics to heal with the exact same ability?

You ARE kidding ... right?

If not please show me the shadow cloak - set .... oh and the flappy flappy set (for RP-reasons only, ofc). Oh yeah and the pet-sets pls.


As it stands in the pts: Templars will be the only class that are have a skillline to make them shine that can be challenged by any player that can wield a staff and has enough friends to drag him through dragonstar arena often enough to get the desired gear in the desired traits. Adding to the misery the only other thing templars used to do in serious endcontent: providing stamina to allies, was removed completely.

I fail to see how Templar is going to be king at anything after the patch hits, please I am open to suggestions, but banatalizing the butchery of a class doesn't help. Really it doesn't.

edit: Tell me what happens if a mag-warden uses said set, equipps a restro for the skill and spams healing springs? Yeah right, whenever one ally falls below 50% heals HIS healing springs will get the major mending buff. This much to your version of ... the best healer will remain a templar.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh, and I forgot to mention. In the past, the reason you didn't give Templars access to Major Sorcery is because we had Major Mending. So, where's my Major Sorcery? Tic toc.

In the mages guild tree, right where you left it.

@LadyLethalla wrote: »

Perhaps it's just the cynic in me - and this has probably already been said (don't have time to ready 5 pages of posts) - but it seems to me that the Templar nerfs are broadly aimed at making us buy Morrowind... just saying.

It has been suggested a couple of times, yes.

A guildmate asked me if I was planning to roll a warden healer. What I'm planning to do is bump wardens to the number two spot on my kill-order list in PvP, right after "the guy who is killing me," and before "healers"

+1

The OP says it well.

'Nuff said.