Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

I did read your comment. I have already stated that I'm fine with healers of all classes being able to help provide the group resources. However, what you fail to understand is that I'm opposed to granting other classes unique Templar abilities such as shards without giving Templars something new and unique that the others can't provide. This way healer builds will be more diverse, Templars will have less of a monopoly, but the Templar still needs to retain a unique identity (and abilities) to separate them from the rest. Especially because they're one of the only 2 classes built around healing specifically.


TL;DR

I'm fine with the orb changes contingent upon Templar getting new unique abilities to retain their independence as a class

Oh ok I get it your point now, you want to replace Shard with something else? That's fair, it's not something I am against.
Maybe by making Shard a Stun again?

Apart from that, Templar's identity as the best support/healing class is still intact. These are the things that a Templar healer can offer:
1) AOE minor magickasteal
2) Minor sorcery to the group
3) Backlash debuff
4) A nice burst heal
5) A nice AOE HoT that can cleanse harmful effects -> Templar's defined mechanics
6) Minor Mending + Meding passive is buffed
which leads to 7) Highest SPC uptime, as a result of Minor Mending + the Mending passive.

As a comparision, this is what a Sorc healer brings to the table:
1) An Oh--**** button that takes 2 slots on your bar.
2) There's only that one.

You can see why Templar's identity as the the king in healing is still there.

I don't think we can discuss about Warden's healer just yet? Gina said ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime, so I do not believe Warden will dethrone Templar in healing. DK and Warden might compete for the 2nd healer spot, but Templar healers will always be there, laughing.

Just log into PTS and try it out.

Power of light (stam morph) applies minor fracture and minor breach.
Purifying light (magic morph) adds a small hot to allies near the target.

Only one morph applies a debuff.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

I did read your comment. I have already stated that I'm fine with healers of all classes being able to help provide the group resources. However, what you fail to understand is that I'm opposed to granting other classes unique Templar abilities such as shards without giving Templars something new and unique that the others can't provide. This way healer builds will be more diverse, Templars will have less of a monopoly, but the Templar still needs to retain a unique identity (and abilities) to separate them from the rest. Especially because they're one of the only 2 classes built around healing specifically.


TL;DR

I'm fine with the orb changes contingent upon Templar getting new unique abilities to retain their independence as a class

Oh ok I get it your point now, you want to replace Shard with something else? That's fair, it's not something I am against.
Maybe by making Shard a Stun again?

Apart from that, Templar's identity as the best support/healing class is still intact. These are the things that a Templar healer can offer:
1) AOE minor magickasteal
2) Minor sorcery to the group
3) Backlash debuff
4) A nice burst heal
5) A nice AOE HoT that can cleanse harmful effects -> Templar's defined mechanics
6) Minor Mending + Meding passive is buffed
which leads to 7) Highest SPC uptime, as a result of Minor Mending + the Mending passive.

As a comparision, this is what a Sorc healer brings to the table:
1) An Oh--**** button that takes 2 slots on your bar.
2) There's only that one.

You can see why Templar's identity as the the king in healing is still there.

I don't think we can discuss about Warden's healer just yet? Gina said ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime, so I do not believe Warden will dethrone Templar in healing. DK and Warden might compete for the 2nd healer spot, but Templar healers will always be there, laughing.

Just log into PTS and try it out.

Power of light (stam morph) applies minor fracture and minor breach.
Purifying light (magic morph) adds a small hot to allies near the target.

Only one morph applies a debuff.

Yup. Healers have a choice to choose either morph.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

ofSunhold wrote: »

Well said.

I don't care if other classes step into a healing role, and do it well. Good for them, and good for the community.

I care very much that templars have over time been stripped of so many useful abilities and denied useful passives, and now as part of this new vision I'm not really comprehending (make everyone easier to kill and less able to work together, why exactly are they doing that?) the one skillset that was still shiny is burnt.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

.

Templars already give up so many things in order to have that healing line. So ZOS decides to drag the Templars through the mud and punish them even further for excelling at something they designed the class around?

Insane.

Maybe we're just collateral damage now that sustain and healing are Bad, since sustaining and healing was so much of our kit.

So can we have some new kit too then? Undaunted gets a shard equivalent (garbage now anyway it sounds like, restoring whichever resource is lower) so how about a streak equivalent in the Mage's Guild? Everybody gets to streak! And a Cloak equivalent in Legerdemain, because invisibility is pretty fun, and a Standard of Might equivalent in the Fighter's Guild, and Aspect of Terror for leveling up Dark Brotherhood!

Yeah, didn't think so. #screwyoutemplars it is

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that Warden's will become the top tier healers within several weeks on live. Most trials heals is HOT based anyway with the Restoration staff and Healing Springs. Warden's are HOT healers. Stacking HOTS in ESO has always been more effective than burst healing when it comes to trials.

