Lessons to be learned from this, ZOS.

Phinix1

The whole approach to these PTS changes was poorly timed and felt rushed and not well thought through.

1) First, you don't push a radical reformulation of the entire game and progress system at the same time you are looking to sell a major expansion. Such radical changes are BOUND to upset people, especially those that have just finished a week of grinding and buying XP scrolls to get those CP.

Note for future efforts: Expansion first, radical re-balance LATER as a separate patch.

2) If you are going to take something away, give at least as much back. If you MUST make sweeping knee-jerk changes in response to one out-of-balance PVP meta, then at least put out the effort to add something to compensate. Obviously I believe that Mudcrabs having CC immunity in NO way offsets the fact that ALL of these problems are caused by the refusal (yes I now believe it is refusal when they make statements like that) to balance PVP and PVE separately.

So, they sort of screwed themselves right out the gate. Then they went way over the top with the resource nerfing. Of course that is my opinion. But the ONLY place this even mattes is PVP, so the statement from ZOS that "Mudcrabs have CC immunity so it is not a problem of not balancing PVP and PVE separately" is a flat dismissal of a legit problem.

It IS a lack of separate PVP and PVE balance. None of these changes were needed at all for PVE. This was 100% a blanket radical nerf chainsaw to the game and progress system purely for the sake of balancing infinite sustain builds in PVP. Mudcrab CC immunity has no bearing on it.

But they also could have added ANY of these things we have been waiting on for literally YEARS:

• Jewelry crafting and improvement.
• Armor re-styling (even for crowns).
• Weapon dying.
• Dungeon gear token system.
• Etc.

Having those things to finally look forward to would have mitigated the sting of these largely inappropriate changes.

TL:DR: Implement radical changes to balance AFTER an expansion has landed. Mudcrabs having CC immunity does not mean there is not a problem specific to PVP with infinite sustain builds. So balance this problem in PVP and leave PVE the heck alone and there would be no public outcry.

Acknowledging there is a problem is the first step to solving it and avoiding similar problems in the future. PVP balance NEEDING separate attention IS a problem. The fact ZOS is still in the denial phase ("Mudcrabs have CC immunity so there is no need to balance PVP separately") indicates these sorts of bad decisions will only keep happening until they stop assuming everyone is out to get them and start considering that maybe there is something more to this.

Phinix1

With regards to the "Mudcrabs have CC immunity" quote I sited above, here is the source:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

...we know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments. This is one of the reasons we added CC immunities to monsters; when ESO originally launched, you could knock the same mudcrab down over and over. The balance changes we made in this update are aimed at making gameplay more interesting in all areas of the game.

While I can appreciate the IDEA here I believe it is impossibly impractical to expect to ever succeed at such a thing in reality. PVP IS different. The play style, the goals, the strategies, the gear, the builds, EVERYTHING. You can't just deny this fact because you would personally prefer to live in a world were it wasn't so. IT IS SO. Denying it will only make the problem worse, and cause you MORE problem in the future.

Besides, you don't HAVE to change how abilities WORK in PVP. JUST RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. I get what you are saying. You don't want someone to spam wrecking blow in PVP to great success then come into PVE and wonder why the same button isn't netting them top DPS. But realistically, most of the responsibility here is on the PLAYER. You have 5 slots on 2 bars to customize your build for the task at hand. That is how the system was designed. To be adaptable. To content and also to group composition.

ZOS needs to step back and ask if the reason they are trying to homogenize everything, which undermines "class feel" they have said they want to preserve, might be all for some completely misguided notion that there will ever by perfect symmetry between skills and strategies in PVE and PVP. In a quality game, that should never be the goal either. More diversity of play = more lifespan and a larger audience. Why undermine that, and why would anyone want to live in such a world?

SOLUTION: This whole problem stems from infinite sustain builds unbalancing PVP. You didn't have to change the way skills worked to fix this, so the argument is moot. All you had to do was implement the resource nerfs to PVP only and there would be no problem.

ZOS this is a case of your own stubbornness or inability to comprehend the problem becoming your own worst enemy plain and simple.

Pallio

Also, play the game. Don't just listen to only the feedback from the loudest voices, run vMA until you get the infernal staff with sharpened trait, that EVERYONE wants and have to grind over and over 100 times to get. Run HM vet trial content to test effectiveness of builds, dont just listen to Fengrush complain about what ever killed him most recently or failed to die fast enough in PVP, although he may be one of the best PvP players, he is not focused on or concerned with the results of a nerfs impact in pve, to improve pvp. Yes he is a great resource to improve pvp, but, someone has to also consider the impact to endgame pve.

xeNNNNN

Thank you for stating what I wanted to say in that thread in which the source resides.

