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Lessons to be learned from this, ZOS.
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xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.
One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.
What happens to players that aren't accomplishing those numbers and struggle with resource management? Are the nerfs going to somehow not filter down to them and reduce their numbers further? That's what confuses me about this. The good players will be slightly challenged and the mediocre players are having the challenge dialed up even further? Am I missing something that actually helps players that already find the content very challenging?
this is what i said too some friends earlier on teamspeak. Essentially it will be fine for everyone just starting the game for the first time but when they actually come to the hard content they are going to struggle big time.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.2 -
Curtdogg47✭✭✭✭Leave skills and classes as they are now. Move forward with the CP changes. See how things look after that then decide what to do next.5 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.
One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.
What happens to players that aren't accomplishing those numbers and struggle with resource management? Are the nerfs going to somehow not filter down to them and reduce their numbers further? That's what confuses me about this. The good players will be slightly challenged and the mediocre players are having the challenge dialed up even further? Am I missing something that actually helps players that already find the content very challenging?
this is what i said too some friends earlier on teamspeak. Essentially it will be fine for everyone just starting the game for the first time but when they actually come to the hard content they are going to struggle big time.
Not really, by the time they get to the hard content power creep will have taken over again OR they will be really good at managing their resources cause it's how they've learnt to play all along.
The ones that will suffer are the ones that are only just being introduced to hard content now (I guess the middle range) because they have to "forget" what they know/current playstyle but arn't yet good enough to quickly adapt. But you can never please everyone right?NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
Betheny✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS won't learn a thing though, and they won't read this or even consider doing what they should do, because someone there seems to think they know best and we're all idiots.6 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing.
Anyone can do 35k-40k dps if the test lasts less than 1 minute. Show me a video of someone that isn't a top 5% player doing 35k-40k DPS over a prolonged (5-10 minute) test without resource support.
Homogenization and class-defining skills being stripped down aside, these resource changes aren't going to improve PVE at all. Here is my prediction: People will keep stacking damage, dump some points into restoring more resources from heavy attacks (if they even bother), and just heavy attack to full before returning to their rotations. Maybe weaving in some more heavy attacks in between where convenient.
What is the point? Certainly not worth all this collateral damage. Certainly nowhere NEAR the issue of immortal PVP sustain builds. Particularly when it comes to the "power gap" impressions of newer players.
It isn't the ability to sustain DPS on a target dummy that is putting new people off the game, it is going up against builds in PVP that seem immortal and never run out of resources. It is a PVP issue with PVE consequences as we have seen so many times before.
All ZOS really needs to do is tweak the Battle Spirit debuff they already have in place and make a few tooltip tweaks to specific skills to make them work slightly differently in PVP.
The "balance by chainsaw" needs to stop. Seriously.
Yeah, sorry. Still not buying into it aye - the endless sustain problem is far more wide reaching than just PVP. There's countless videos of people pulling those numbers and how to do them, but of course any that get linked will just be shot down as "that dudes clearly a top 5% player then".
Cry, threaten to quit (we all know everyones going to still be around after the next patch) do what you must but I don't think there's enough tears in the world to halt these changes and I for one don't believe they should beNA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
ZeroSumPhase✭✭
Or removing a skill-based ability like Repentance restoring resources to the group while claiming the changes were to improve skilled play. Or giving a new class essentially 100% uptime on a major buff in PVP while completely removing it from another on a whim. The problem is refusal to balance PVE and PVP separately.
The whole thing seems like a knee-jerk response to PVP sustain meta that went way to far, and should never have been an issue in the first place if they weren't for some reason so adamant against just balancing PVP and PVE separately.
I still can't comprehend their resistance in that regard.
This is it, right here. They have an issue with a PvP build, affecting the gameplay, and the sweeping changes they bring have an awesome and powerful effect on PvE gameplay.
This issue called for a scalpel, and ZoS brought a broadsword.
The first Guild Wars had this same issue, more than 10(?) years ago. They finally decided after a massive outcry from the playerbase to switch to a system whereupon entering a PvP area, certain skills- not even all skills, were changed. Skill A did X in PvE, and did Y in PvP.
isn't it interesting that a game with no subscription model- none, as the original GW is buy-to-play forever-- made this change with no monetary incentive to do so?
It's such a simple fix, and ZoS refuses to see sense here. PvP is not PvE.
EDIT: Edited for grammar errors and clairity. "I kan tipe gud. Realy."
Edited by ZeroSumPhase on April 20, 2017 12:50AMI thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes...6 -
Splattercat_83✭✭✭✭Comon dude, this has hardly been rushed. There's been talk of major resource changes for months now, many of my guild mates have been running around with no CP in cost reduction passives in anticipation of this.
I feel like everyone crying over these changes must be newer players than have come into the game when resource management wasn't an issue, all they are doing is trying to bring the game back to where it was before power creep took over.
Anyone that has been playing this game for a while knows that resource management use to be a fundamental aspect of this game, and the god honest truth is that part of the game went a long time ago. I mean, does anyone use a single cost reduction/regen glyph anymore? When was the last time someone crafted Seducer armor?