Burst healing excels in PVP to counter burst damage. But the Warden will still excel in PVP due to things besides just their healing.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

I like sorcerers but I can't stand using the pets. I imagine a necropotence nightwing-healer type could be interesting but it really doesn't seem that interesting. I also dislike the way toggles and pets work in the game, but I've given a lot of feedback in the forums in the past on disliking toggle-skills and my hope for them to change that.

I do think more skills need to give us alternatives out of class for things. I've always thought silver leash would be great as a pull available like DK chain pull.

Nightblades can do alright as healers but I've found the DK is better, and Templar better still. I've never gotten myself to enjoy playing Sorcerer Healer, the whole pet thing feels wrong and there just isn't enough in the class to interest me with it. If Sorcerer pets operated more like Nightblade pets I might consider trying it again.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that Warden's will become the top tier healers within several weeks on live. Most trials heals is HOT based anyway with the Restoration staff and Healing Springs. Warden's are HOT healers. Stacking HOTS in ESO has always been more effective than burst healing when it comes to trials.

Burst healing excels in PVP to counter burst damage. But the Warden will still excel in PVP due to things besides just their healing.

We are not allowed to talk about Warden's performance just yet as it violates NDA? So, we will have to wait and see.

All I can say is that spamming Springs will still be the main way to heal. If you take a look at Warden's Green Balance skill line, there's only one Fire-and-Forget HoT: Living Vines. There's a heal that bursts after 6 seconds and a buffs that restore health to allies with heavy attacks but I don't think many people can find a way to utilize those 2 in trials. (these infos are published by ZoS so it isn't violating NDA). Then, if you take a look at Templars, they also have their HoT: Ritual. So, people will still rely on Spring spamming in trials. And what is the best class for Spring spamming? Templar. With high Minor Mending uptime (and the only class that has it), Templar will be the class that can maintain the highest SPC uptime.

Warden has major mending but only after they heal a low health target with 1 of their heals. Gina has said that ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime to make sure that it's low (also, info published by ZOS), so as long as they keep it low enough, Templar will still be the king in healing.
Though, I am not a fan of giving Warden's major mending. I would like to give them minor mending instead, they can raise the threshold so it can be high, but it also means Warden's minor mending isn't reliable and Templar's minor mending is.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@austinwalter87ub17_ESO I've also been thinking that if they want to take Major Mending from our Rune Focus, perhaps they could stand to make Rune Focus travel with us (or simply be a golden glow on us)? I really don't see why not, as the sacred ground effect was really the main portion that was interesting. The armor bonus really isn't that exciting, particularly if you're already tanky, and particularly since you can get them from other sources. I do find it rather bizarre that the Warden is a HoT class, which we know is the better form of healing, and Templar is the Burst class. It seems to me Templar is the better candidate for reliable Burst healing, but what do I know.

I like playing the Warrior Crusader myself: Ie: the Knight in metal armor with gold filigree that they originally illustrated to us in the outset of the game, who buy the way carried a two handed hammer If I recall correctly. I had images of old paintings of Charles Martel in my mind, shoving the invaders out of Tours. While the healing monk is part of the design, I do think the theme should be represented by the holy knight. I'm concerned the loss of major mending really hurts the knightly (stamina oriented) specs, who now have even less reason to exist than before. Bombplar may still be fine but that was niche anyway and its looking like the Warden might be able to compete on that level (I have no real way of knowing because they never sent me an invite to PTS for Morrowind).

ZOS has stated in the past that the design concept behind Templars was them having a "house."

The problem with that is that very few of the Templar skills synergize with such a concept. Nor do the passives give the necessary boosts for that playstyle to thrive.

Assuming this was PVP, and I was fighting a Templar and going into his house. I would assume that getting near him or charging at him would put me at a disadvantage. If the "house" concept of the Templar is going to work, the class must be overhauled to support that design concept. Currently, ZOS has not and is not achieving that. As an enemy to a templar, i wouldn't feel threatened getting close to him at their current state.

Templar abilities do nothing to punish those whom get close. Now, with these patch notes, the positive gains of being inside the Templar House are getting removed for the Templar. So the enemy has nothing to fear, and the Templar's are not getting enough substantial benefit of remaining inside their house for this design concept to work.

If it were up to me.

I would overhaul most of the Templars skills to better suit this role.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that Warden's will become the top tier healers within several weeks on live. Most trials heals is HOT based anyway with the Restoration staff and Healing Springs. Warden's are HOT healers. Stacking HOTS in ESO has always been more effective than burst healing when it comes to trials.

