Please stop insulting my intelligence and calling me a whiner

GreasyDave · April 2017

There have been some provocative posts in this forum this week. Many of those directed at the folks who don't like the proposed changes in the patch notes have been insulting and uncalled for. I can just sulk about it or I can explain to the culprits why they are wrong to insult me. I prefer the latter so here goes:

On paper, I understand the logic behind the patch's intentions - but when I consider the detail I am overwhelmed by the flaws in the proposed implementation. [snip]

I'm going to try and provide some rational explanations here. Bare with me. Maybe some of my ESO knowledge is wayward, and I'm happy to be corrected.

First, let's drop the disingenuous claim that ZOS want to raise the floor and lower the ceiling. They might be claiming that's what they want but the reality on the ground is the opposite.

Couple of examples from personal experience. When I came back to the game with 1T, I found myself with 200CP's and terribad dps. So I installed combat metrics and set about trying to get a semi - decent stamina toon together.

By January I'd got 150 more CP's and although my stamina sustain was terrible, my un-buffed DPS was in the region of 20k (which was a big step up for me personally). Homestead dropped and that dps got nerfed back to the stone age -approx a 20 -25 percent drop. So, although I went from 200-350 CP's faster than players 2 years ago, the reality was I hadn't travelled anywhere in terms of toon development. I was back where I'd started: the overland content face roll easy, the vague goal of end game content a distant dream. Stuck between too hard and too easy. The ceiling hadn't been lowered. I had endeavoured to git gud and get closer to it and they went and moved it further away.

Suck it up, be a man, stop whining, L2P, git gud, adapt etc etc.....yeah right. I have done that. 2 months later, this is where I am: I've added another 150 CP's, some gold jewelry, VO gear and my unbuffed dps is 20 percent higher than pre- Homestead. My sustain is adequate but not good. Buffed trial dps is at the very low end of adequate but it's still above 30k. And I've even started thinking about finding time to work at vMA as well as help newer players in one of my guilds take their first steps in their own vet trials.

See- I just needed to adapt. It all came good in the end. What was I whining about? So much entitlement in this one!

Except it hasn't changed anything and it won't. All or most of the progress I've made in the last 2 months is going to be washed away come next patch if they implement the changes listed. Mighty, if I understand correctly will lose 10 percent. Red guard sustain is getting a wash out. Then there are the other proposed stam resource nerfs as well as nerfs to templar group sustain which might have helped me out and taken some of the pressure off me during trials. The end result is a lowering of my dps while I try and compensate for this drop in stam regen. I'm not sure how large a drop just yet - but a drop there is sure to be.

Yet again, I attempted to get better and adapt and yet again the ceiling is raised and the floor is lowered. The overland content will remain face roll easy and the end game content will become harder and more difficult for me to complete. The last two months of enthusiastic work washed away. Back where I was at the start pretty much.

Maybe you aren't interested in endgame content and are happy with the way you play. That's no problem for me. Or perhaps you are already so highly geared or skilled that even with the proposed nerfs vet trial HMs will still be like sneezing into a tissue. Again, that's fine. I won't call you a scrub or an elitist. But in return please recognise that the proposed changes in the patch will effect some of us very significantly and you have no right to call me or anyone else complaining about them a whiner or entitled on these forums.

If it was just my personal journey I wouldn't be quite so pissed about it all. But like I mentioned, I've been trying to help newer players climb the ladder of trials, get geared and get their first vet trial completion. Our small guild team has no pro's. No maelstrom wielding warriors. A few 600Cp guys with decent builds and patience and some newer players with 20-15k base dps who want to try the content and learn. Only 3 of us have completed vAA already. Each week we've got a bit further along, each week everyone's learned something. Last night, our third weekly run we beat the Mage. Great. Another success. Players learning to play and getting gud. Stop whining -see this is the right approach! Yes but no.

If the proposed changes go live I really don't think what we achieved last night will be possible come June. The nerfs to sustain are going to hit the total dps hard. And I haven't even begun to imagine how bad it's going to be for our tank trying to block the axes. Sure, we can adapt, think of new builds, git gud, L2P. But that completely misses the point. This is a guild activity. Attendees are here one week, absent the next. The kind of complete rebooting of builds that these changes will require take weeks to work up, not days. What we will see is content that our small team worked hard to learn and get through is suddenly locked to us again. We are not running it to achieve scores. We have no dreams of HM. We are in it to enjoy it. We won't be able to in 2 months time.

Now you can tell me that for the good of the game this needs to be done. And like I said, I understand the intention behind the changes.

But isn't it also in the interests and for the good of the game that new enthusiastic players get a chance to try the end - game content and learn and get better? Shouldn't players who are NOT the best of the best be able to run this content so they can get the gear and possibly become, dare I say it, better players?