These changes are going to bring build diversity back into the game and improve the overall experience for everyone so I think we should all slow down on the tears.
Build diversity as in every one is going to replace bsw with willows path or seducer? All your glyphs will be cost reduction and you will have magic return enchants on your weapons. Yeah that's the build diversity I remember. And I remember being vr14 and doing like 12k damage too. But the funny thing I remember was the warrior had 800k health?
People can take "build diversity" and cram it up their ass.
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Splattercat_83✭✭✭✭Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.
One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.
To get those numbers you have to run a regen food, apply your own ele drain and keep potions on cool down, and know how to set up your champ points. You could sustain on group play far better with healers support.2 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭koralr33fer wrote: »Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!
It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played
I so agree with you. I said this long time ago in other comments, even about Zos' embarrassing biased Sorc favouritism - untouched by the nerf chainsaw along with pushing the Warden far past the Templar, and I was right.
After investing so much time in the game as a Templar, almost 5.000 hours (and so much money by all means), it's just too much for me to swallow.koralr33fer wrote: »Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!
It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played
You still have major. You have resto heavy attacks. You need major mending I'm sure it's going to be fine waiting to complete a resto heavy attack!
It's as much available to Warden through Restro Staff (3 seconds), but no they have it in Class. This is such a ridiculous argument. Is your main a Sorc?... (If so, you'll have your heals and DW buff I bet, no problem there). Pointing finger is so rewarding huh?
It was sarcasm, where did I put that dunce's hat?
Oh, and btw if removing the stun from the Templar Shards was to "simplify" the rotation/game for Templars (what a lie) then how come the Warden Shards get a "complicated" 4 second stun? Hypocrisy.Edited by Idinuse on April 20, 2017 1:44AMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?2 -
SickDuck✭✭✭✭✭Not saying pve and pvp forced marriage is the root of all evil in ESO but it's definitely a big hindrance. It is causing constant fiddling with the game design to "fix" issues.
But the weird thing is that pve and pvp are already separated only ZOS is in a denial. Which is bad because it should be separated properly with a well though concept. Instead we get beauty patches to hide the obvious flaws.
Pve and pvp is different. You need to use different gear, different stats and different skill bars to be effective in both. There is the Battle Spirit buff which I doubt that very trivial for inexperienced players. There is a trait for pvp fights (impenetrable). There are some skills that act differently when cast on players. And now we get stealth damage bonus removed from pvp plus a cp star that is only usable against players.
The bottom line is you cannot use your pve knowledge in pvp and vica versa if you want to get any good. With all these differences existing today it wouldn't be huge leap to separate the two properly. It would not change the effort for players but could do wonders for balance.Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner5 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭koralr33fer wrote: »Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!
It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played
I so agree with you. I said this long time ago in other comments, even about Zos' embarrassing biased Sorc favouritism - untouched by the nerf chainsaw along with pushing the Warden far past the Templar, and I was right.
After investing so much time in the game as a Templar, almost 5.000 hours (and so much money by all means), it's just too much for me to swallow.koralr33fer wrote: »Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!
It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played
You still have major. You have resto heavy attacks. You need major mending I'm sure it's going to be fine waiting to complete a resto heavy attack!
It's as much available to Warden through Restro Staff, but no, they have it in Class. This is such a ridiculous argument. Is your main a Sorc?... (If so, you'll have your heals and DW buff I bet, no problem there). Pointing finger is so rewarding huh?
It was sarcasm. No one is going to want to charge a resto heavy attack for major mending. I thought I made that obvious enough with the wording but I guess not.1 -
nraner81✭✭heres the thing, until people do quit ZoS will not change a thing.
I personally quit at the nerfpocalypse and only check in here occasionally as I did spend a TON of time and love on the game.
But as long as zos keeps rolling in the money and keeps people subscribed why would they change a thing?
I only hope that others do as I have done and write Bethesda(I know zos is technically a branch) and plead with them if they ever make other games NOT to let zos touch it. The game was great because it was/is an elder scrolls game.
Its not great cause zos keeps messing it up.....
There was a great quote from when I quit that a guy used about diablo devs didn't use nerfs cause it halted the greatness and killed enthusiasm. I see that ZoS still hasn't read that quote.PS4 NA Endgame tank/healer/runner/mag dps. Trials are why I play! I miss when Vdung were tough and fun.1 -
Quigster✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »I sort of agree but I'd take it in a slightly different direction.
ZOS should be introducing incremental balance changes on a regular basis. As in, bi-weekly or monthly. That way we don't get these massive reworks every 6 months, people can gradually adapt their builds to a meta that evolves rather than sprouting up overnight, and ZOS gets less heated feedback from the entire playerbase rather than just the PTS crew (which by definition excludes the 2/3 of the community).
This. So much this.
So much drama and lashing back at the devs could be flat out avoided if they did regular small incremental balancing.