Burst healing excels in PVP to counter burst damage. But the Warden will still excel in PVP due to things besides just their healing.

We are not allowed to talk about Warden's performance just yet as it violates NDA? So, we will have to wait and see.

All I can say is that spamming Springs will still be the main way to heal. If you take a look at Warden's Green Balance skill line, there's only one Fire-and-Forget HoT: Living Vines. There's a heal that bursts after 6 seconds and a buffs that restore health to allies with heavy attacks but I don't think many people can find a way to utilize those 2 in trials. (these infos are published by ZoS so it isn't violating NDA). Then, if you take a look at Templars, they also have their HoT: Ritual. So, people will still rely on Spring spamming in trials. And what is the best class for Spring spamming? Templar. With high Minor Mending uptime (and the only class that has it), Templar will be the class that can maintain the highest SPC uptime.

Warden has major mending but only after they heal a low health target with 1 of their heals. Gina has said that ZOS are adjusting Warden's MM uptime to make sure that it's low (also, info published by ZOS), so as long as they keep it low enough, Templar will still be the king in healing.
Though, I am not a fan of giving Warden's major mending. I would like to give them minor mending instead, they can raise the threshold so it can be high, but it also means Warden's minor mending isn't reliable and Templar's minor mending is.

I am a fan of giving Wardens and Templars major mending, as they're classes with dedicated healing lines.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.

I like sorcerers but I can't stand using the pets. I imagine a necropotence nightwing-healer type could be interesting but it really doesn't seem that interesting. I also dislike the way toggles and pets work in the game, but I've given a lot of feedback in the forums in the past on disliking toggle-skills and my hope for them to change that.

I do think more skills need to give us alternatives out of class for things. I've always thought silver leash would be great as a pull available like DK chain pull.

Nightblades can do alright as healers but I've found the DK is better, and Templar better still. I've never gotten myself to enjoy playing Sorcerer Healer, the whole pet thing feels wrong and there just isn't enough in the class to interest me with it. If Sorcerer pets operated more like Nightblade pets I might consider trying it again.

Yup in my opinion, sorc is still the worst class in healing. The only thing they bring to the table is a great oh-**** button that takes 2 slots on your bars, and guess what, Templars have the same thing but only takes 1 slot. I don't see how they can replace Templar in competitive raid groups, at least they can join a regular friendly trial run :P

Sorcs have superior magicka pools, and sustain. They have crowd control which Templars do not have.

They have pets which help DPS while they're healing.

Sorcs do have benefits to be viable healers, and to bring benefits to their group.

So where are all the sorcs healers right now? Why don't they run vet trials if they have a lot of advantages?

All the things you listed aren't valuable to the group as a healer. Healer is a support role, you should support your group, but Sorc by design is somewhat selfish, or at least more selfish than other classes, even nightblade, yes a class with a skill line dedicated to hiding can provide more group support than sorcerer.

If you have actually tried to heal with a sorc, you would know that you wouldn't want your pet to attack anything, as some random mobs will start attacking your pet and kill it. 101 Sorc healer lesson.

Of course Sorcs can make viable healers, yes, they do bring benefits to the group, but they are outshined by every other classes. Still, they can make good PvP healer, and with a way to feed stam to the group now they can join a regular trial runs. I just don't see how they can dethrone Templar as the king of healing.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I agree with majority of your points, except this.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the reason that people don't really need to play a Templar anymore has less to do with their heals and more to do with the nerfs to Repentance and Shards. Now that Undaunted Orbs are basically Shards, and Repentance is useless. Why should I play a Templar? The defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good are now accessible to everyone. Including to the classes that don't lose any potential by having a dedicated healing line.

I agree that the nerf to Repentance is completely unnecessary. This nerf shouldn't make it to live. But about group support, we all know that the reason Non-Templar healers aren't even allowed to join a raid is because they don't have any ability that can restore stamina to the group. If we want people to accept non-Templar healers, they need something to restore stamina to the group, otherwise, they are as good as a tank that doesn't taunt and debuff the boss. And if we want to gut the chance of Non-Templar healers to join a raid, we might as well remove Templar's DPS capability, if a Sorc cannot heal then it's only fair if a Templar cannot DPS. If anything is Templar's "defining class mechanics which made the Templar so good", that shouldn't be Shard. It can be Rune Focus, it can be the cleanse+AOE HoT (Ritual), it can be Jabs, Beam, BoL, Repentence/Radiant Aura etc, but not Shard. It's like giving Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK and tell other classes to go screw themselves they are not allowed to tank.