Personally I don't think that the best players should remain the only ones able to do this content. Nor do I think the rest of us should make do with easy normal trials and the sneeze easy overland content.

You are free to disagree but as I said, I don't call players elitist nor scrubs so please, if I am trying to communicate my dislike of the changes to ZOS on these forums, stop with the whiner insults.

[edited to remove political comment]

Turelus · April 2017

As someone who often calls people whiners I can say I mainly aim this at people who just complain but won't actively go and work towards the change nor give any reasons as to how they came to their choice.

I can sit here and say "Formula 1 sucks, it's a horrible motorsport"
This is my opinion and I have come to it for several reasons, but without me providing my reasoning (even if personal preference) I just look like I am complaining/whining with no real insight as to why I believe that or how things could be changed.

hmsdragonfly · April 2017

Damn that's hell of a dedication, I give you that.

ScooberSteve · April 2017

Looking at your extremely long post i can see what they mean

DRXHarbinger · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

As someone who often calls people whiners I can say I mainly aim this at people who just complain but won't actively go and work towards the change nor give any reasons as to how they came to their choice.

I can sit here and say "Formula 1 sucks, it's a horrible motorsport"
This is my opinion and I have come to it for several reasons, but without me providing my reasoning (even if personal preference) I just look like I am complaining/whining with no real insight as to why I believe that or how things could be changed.

F1 is p2w. Huge budgets deliver the best results.

Maybe zos needs to redirect the CS store funds from the Ferrari for Xmas bonus scheme to development?

notimetocare · April 2017

TL;DR

Stop whining, this level of change in normal for MMORPGS. Adapt or quit, much easier than flooding the forums with QQ

Betheny · April 2017

I'm just here for the sweetrolls.

lunalitetempler · April 2017

Problem is the whiners are acting like children and throwing tantrums, not actually providing feedback.

You know what they say *if you act like a child you will be treated like one*

Thannazzar · April 2017

The bulk of your post refers to your own experience and metrics. A more general mathematic theorycraft of the change would have helped your point more.

The fundamental question is following the changes (assuming all the players know what they are doing and have reasonably effective builds) can they beat vet dungeons with blue gear, dlc dungeons and trials with purple gear, and vet trials, VMA etc with gold bis without excessive wiping, and without heavy attacking more than 30% of the time?

If they can (and my experience of the PTS is they can so long as they factor sustain into their build) what's the issue really?

I accept there may be issues in pvp as a result however with the greatest respect its pvp so meh.

raj72616a · April 2017

sad to see your post is attracting trolls to insult you

Tommy_The_Gun · April 2017

raj72616a wrote: »

sad to see your post is attracting trolls to insult you

rager82b14_ESO · April 2017

Who cares what other people think? If you disagree with me, you are a troll. That is how the net works.

Being irked because people call you Blank is pointless.

Turelus · April 2017

raj72616a wrote: »

sad to see your post is attracting trolls to insult you

Would we expect anything more on the ESO forums?

Vapirko · April 2017

Stay strong. The people who call dedicated players whiners are trolls and people who get flattened in pvp and then t bag when they zerg you down. Someone brought up a good point and that is that the ones of us on this forum who take this game seriously are probably a minority so they're not making the game for us. It doesn't mean they should ignore their "endgame crowd" but unfortunately it's just gonna happen. This is a casuals game or at least it's headed that way. It's always been about the grind and it's sad but true. We will see how things pan out.

colig · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

sad to see your post is attracting trolls to insult you

Would we expect anything more on the ESO forums?

I went LOL at that. At least now the ESO community can shed its delusion about being less toxic than others.

Beesting · April 2017

I find this a very informative post. thx OP!

GreenhaloX · April 2017

What.. wine is good for you. I'm a winer. Oh.. whiner, my bad. Whine all you want. It's ok. I may or may not listen.

STEVIL · April 2017

@GreasyDave

your post seems to me to say that you do not understand what the raising the floor and lowering the ceiling means.

you cite overland casual still being faceroll as an example counter to raising the floor.
you cite your character got weaker after a patch change (something you were doing got nerfed) without any reference to whether or not you changed to suit the new rules as an example counter to lowering ceiling.

lowering the ceiling and raising the floor is not about overland content or about whether or not changes occur that lower particular builds effectiveness while raising other. the PVE content thresholds adjust to the rules and performance.

The ceiling and floor thing is about reducing the in combat potency difference between "top players", "average players", "weak players" and "rookies." it is about lowering the differences in performance output between someone who has 100 hours in and someone with 1000 hours in.

The single most illustrative piece of that is in the patch notes changes on CP.