Exactly. Many people who are upset over these changes are just feeling overwhelmed by the breadth. Small, incremental adjustments rolled out on the test server and evaluated with feedback would be much easier to come to terms with.(50) Quigster Bosmer Stamplar
(50) Lorithar Lightcrest Altmer Mag Sorc
(50) Tanius Magnitus Argonian Magplar
(50) Kalethar Redguard Stamplar
(50) Ra'Jo Darkstrike Khajiit Stamblade
(50) Gen Maximus Imperial Stam DK
(50) Jakon Fenrif Redguar Stam Sorc
(50) Revus Meredor Dunmer Mag DK
(50) Gorath the Silent Orc Stamblade
(31) Bjorn Ironhand Nord Stamplar
(28) Lord Devin Woodhearth Breton Magblade
Altaholic, CP 600+0 -
waterfairy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It seems like they refuse to acknowledge the need to separate pvp and pve because they don't want to put in the effort to give us what we need. It's more to program, more to patch and fix when things go wrong and more work that they can't be bothered with to please the players and fix the broken system they've made.
Even first person shooter games behave differently in story mode and multiplayer, why can't zos see the truth that they need to be separated, especially for this kind of game?0 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another HUGE problem for ZOS right now is the ways they are creating the very burnout psychology that loses them players.
The biggest example of this is their refusal to acknowledge how the failure to add a gear token system to dungeons, where people can save up currency over subsequent runs to be guaranteed to be able to get a specific item with exactly the trait they want after a specific number of runs, is directly responsible for burnout, of the cumulative sort that just lost them Deltia and others.
When a player has no guarantee they will ever get an item they want, or how long it will take, as is the case with the present pure-RNG system, this creates a negative confirmation bias that results in general feelings of hopelessness or pointlessness that will eventually keep them from bothering to log in.
The game becomes a chore. Other activities no longer compensate for the constant futility of progress. The monotony of the gear grind is never offset with the legitimate promise of reward. In a time when the world is already depressing and hopeless enough, people do not want to pay a company to subject themselves to more futile monotony as entertainment.
ZOS refuses to "get" this and it is one of their biggest failings as a company.
A gear token system would allow people to set a goal and have a real time frame in mind to fulfilling it, a positive reinforcement that would offset the never ending futility of pure RNG, which would allow the game to become something that RELIEVES the depressing aspects of real life, instead of ADDING to them.
By being able to say "if I just run this dungeon 5 times I will be guarenteed to have at least enough tokens to buy ONE of the set pieces that drop in that dungeon in whatever trait I want," you would keep people excited and hopeful and engaged and WANTING to run content.
Right now ZOS have created a miserable system of futility that only causes depression, anger, disappointment, and burnout.
If it is really just one guy that is hell-bent on keeping that system in place then the company needs to seriously ask themselves, "why are we floating a BILLION dollar franchise on one guy's obsession with creating futility and despair in our customers through a rigid RNG grind?"
Edited by Phinix1 on April 20, 2017 5:52PM2 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Phinix1 As much as I agree with you, I'm afraid ZOS will never change their approach to balancing the game. Looking at it from a company/efficiency pov, this is the most time efficient way to implement balance changes. They have always done it like this. ZOS simply cannot be arsed to steer their game into the right direction in a step by step manner. It is sad, but this is just their strategy. It is much easier to implement sweeping changes every 6 months and focus on adding fluff and cosmetics in the time between those 6 monthly balance patches. In the end, this game is b2p and the content/crownstore is where their money comes from...
So the nerfclear missile will never stop, flipping the meta as it burns through established ways of play.0 -
Villious✭✭✭I decided not to get Morrowwind as well. The lack of balance separation between PvP and PvE is killing this game for me.0
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Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wouldn't go so far as to say lack of separate balance for PVE and PVP will keep me from buying Morrowind, or even subbing, though this current patch proposal is WAY over the top and far too much at once to balance smoothly, which will just lead to unnecessarily protracted frustrations.
But what WILL continue to kill this game for more and more people is the current pure-RNG system for BoP gear drops in dungeons and trials, where you get a random drop, with a random trait, and no guarantee of EVER getting the piece you want.
It is the biggest cause of people's extreme resistance to otherwise adaptable changes. The fear of "having to do that grind all over" if the gear cap ever goes up, where even if they get the drop they want, they never really win, because they know one little change and it is back to never-ending randomness AGAIN.
That is a TERRIBLE design that leads people to give up. It is demoralizing, depressing, and if they honestly think it makes people run the content MORE, they need to have a very close look at the use data and do a professional sit-down with whoever is still pushing that notion.
Being able to trade items with the group was a good start but it wasn't enough to quell the real problem which is the PERCEPTION OF ATTAINABILITY. Random is still random.
A simple token system, where you earn currency for the current dungeon, and have enough to buy 1 piece of any BoP set that drops in that dungeon with the trait of your choosing after say 5 runs, would give people a cap on the "time to acquisition" that WOULD keep them POSITIVE and RUNNING CONTENT, both of which I believe are your goals as well and what is best for the life of the game.
That is the solution I have proposed for the better part of 2 years now.
This is having the opposite effect as intended, ZOS. Ask Deltia what the biggest burnout for him was. The patch notes was just the nail in the coffin from what I gather.
Why are you still fighting us on this? We ALL want the game to succeed. Just say it was something you were planning all along. It may even be true!
Edited by Phinix1 on April 21, 2017 1:34AM2
