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An Explanation for the Resource Changes

dpencil1
dpencil1
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The devs attempted to provide an explanation in the patch notes, but I'd like to expand on that somewhat, perhaps to help clarify what I interpret their position to be. You don't have to agree with it, but it's important to try to see the big picture.

1. Different Skills for Different Situations

We're all familiar with the difference between PvE and PvP focused skills. Some skills are simply better in one environment and trivial in another. However, up until now, there has been little distinction between the various forms of PvE content in the game. What works for a trial boss fight will work for most everything else. It doesn't matter if the fight is going to be 10 seconds or 10 minutes. But with the changes to resource management, it has become prohibitive to use spamable skills throughout a prolonged fight. Does that mean these skills are relegated to the dust bin? No. In content that has shorter fights or PvP where they play into burst, they will still be used heavily. This creates a further degree of variety between how players approach different portions of content in the game.

2. The Cost for No Cool-Downs

The idea behind a skill cool-down is precisely to prevent it from being spammed. It is to disincentivize using just one skill so that the player will use a diversity of skills. Even in a cool-down system, you may still have resources which are consumed, but in a system without cool-downs the impact of resource management is the only means of curbing "spam" behavior. While this might not seem like a problem for dps skills like Force Pulse, it can be quite different when considering constant spamming of healing or shielding abilities. For example, if a Templar could infinitely spam one skill that healed everyone, why would he use any other skill? *cough* BoL *cough* In fact, this used to be a complaint, that Templar was boring because you could just use that one skill and nothing else. Yet over time the power creep of Champion Points and new gear sets has left the player base without much concern over resource management for quite some time. We all recognized this in PvP against unkillable tanks and in PvE where trials groups could run full bore damage with zero thought to regen. We knew something had to give. There had to be a return to actually managing resources.

3. Sustain Solutions

As the dev team attempts to divorce the idea of using spamable skills from long fights, it is important they remove any loopholes which would render their effort useless. That's why they hit so many areas of sustain. If they left one that allowed people to keep playing as they are, that would become the mandatory thing to do. So players must learn again to take resource management seriously. The most favorable form emerging seems to be the use of Heavy Attack weaving, as fully charged heavy attacks restore resources, and the new diminishing returns curve in the Champion system leaves players with points to put into Tenacity, further increasing Heavy Attack regen. Some players may opt for decreasing the number of heavy attacks required in their rotation by using regen or cost reduction jewelry glyphs, mundus stone, or gear sets. Others may keep their full damage build in favor of more heavy attacks to sustain it. Still others may look to skills like Equilibrium. And some may choose to go a hybrid route to utilize both sets of resources (though this will likely be less potent, it could still be relevant in non-high-end play). How players choose to handle resource management may differ, but everyone will have to take it seriously.

I'm not saying they got it exactly right. Some classes have it easier than others right now. But I believe this is the vision of the dev team and I, for one, think it is a reasonable one. Let's hope the feedback over the next few weeks helps them fine tune things so that their vision can be achieved without significantly handicapping particular classes.

I hope some of you found this helpful to think about.
Edited by dpencil1 on April 22, 2017 3:09AM
  • KramUzibra
    KramUzibra
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    Yeah so we will pretty much see only sorcs and wardens in PvP?
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    I did say that some classes can stomach these changes better than others and that's not good. It's not a question of whether the vision of making resource management matter is bad, but whether the need is equally present across all classes (i.e. a class balancing issue).

    So no, I don't think it would be good to only have Sorcs and Wardens, and never insinuated that.
  • dpencil1
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    I wanted to add one additional thought regarding the idea of "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling."

    I don't think these changes necessarily raise the floor for "casual" players. Rather, I think lowering regen will make standard content more challenging (not a bad thing for overland, but yikes for vMA, etc.), and particularly it will teach growing players that heavy attacks are an essential part of combat rotations. I can't say how often newer players naturally gravitate toward or away from using heavy attacks, but it seems like it will definitely become important going foward. Honestly, I think the dev team has always wanted players to incorporate heavy attacks into their combat rotations considering the various passive skills and gear sets that attempt to incentivize their use. So I think this will do it and potentially make some of those heavy attack sets attractive to players.

    On lowering the ceiling, I think these changes achieve that in some ways and raise it in others. As players adapt to being more self-reliant in resource management, and being able to use heavy attacks without being comparitavely weaker than their spamable-using counterparts, it will lower the requirement of tight synergy coordination and of being masters of light attack weaving. At the same time, dps is going to go down, which means burning through mechanics will be much harder if not impossible. It will require players to maintain themselves through the content for longer, with more potential to mismanage resources and mechanics. But I guess this was also the intent of the dev team, since I can't imagine they were happy that groups could just completely bypass boss mechanics. For top end players, this is likely going to feel less engaging, which is unfortunately what lowering the ceiling really seems to comes down to.

    I'm not saying I'm sure how the whole situation will pan out, especially with whatever tweaks happen over the next several weeks, but that's my best guess right now.
  • LiquidPony
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    I'm just not sure I even understand the "vision" at this point.

    The testing I've done so far, a stamblade can't use Rapid Strikes and magsorc can't use Force Pulse.

    We've basically just replaced LA/spammable weaving with Heavy Attacks. It certainly makes combat easier, but it's also much less dynamic and much more boring.