I tried to respond coherently myself but I was angry. Still am actually.

It incenses me to think that ive put money into this "continuing product" and found nothing but arrogance and blind commitment. I think in truth the main reason why im angry is not just the changes and how they've been implemented but the fact that they seem to refuse to even acknowledge the lack of a seperate balance as the problem and are still committed too it despite the evidence right infront of them just to save face and I swear if this is another developer stint at "artistic/creativity integrity" I am just going to flat out quit.

I dont think it was the youtubers who went down to ZoS caused any of this at all. I think this was all rushed together too look like they were doing something about it after seeing what their statistics showed during the double AP week and thats just sad. I expected better from them to be honest much better. To say I'm disappointed with them is an understatement. The loss of two slots each year for loyal subs was bad enough but this as well? I didnt think it could get this ridiculous. I assumed they were smarter. The 2 slots a year I could deal with. The changes right now? its going to take all the fun out of playing. Its going to be a chore.

Rushed, poorly thought out and a horrible direction for the game all the while trying to hard sell something that would of already sold. Bad Just plain BAD.

Brazen_Blade

Phinix1 wrote: »

1) First, you don't push a radical reformulation of the entire game and progress system at the same time you are looking to sell a major expansion. Such radical changes are BOUND to upset people, especially those that have just finished a week of grinding and buying XP scrolls to get those CP.

Note for future efforts: Expansion first, radical re-balance LATER as a separate patch.

I couldn't agree more. They have to possess some clue how this was going to go down, based on past player reactions to far less sweeping changes. Now they are probably facing a PR dilemma only weeks before their much hyped (and very first) expansion.

Julianos

Phinix1 wrote: »

The whole approach to these PTS changes was poorly timed and felt rushed and not well thought through.

1) First, you don't push a radical reformulation of the entire game and progress system at the same time you are looking to sell a major expansion. Such radical changes are BOUND to upset people, especially those that have just finished a week of grinding and buying XP scrolls to get those CP.

Note for future efforts: Expansion first, radical re-balance LATER as a separate patch.

2) If you are going to take something away, give at least as much back. If you MUST make sweeping knee-jerk changes in response to one out-of-balance PVP meta, then at least put out the effort to add something to compensate. Obviously I believe that Mudcrabs having CC immunity in NO way offsets the fact that ALL of these problems are caused by the refusal (yes I now believe it is refusal when they make statements like that) to balance PVP and PVE separately.

So, they sort of screwed themselves right out the gate. Then they went way over the top with the resource nerfing. Of course that is my opinion. But the ONLY place this even mattes is PVP, so the statement from ZOS that "Mudcrabs have CC immunity so it is not a problem of not balancing PVP and PVE separately" is a flat dismissal of a legit problem.

It IS a lack of separate PVP and PVE balance. None of these changes were needed at all for PVE. This was 100% a blanket radical nerf chainsaw to the game and progress system purely for the sake of balancing infinite sustain builds in PVP. Mudcrab CC immunity has no bearing on it.

But they also could have added ANY of these things we have been waiting on for literally YEARS:

• Jewelry crafting and improvement.
• Armor re-styling (even for crowns).
• Weapon dying.
• Dungeon gear token system.
• Etc.

Having those things to finally look forward to would have mitigated the sting of these largely inappropriate changes.

TL:DR: Implement radical changes to balance AFTER an expansion has landed. Mudcrabs having CC immunity does not mean there is not a problem specific to PVP with infinite sustain builds. So balance this problem in PVP and leave PVE the heck alone and there would be no public outcry.

Acknowledging there is a problem is the first step to solving it and avoiding similar problems in the future. PVP balance NEEDING separate attention IS a problem. The fact ZOS is still in the denial phase ("Mudcrabs have CC immunity so there is no need to balance PVP separately") indicates these sorts of bad decisions will only keep happening until they stop assuming everyone is out to get them and start considering that maybe there is something more to this.

lol dont waste your breath

LiquidPony

I sort of agree but I'd take it in a slightly different direction.

ZOS should be introducing incremental balance changes on a regular basis. As in, bi-weekly or monthly. That way we don't get these massive reworks every 6 months, people can gradually adapt their builds to a meta that evolves rather than sprouting up overnight, and ZOS gets less heated feedback from the entire playerbase rather than just the PTS crew (which by definition excludes the 2/3 of the community).

DuckNoodles

All ZoS needed to do is nerf or remove CP sustain! And modifie CP categorys.

I just cant believe how stupid the skill nerfs are its ridiculous!

Leave the skills alone!

You fool me once, you fool me twice but not a 3rd time, i guarantee.

So i cancelled my morrowind pre order today.