Right now, Cp can get you 25% boost for 100 cp and there is a modest diminishing returns scale. The difference between having the Cp totals to put 100 in vs 50 in is X and that makes the difference between having 100cp, 300cpo or 600 cp that much of an advantage or disadvantage. it also rewards max-100s fairly strongly - pushing the idea of maxmaxmax beating more diverse spends.

based on the patch notes, 25% will drop to 20% or so for 100cp. Thus the difference between 0cp and 100cp in a tree is less... "ceiling lowered."
based on the patch notes, at 50cp you will have 755 of the gains already cooked in... they made the dim returns give more at the beginning and much less at the end. So the differences between 100cp 300cp and 600cp will be less... again ceiling lowered.

You are simply put not as much outmatched by NUMBERS of cp difference as you once were.

In either case, the difference in NUMBERS can be made up for by a difference in skill. But the changes make the numbers less of a mathematical hurdle between ceiling and floor.

colig · April 2017

It's mainly just forum stalwarts tired of seeing people rage.

central_scrutinizer · April 2017

There will always be insecure people looking to gain attention at the expense of strangers. It's just a fact of life when communicating in a format in which nobody ever has to look anybody else in the eye.

DragonBound · April 2017

GreasyDave wrote: »

There have been some provocative posts in this forum this week. Many of those directed at the folks who don't like the proposed changes in the patch notes have been insulting and uncalled for. I can just sulk about it or I can explain to the culprits why they are wrong to insult me. I prefer the latter so here goes:

On paper, I understand the logic behind the patch's intentions - but when I consider the detail I am overwhelmed by the flaws in the proposed implementation. [Snip]

I'm going to try and provide some rational explanations here. Bare with me. Maybe some of my ESO knowledge is wayward, and I'm happy to be corrected.

First, let's drop the disingenuous claim that ZOS want to raise the floor and lower the ceiling. They might be claiming that's what they want but the reality on the ground is the opposite.

Couple of examples from personal experience. When I came back to the game with 1T, I found myself with 200CP's and terribad dps. So I installed combat metrics and set about trying to get a semi - decent stamina toon together.

By January I'd got 150 more CP's and although my stamina sustain was terrible, my un-buffed DPS was in the region of 20k (which was a big step up for me personally). Homestead dropped and that dps got nerfed back to the stone age -approx a 20 -25 percent drop. So, although I went from 200-350 CP's faster than players 2 years ago, the reality was I hadn't travelled anywhere in terms of toon development. I was back where I'd started: the overland content face roll easy, the vague goal of end game content a distant dream. Stuck between too hard and too easy. The ceiling hadn't been lowered. I had endeavoured to git gud and get closer to it and they went and moved it further away.

Suck it up, be a man, stop whining, L2P, git gud, adapt etc etc.....yeah right. I have done that. 2 months later, this is where I am: I've added another 150 CP's, some gold jewelry, VO gear and my unbuffed dps is 20 percent higher than pre- Homestead. My sustain is adequate but not good. Buffed trial dps is at the very low end of adequate but it's still above 30k. And I've even started thinking about finding time to work at vMA as well as help newer players in one of my guilds take their first steps in their own vet trials.

See- I just needed to adapt. It all came good in the end. What was I whining about? So much entitlement in this one!

Except it hasn't changed anything and it won't. All or most of the progress I've made in the last 2 months is going to be washed away come next patch if they implement the changes listed. Mighty, if I understand correctly will lose 10 percent. Red guard sustain is getting a wash out. Then there are the other proposed stam resource nerfs as well as nerfs to templar group sustain which might have helped me out and taken some of the pressure off me during trials. The end result is a lowering of my dps while I try and compensate for this drop in stam regen. I'm not sure how large a drop just yet - but a drop there is sure to be.

Yet again, I attempted to get better and adapt and yet again the ceiling is raised and the floor is lowered. The overland content will remain face roll easy and the end game content will become harder and more difficult for me to complete. The last two months of enthusiastic work washed away. Back where I was at the start pretty much.

Maybe you aren't interested in endgame content and are happy with the way you play. That's no problem for me. Or perhaps you are already so highly geared or skilled that even with the proposed nerfs vet trial HMs will still be like sneezing into a tissue. Again, that's fine. I won't call you a scrub or an elitist. But in return please recognise that the proposed changes in the patch will effect some of us very significantly and you have no right to call me or anyone else complaining about them a whiner or entitled on these forums.

If it was just my personal journey I wouldn't be quite so pissed about it all. But like I mentioned, I've been trying to help newer players climb the ladder of trials, get geared and get their first vet trial completion. Our small guild team has no pro's. No maelstrom wielding warriors. A few 600Cp guys with decent builds and patience and some newer players with 20-15k base dps who want to try the content and learn. Only 3 of us have completed vAA already. Each week we've got a bit further along, each week everyone's learned something. Last night, our third weekly run we beat the Mage. Great. Another success. Players learning to play and getting gud. Stop whining -see this is the right approach! Yes but no.

