Mojmir wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert please tell me youve at least read the OP's post?

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

I like sorcerers but I can't stand using the pets. I imagine a necropotence nightwing-healer type could be interesting but it really doesn't seem that interesting. I also dislike the way toggles and pets work in the game, but I've given a lot of feedback in the forums in the past on disliking toggle-skills and my hope for them to change that.

I do think more skills need to give us alternatives out of class for things. I've always thought silver leash would be great as a pull available like DK chain pull.

Nightblades can do alright as healers but I've found the DK is better, and Templar better still. I've never gotten myself to enjoy playing Sorcerer Healer, the whole pet thing feels wrong and there just isn't enough in the class to interest me with it. If Sorcerer pets operated more like Nightblade pets I might consider trying it again.

Yup in my opinion, sorc is still the worst class in healing. The only thing they bring to the table is a great oh-**** button that takes 2 slots on your bars, and guess what, Templars have the same thing but only takes 1 slot. I don't see how they can replace Templar in competitive raid groups, at least they can join a regular friendly trial run :P

Sorcs have superior magicka pools, and sustain. They have crowd control which Templars do not have.

They have pets which help DPS while they're healing.

Sorcs do have benefits to be viable healers, and to bring benefits to their group.

So where are all the sorcs healers right now? Why don't they run vet trials if they have a lot of advantages?

All the things you listed aren't valuable to the group as a healer. Healer is a support role, you should support your group, but Sorc by design is somewhat selfish, or at least more selfish than other classes, even nightblade, yes a class with a skill line dedicated to hiding can provide more group support than sorcerer.

If you have actually tried to heal with a sorc, you would know that you wouldn't want your pet to attack anything, as some random mobs will start attacking your pet and kill it. 101 Sorc healer lesson.

Of course Sorcs can make viable healers, yes, they do bring benefits to the group, but they are outshined by every other classes. Still, they can make good PvP healer, and with a way to feed stam to the group now they can join a regular trial runs. I just don't see how they can dethrone Templar as the king of healing.

I never stated that sorcs are on equal footing to that of templars or wardens when it comes to healing and support. I don't believe they should be. I do believe the threshold of their viability as a healer should be improved. But I do not believe they should be on equal footing.

And they won't be. As I have explained, Templar healers will have massive advantages compared to Sorc healers. Sorc healers aren't going to make it to competitive raid groups who compete for score. They will only be able to join your regular friendly trial run.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

" The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials"

"DisgracefulMind wrote:

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

We are not talking about top Raid teams. ..They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them.

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer.

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

If you are going to continue to spam post every Templar topic, can you at least have the courtesy not to employ double standards?

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

" The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials"

Fact huh? Throwing the bold at us.

"DisgracefulMind wrote:

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

That is accurate.

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

We are not talking about top Raid teams. ..They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them.

Oh, is that so? More bold huh?

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer.

Here is where your agenda is crystal clear. If "We are not talking about top Raid teams" then there are Sorc healers! Because they can feed stamina to the group (dwemer spider set, master Resto staff, nothing wrong with 1 sorc healer and 1 templar healer, etc.) I have a Sorc and I healed a vet trial and I can most assuredly tell you I do exist. Sorcs don't do it as well, but "We are not talking about top Raid teams," remember?

Sorcs healers in vet trials? Seems like it takes a skilled individual with a specific build to pull it off

Dreepa wrote: »

@ZOS. Offer this guy a contract. Off site, expert review.
Seriously, put him into your external review pool...
This is solid stuff and serious expert-player feedback.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

If you are going to continue to spam post every Templar topic, can you at least have the courtesy not to employ double standards?

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

" The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials"

Fact huh? Throwing the bold at us.

"DisgracefulMind wrote:

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

That is accurate.

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

We are not talking about top Raid teams. ..They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them.

Oh, is that so? More bold huh?

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer.

Here is where your agenda is crystal clear. If "We are not talking about top Raid teams" then there are Sorc healers! Because they can feed stamina to the group (dwemer spider set, master Resto staff, nothing wrong with 1 sorc healer and 1 templar healer, etc.) I have a Sorc and I healed a vet trial and I can most assuredly tell you I do exist. Sorcs don't do it as well, but "We are not talking about top Raid teams," remember?

"Spam". Yeah always has to be a personal attack in the beginning. Always. I don't even know what I have done to offend you. By wanting to give Templar back major mending? By wanting to revert the repentance nerf as it's *******? By wanting non-Templar healers to have access to an ability that restores stamina to the group? I have no idea. What have I done to offend you?

It's like transferring Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK class skill lines, thus making Non-DK tanks struggle to do harder content. Then when someone asks why don't we make Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash available for all classes, we can go like "but you can wear Tormentor and Knightmare". Yeah you can wear Tormentor and Knightmare, but that's not the point, who is gonna take a non-DK tank if a DK can do all of the above without having to wear Tormentor and Knightmare, so they can wear Ebon to support the group?

But we are not talking about top Raid teams, remember?