    Step 1: Lay down DoTs
    Step 2: Heavy Attack until DoTs run out
    Step 3: Repeat

    I am particularly concerned that there is a subtle and indirect nerf to stam (again) buried under all of this: Maelstrom weapons. Mag DPS will continue running Maelstrom staves regardless of whether they are using a spammable ability or heavy attacks. Stam DPS has no use for Maelstrom weapons if they can't use Rapid Strikes at least a few times per rotation to empower DoTs.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    THEY WANT A FAST PACED COMBAT GAME... Waiting 2 SECONDS for a heavy attack is not fast paced!
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • ashenb14_ESO
    ashenb14_ESO
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    KramUzibra wrote: »
    Yeah so we will pretty much see only sorcs and wardens in PvP?

    im sure they will nerf sorcs to, since warden is the selling point of the new dlc, if they make the game a slog for other classes pvp and pve....people will buy the expantion to get a class thats actually fun to play and that can farm gear without using hundreds of pots a night...;)
  • ashenb14_ESO
    ashenb14_ESO
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    dpencil1 wrote: »
    I hope some of you found this helpful to think about.

    you should check out kalonine or silkroad online, you would love them im very sure....they are just up your ally...long long long combat where you spend many days grinding to get one piece of useful gear....right up your ally...same thing they are attempting to bring to eso....
    because thats alot more fun....spending 3 dys grinding for gear i could grind up in 3hrs before will be alot more fun (Y)
  • HugeMuffin
    HugeMuffin
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    KramUzibra wrote: »
    Yeah so we will pretty much see only sorcs and wardens in PvP?

    im sure they will nerf sorcs to, since warden is the selling point of the new dlc, if they make the game a slog for other classes pvp and pve....people will buy the expantion to get a class thats actually fun to play and that can farm gear without using hundreds of pots a night...;)

    But what will Wrobel play?
  • ashenb14_ESO
    ashenb14_ESO
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    dpencil1 wrote: »
    I wanted to add one additional thought regarding the idea of "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling."

    I don't think these changes necessarily raise the floor for "casual" players. Rather, I think lowering regen will make standard content more challenging (not a bad thing for overland, but yikes for vMA, etc.), and particularly it will teach growing players that heavy attacks are the essential part of combat rotations. I can't say how often newer players naturally gravitate toward or away from using heavy attacks, but it seems like it will definitely become important going foward. Honestly, I think the dev team has always wanted players to incorporate heavy attacks into their combat rotations considering the various passive skills and gear sets that attempt to incentivize their use. So I think this will do it and potentially make some of those heavy attack sets attractive to players.

    On lowering the ceiling, I think these changes achieve that in some ways and raise it in others. As players adapt to being more self-reliant in resource management, and being able to use heavy attacks without being comparitavely weaker than their spamable-using counterparts, it will lower the requirement of tight synergy coordination and of being masters of light attack weaving. At the same time, dps is going to go down, which means burning through mechanics will be much harder if not impossible. It will require players to maintain themselves through the content for longer, with more potential to mismanage resources and mechanics. But I guess this was also the intent of the dev team, since I can't imagine they were happy that groups could just completely bypass boss mechanics. For top end players, this is likely going to feel less engaging, which is unfortunately what lowering the ceiling really seems to comes down to.

    I'm not saying I'm sure how the whole situation will pan out, especially with whatever tweaks happen over the next several weeks, but that's my best guess right now.

    ftfy

    eso is now "light, light, heavy online" far more fun, they need to keep moving us toward the gold standard set by korean grinders like KalOnline!!!

    the longer fights take, the more you have to kite, the more fun it is!!!
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    I'm just not sure I even understand the "vision" at this point.

    The testing I've done so far, a stamblade can't use Rapid Strikes and magsorc can't use Force Pulse.

    We've basically just replaced LA/spammable weaving with Heavy Attacks. It certainly makes combat easier, but it's also much less dynamic and much more boring.

    Step 1: Lay down DoTs
    Step 2: Heavy Attack until DoTs run out
    Step 3: Repeat

    I am particularly concerned that there is a subtle and indirect nerf to stam (again) buried under all of this: Maelstrom weapons. Mag DPS will continue running Maelstrom staves regardless of whether they are using a spammable ability or heavy attacks. Stam DPS has no use for Maelstrom weapons if they can't use Rapid Strikes at least a few times per rotation to empower DoTs.

    thats the gold standard for fun..didnt you know, dots/aoe's then heavy attack till they run out...best fun i had this way anyway, optimial playstyle for fun and enjoyment...really!!!
    Hollery wrote: »
    THEY WANT A FAST PACED COMBAT GAME... Waiting 2 SECONDS for a heavy attack is not fast paced!

    lies, you dont know what makes games fun, fun is had by laying your aoe's and dots then just holding your heavy attack button as you point at the enemy over and over...(Because, how else are you going to regen the mana you spent casting your dot's ? potions? those dont regen enough....heavy attacks it is....constant heavy attacks....hell...they could just remove like 2/3 of the games skills that they nerfed to uselessness over time....and make it clear, weapon attacks are your primary and most important skills...all other skills should do less damage and less healing... )

    except warden..wardens...well they will be able to sustain and use major mending at will....soon they will be the only useful class for those starting a new character.
    Edited by ashenb14_ESO on April 24, 2017 1:13AM
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