If the proposed changes go live I really don't think what we achieved last night will be possible come June. The nerfs to sustain are going to hit the total dps hard. And I haven't even begun to imagine how bad it's going to be for our tank trying to block the axes. Sure, we can adapt, think of new builds, git gud, L2P. But that completely misses the point. This is a guild activity. Attendees are here one week, absent the next. The kind of complete rebooting of builds that these changes will require take weeks to work up, not days. What we will see is content that our small team worked hard to learn and get through is suddenly locked to us again. We are not running it to achieve scores. We have no dreams of HM. We are in it to enjoy it. We won't be able to in 2 months time.

Now you can tell me that for the good of the game this needs to be done. And like I said, I understand the intention behind the changes.

But isn't it also in the interests and for the good of the game that new enthusiastic players get a chance to try the end - game content and learn and get better? Shouldn't players who are NOT the best of the best be able to run this content so they can get the gear and possibly become, dare I say it, better players?

Personally I don't think that the best players should remain the only ones able to do this content. Nor do I think the rest of us should make do with easy normal trials and the sneeze easy overland content.

You are free to disagree but as I said, I don't call players elitist nor scrubs so please, if I am trying to communicate my dislike of the changes to ZOS on these forums, stop with the whiner insults.

You know it should not matter what allot of people think, big groups tend do not think for themselves to begin with my friend ignore the haters, people who jump to assumptions and judgements about others especially when they do not even take the time to understand the patch or why someone might be concerned really does not deserve a long and explained post like this, you will not likely change them it is a insecurity within themselves which they are projecting on you.

[edited to remove political comment]

DragonBound · April 2017

notimetocare wrote: »

TL;DR

Stop whining, this level of change in normal for MMORPGS. Adapt or quit, much easier than flooding the forums with QQ

I bet whatever jobs you will end up will love you, how far you want me to bend over sir? And I do not say this because I think the patch will be bad just because of what your willing to simply accept.

Myrrah · April 2017

contrary to the usual tiresome snarky responses-i read your post and appreciate it. I think this is prob'ly the way it is for a lot of the playerbase who don't bother coming to the forums due to said snarkiness. Thank you for taking the time to express it

ZOS_Ragnar · April 2017

We have removed some comments that were baiting and non-constructive. Please keep your posts civil and constructive.

Balamoor · April 2017

It seems that complaints/whines/problems what ever you choose to call them are fluid.

On one hand after changes there is just going to be questors and so called "flower pickers" left.

On the other Hand the patch is just for the elitist.

This is where the accusations of whining comes from, because when you have thirty threads from ten people all about the same YouTube hero, and they change the complaint depending on what works best at the moment and it breaks down to just irrational horseS*** nine times out of ten, then yeah people are going to call you a whiner.

We actually had one person accusing people of oppressiveness for not remaining quiet while they had temper tantrums.

It's snowflake mentality pure and simple and I don't think ZoS is going to cave like most College campuses do today when spoiled brats pull these tactics.

Kodrac · April 2017

TL;DR?

DanaDark · April 2017

It sounds to me like I'm you are taking the patch personally. As though it only applies to you. You say that YOU lost this progress. But in reality it is still there. Had you not made the progress, you would be worse off.

If ZOS divided every number in the game by 10, there would be no changes what so ever gameplay wise, X mob would still die with Y hits, yet your DPS would have been cut substantially!

What it's worth, many concerned posts are not whining. Some may even sound like they are but actually have legitimate concerns.

Personally, I been through many MMOs and know classes always change and are never balanced fully. Ever. So changes come for the good and bad. Unless they go all SWG NGE. Then well... abandon ship.

grizzledcroc · April 2017

You got ZOS to defend you

grizzledcroc · April 2017

grizzledcroc wrote: »

You got ZOS to defend you

gosh darn the smiley face came out looking snarky

SkylarkX · April 2017

A rational and well thought out post OP, sadly it won't get much traction here. An overwhelming majority of forum posters immediatly rush to a position on any issue that arises and rarely move from it regardless of the truth.

I hope you and your guildies find a path through.

DHale · April 2017

Honestly, I think this patch will be a great thing if you are bad at the game. The thinking that they will finally be competitive but they won't the hard fights that they can't do will be harder and the tough opponents in pvp will be harder as they will kill you faster and you will have less ability to sustain a defense. If you are good player spec all into damage and stand in daggerfall or rawlka and duel everyone who gets out of the wayshrine.

Bet you can go 40 and 0. It will just be more of a Zerg festival in pvp and soon the number of people to kill world bosses and do the really tough content like vma and the dlc dungeons won't be around which I tried and was 8 and I died like five times The same boss I can do with one other now. You won't always find 8 people to do content. It's just not going to happen.