I know what ZoS are like, if these nerf/skill changes go through, witch is more then likely becuase 90% of there PTS changes always make it to the live server.

It will take ZoS another 3 months to figure it out that it was a wrong direction to go in, and then another 3 months to change it back to the way it was.

koralr33fer

Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!

It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played

koralr33fer

PS...you've had 2 Months to fix the broken dungeon finder on consoles....and have been busy buffing ur new warden to increase sales...

What's makes you think people will be eager to spend money to expand a game that you refuse to fix? You are setting yourself up for more problems and you've yet to fix the old ones.....

JimT722

koralr33fer wrote: »

Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!

It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played

You still have major. You have resto heavy attacks. You need major mending I'm sure it's going to be fine waiting to complete a resto heavy attack!

xeNNNNN

koralr33fer wrote: »

Ya I'm sure some of it is balancing and trying to increase the need for resource management in the game but....they've nerfed sooooo much on my templar healer, shards are same as orbs, repentance is worthless now, and a reduction from major mending to minor....but who gets it....you guessed it...the shiny new WARDEN!

It seems this is to just make the warden more appealing, which it already was to me. But now that I've seen the drastic changes coming to a char I've invested a lot of time into just to get nerfed this hard...I honestly don't think I want to invest the time into doing it all again just to get screwed again in chapter 2. I was going to buy the update, but now that I feel you are requiring me to, to have have a class that is unique now...almost feels like i've been played

I know the feeling and completely understand.

I was going to preorder in a week or so. Now im not. I intially cancelled my sub due to the whole 2 quater loss of DLC content for subs a while ago. Two weeks ago I resubbed because I wanted to look past it and move on and keep enjoy the game I love now though.........Just no. I regret my resub and I will NOT purchase morrowind until something changes. I just cant do it. It would be like buying a new chore for myself.

Kinda feels like all that time since beta has been wasted and the fun ive had along the way has been great but... yeah. This is just....mind numbingly frustrating.

Phinix1

To be fair Gina did say they are looking to maybe reduce the ease of Warden getting Major Mending to be more in balance.

As it stands they get it from a passive. When they heal someone under 50% health with one of their healing tree abilities, they get Major Mending for 6 seconds. Obviously this will make them the default PVP healing powerhouse, as in PVP you or a group member are going to be at 50% pretty much constantly during fights, so they will be constantly refreshing that buff and basically getting 100% Major Mending uptime.

100% Major Mending uptime was precisely the reason they stated they were removing it from Templars, so obviously this needs rethinking.

Also, 3 seconds of Major Mending from a fully charged resto heavy attack which takes FOREVER to complete is pretty much USELESS.

Pallio

Also on the timing, currently you have the most upset customer outrage I have seen in these three years. Last week you had the Crown sale finally, next week the Island house is coming out and everyone WAS excitedly waiting for the next DLC and pre-ordering etc. You SHOULD be riding high right now, except for this terrible patch. Sales will drop, refunds will be requested, subs will be dropped. Probably the worst marketing strategy I have ever seen, in hindsight.

usmcjdking

REMOVE CC IMMUNITY FROM MUDCRABS

Phinix1

usmcjdking wrote: »

REMOVE CC IMMUNITY FROM MUDCRABS

Mudcrab OP. All know it to be true.

Tholian1

usmcjdking wrote: »

REMOVE CC IMMUNITY FROM MUDCRABS

The mudcrabs are teaching me how to PvP.

Sigtric

LiquidPony wrote: »

I sort of agree but I'd take it in a slightly different direction.

ZOS should be introducing incremental balance changes on a regular basis. As in, bi-weekly or monthly. That way we don't get these massive reworks every 6 months, people can gradually adapt their builds to a meta that evolves rather than sprouting up overnight, and ZOS gets less heated feedback from the entire playerbase rather than just the PTS crew (which by definition excludes the 2/3 of the community).

This. So much this.

So much drama and lashing back at the devs could be flat out avoided if they did regular small incremental balancing.

Egonieser

Lord @FENGRUSH has a 2.5h long video about these patch notes, the longest yet i believe! Been chomping at the bit to watch it and now i have a few hours of peace to do so!
Dis gun b gud!

SirDopey

Comon dude, this has hardly been rushed. There's been talk of major resource changes for months now, many of my guild mates have been running around with no CP in cost reduction passives in anticipation of this.

I feel like everyone crying over these changes must be newer players than have come into the game when resource management wasn't an issue, all they are doing is trying to bring the game back to where it was before power creep took over.

Anyone that has been playing this game for a while knows that resource management use to be a fundamental aspect of this game, and the god honest truth is that part of the game went a long time ago. I mean, does anyone use a single cost reduction/regen glyph anymore? When was the last time someone crafted Seducer armor?