Also, it would be nice if you take a look at the post as a whole to capture its spirit, instead of nitpicking some small details and completely avoid the main point. Thanks.

colig wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

If you are going to continue to spam post every Templar topic, can you at least have the courtesy not to employ double standards?

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

" The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials"

Fact huh? Throwing the bold at us.

"DisgracefulMind wrote:

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

That is accurate.

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

We are not talking about top Raid teams. ..They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them.

Oh, is that so? More bold huh?

"hmsdragonfly wrote:

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer.

Here is where your agenda is crystal clear. If "We are not talking about top Raid teams" then there are Sorc healers! Because they can feed stamina to the group (dwemer spider set, master Resto staff, nothing wrong with 1 sorc healer and 1 templar healer, etc.) I have a Sorc and I healed a vet trial and I can most assuredly tell you I do exist. Sorcs don't do it as well, but "We are not talking about top Raid teams," remember?

"Spam". Yeah always has to be a personal attack in the beginning. Always. I don't even know what I have done to offend you. By wanting to give Templar back major mending? By wanting to revert the repentance nerf as it's *******? By wanting non-Templar healers to have access to an ability that restores stamina to the group? I have no idea. What have I done to offend you?

It's like transferring Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash to DK class skill lines, thus making Non-DK tanks struggle to do harder content. Then when someone asks why don't we make Pierce Armour and Heroic Slash available for all classes, we can go like "but you can wear Tormentor and Knightmare". Yeah you can wear Tormentor and Knightmare, but that's not the point, who is gonna take a non-DK tank if a DK can do all of the above without having to wear Tormentor and Knightmare, so they can wear Ebon to support the group?

But we are not talking about top Raid teams, remember?

Also, it would be nice if you take a look at the post as a whole to capture its spirit, instead of nitpicking some small details and completely avoid the main point. Thanks.

Your reply was far more vitriolic than his. Also, pointing out the frequency of your posts is not ad hominem.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that Warden's will become the top tier healers within several weeks on live. Most trials heals is HOT based anyway with the Restoration staff and Healing Springs. Warden's are HOT healers. Stacking HOTS in ESO has always been more effective than burst healing when it comes to trials.

Burst healing excels in PVP to counter burst damage. But the Warden will still excel in PVP due to things besides just their healing.

We are not allowed to talk about Warden's performance just yet as it violates NDA? So, we will have to wait and see.

All I can say is that spamming Springs will still be the main way to heal. If you take a look at Warden's Green Balance skill line, there's only one Fire-and-Forget HoT: Living Vines. There's a heal that bursts after 6 seconds and a buffs that restore health to allies with heavy attacks but I don't think many people can find a way to utilize those 2 in trials. (these infos are published by ZoS so it isn't violating NDA). Then, if you take a look at Templars, they also have their HoT: Ritual. So, people will still rely on Spring spamming in trials. And what is the best class for Spring spamming? Templar. With high Minor Mending uptime (and the only class that has it), Templar will be the class that can maintain the highest SPC uptime.

Warden has major mending but only after they heal a low health target with 1 of their heals. Gina has said that ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime to make sure that it's low (also, info published by ZOS), so as long as they keep it low enough, Templar will still be the king in healing.
Though, I am not a fan of giving Warden's major mending. I would like to give them minor mending instead, they can raise the threshold so it can be high, but it also means Warden's minor mending isn't reliable and Templar's minor mending is.

I am a fan of giving Wardens and Templars major mending, as they're classes with dedicated healing lines.

Then give it to others, or keep Major Resolve and Major Ward something exclusively available for DK, as DK is the only class with dedicated tanking skill line.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Enemies should also be highly discouraged to enter the Templar's House, and enemies of the templar should also have an incentive to kick the Templar out of their house to reduce his effectiveness. Most of the skills of the Templar, among all 3 skill lines, do not reinforce such gameplay. Allies have little incentive to be close to the Templar, and enemies truly do not fear going near them (at least in PVP).

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

ofSunhold wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Enemies should also be highly discouraged to enter the Templar's House, and enemies of the templar should also have an incentive to kick the Templar out of their house to reduce his effectiveness. Most of the skills of the Templar, among all 3 skill lines, do not reinforce such gameplay. Allies have little incentive to be close to the Templar, and enemies truly do not fear going near them (at least in PVP).

PvP is the reason I have always detested the "templar house" concept when it came up. Because no, that's not what it's like, not at all. There's a compelling reason so many PvP templars go vamp: elusive mist.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Saying something has a 'House' doesn't mean it actually does. While I understand what was being suggested thematically I just don't see it.

Elsterchen wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You nailed the problem ... but I fail to see how this leads to your conclusion.

The only reason to allow a templar in the group is the support abilities. If all other classes can do that too, there is no reason to allow groupplay with a templar at all, well maybe exept for sympathy.

Btw. I hope some ppl still remember, the only reason templar got the abilities to provide magika and stamina support was that all other classes gained access to healing skills without the need of waving a staff ... .

To the OP: well summarized, ty for the time and effort!