I am not saying that the way ZOS tries to implement Shard and Orb is the best way to do it, hell no, "restoring resources based on the missing percentage" or whatever it is, is over the top clunky. But, other classes need an ability to restore stamina, if they ever want a chance to compete with Templar healers. New skills? Changing an ability in the Undaunted skill line? All good, but other classes need their Shard.

You're viewing things too black and white. I have absolutely 0 issue with sorcs, dks, and night blades being able to built ad healers and doing so effectively.

I'm fine with them having a way to provide the group stamina even with the orbs change.

What I'm not okay with is giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess in order to make these other classes viable. Yes the game needs to support diverse builds, but each class needs to retain independent and unique abilities to separate them from the others.

With Templars having a class specific healing line. There should always be a slight advantage of choosing them over those whom don't have it. But ripping skills from Templar and giving everyone access to them is not the solution to this.

You are missing the point completely. I have a feeling that you haven't read my comment at all, is that true? This is a quick check to see if you actually ready my comment, please answer with yes or no.

You are saying that you are fine with "having a way for other classes to provide the group stamina", but you are not ok with "giving other classes access to unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess", are we talking about the same thing? What do you mean by "unique class defining mechanics that Templars possess"? I will assume that you mean "Shard"?

An ability that restore stamina to the group is not a "slight advantage", it's like giving Heroic Slash and Absorb Magic to DK, not letting other classes to have access to them, denying other classes from having required abilities needed for vet trials, then tell other classes that DK should have the "slight advantage" when it comes to tanking. An ability to feed stamina to the group is a required ability for healers, Templar already has all the edges in the world when it comes to healing, and as a matter of fact, in PTS, Templar is still the best class in healing.

I understand that you are upset, and you are not ok with other classes having a way to feed stamina to the group, as it used to be the reason why Templar is the only class that is allowed to heal in a raid. But please understand that whether you are ok or not ok with this, giving other classes a way to feed stamina to the group is for the better of the game. Please think about the game first.

So would you be ok with dragon knights not being the only class to be able to to successfully physically pull targets too them?... like lets say they changed trapping webs in undaunted skills to a pull that way any class that wants to tank can pull and it's not something unique that dragon knights have... its better than a gap closer in the sense that you'd ont move and you can pull all of those rangers into a tight little package....

Then on top of that the root i suggested earlier.. what if one of the undaunted or fighters guild or mages guild abilities were Abilene to root all those adds you just pulled with a wide area multitarget root.. similar to how dragon knights do it...

I assume if you are ok with orbs being identical to shards... then you are ok with this too

Pulling is important, but it isn't as important as feeding stamina to the group. The fact that we see a lot of Templar tanks tanking vet Trials, but we don't see any non-Templar healers proves it. Feeding stamina is right now a job of the healer.

And yes, I have nothing against giving other classes a way to pull targets. Example making Silver Leash pull the target to you, but you will have to click it twice thus making DK's chain more effective.

If you are going to say giving chain to other classes means DK loses its identity, then yeah DK loses its identity to my Nightblade saptank wearing Swarm Mother long ago already. Chain isn't what defines a DK. Igneous Shield is. Ult regen is. The DoT is..

You're WRONG. Look at all the top Raid teams and all their tanks are DKs. Maybe in more casual content there are other tanks, but if you want to be in a solid raid environment, your tanks will be DKs and will continue to be DKs.

We are not talking about top Raid teams. We all know that DK is the most effective in main tanking, that's why people who compete for score often go with DK tank. But, if you take a look around, there are a lot of Templar tanks who have completed vet trials, they are all over the forum, take a quick search in youtube a lot of Templar trial tank builds out there. Yes, they are surely less effective than DK in trials, but they are not pathetic compared to DK. They can do their job: taunt, debuff, hold aggro. That's the reason why there are many of them. What if we buff Templar's tanking capability? That would be great, I have nothing against it. Giving Shard back its stun, and making a morph disorienting multiple targets. Something like that.

Now, take a look at Non-Templar healers. A Sorc healer (for example) compared to a Templar Healer is just pathetic. The job of a Healer is to heal and feed resources to the group. A Sorc healer (or NB/DK healer) has no way to feed stamina to the group, so non-Templar healers do not exist in vet trial. Everyone is a Templar healer. Here is a big question: If we allow Templar to DPS in vet trials, then why do we deny the chance of Nightblade healers to participate in vet trials? Why? We don't need to balance them so that every class can compete for score, no, groups that run for score will always be 1 DK main tank (and maybe 1 off-tank), Templar healers (maybe 1 Templar 1 Warden in the next patch), DK and Sorc DDs, there's nothing wrong with that, just give a chance for non-Templar healers to join your regular friendly trial runs.

Oh, and give back Templar's repentance. Buff Shard. Maybe making it disorienting multiple targets.