These changes are going to bring build diversity back into the game and improve the overall experience for everyone so I think we should all slow down on the tears.

JimT722

There are so many skills that aren't used because they aren't worthwhile that could have used work. Many of the interesting skills that made a class feel like it brought something unique are being destroyed. Why just destroy skills with synergies that people love without attempting to improve the massive amounts of completely useless skills.

ZOS needs to figure out what they want classes to accomplish. If it is to have unique gameplay styles, then they need to think about what that is. Everything that seems like a niche ability to one class is gutted and distributed, making everything seem bland.

Julianos

SirDopey wrote: »

Comon dude, this has hardly been rushed. There's been talk of major resource changes for months now, many of my guild mates have been running around with no CP in cost reduction passives in anticipation of this.

I feel like everyone crying over these changes must be newer players than have come into the game when resource management wasn't an issue, all they are doing is trying to bring the game back to where it was before power creep took over.

Anyone that has been playing this game for a while knows that resource management use to be a fundamental aspect of this game, and the god honest truth is that part of the game went a long time ago. I mean, does anyone use a single cost reduction/regen glyph anymore? When was the last time someone crafted Seducer armor?

These changes are going to bring build diversity back into the game and improve the overall experience for everyone so I think we should all slow down on the tears.

Im still using seducer armor on my sorc Also there was soft and hard caps back then and pools were way too smaller.

JDC1985

Forget this stupid game and these ignorant changes im done I will not be buying this trash and I know 100s if not more people that are leaving as well have fun in your craptain server zos.

Phinix1

SirDopey wrote: »

Comon dude, this has hardly been rushed. There's been talk of major resource changes for months now, many of my guild mates have been running around with no CP in cost reduction passives in anticipation of this.

The problem isn't the resource changes themselves. By "rushed" I mean poorly thought through and badly implemented changes which largely go against the very design philosophies ZOS themselves say they were shooting for, and which end up causing more problems then they solve because of it.

ZOS has repeatedly stated how "class identity" is one of the most important concepts in their design process. Then they make sweeping homogenizing changes like making Templar Spear and Undaunted Orbs basically the same, and turning it into an RNG ability that restores less overall of whatever resource is lowest at the time, removing skill and control from the player.

Where is my Undaunted version of NB cloak of escaping?

Or removing a skill-based ability like Repentance restoring resources to the group while claiming the changes were to improve skilled play. Or giving a new class essentially 100% uptime on a major buff in PVP while completely removing it from another on a whim. The problem is refusal to balance PVE and PVP separately.

The whole thing seems like a knee-jerk response to PVP sustain meta that went way to far, and should never have been an issue in the first place if they weren't for some reason so adamant against just balancing PVP and PVE separately.

I still can't comprehend their resistance in that regard.

SirDopey

Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.

One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.

Julianos

JDC1985 wrote: »

Forget this stupid game and these ignorant changes im done I will not be buying this trash and I know 100s if not more people that are leaving as well have fun in your craptain server zos.

Finally a constructive comment

xeNNNNN

SirDopey wrote: »

Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.

One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.

I would love to know how much you pve as a magdk in trials or any mag class tbh and still pull around 40k dps. My mag sorc pulls 40k - 44k most of the time now and yet I still run out of magicka, if it wasnt for me having attacking a lot and healers keeping my resources up id run out quite a lot tbh. Though I suppose "A lot" depends on your definition of the quantitative value of "a lot" but whatever.

Becuase honestly, you pop the pots for regen and you have maybe like 830 base and then 1000 when popping a pot for 40s.

Mag sustain has nothing to do with people not managing their resources but everything to do with healers managing them for them. Without them the DPS drops massively. so for a start DD's and Tanks should not of been punished for healing absurdities. Note: I have a healer and have had one for the better part of the last 2 years.

Stam is even worse and quite possibly hardest hit even more so with this patch due to the 5% increased cost to all stam abilities but on top of that vigor stams main source of heals is now 30% more costly ontop of that 5% so yeah...

Most of the sustain frustrations was coming from PvP, stamblades and stamdk's running troll king on top of vigor and then woodelves running around with absurd stam regen in pvp just tipped the balance.

and now here we are....

So the training group im in has just over a month to beat execute phase on rakkhat in vmol before this crap goes live. cool.

I would also love to see videos of people pulling 35k + on robust skeletons consistently and sustained just saying.

SirDopey

xeNNNNN wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.

One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.

I would love to know how much you pve as a magdk in trials or any mag class tbh and still pull around 40k dps. My mag sorc pulls 40k - 44k most of the time now and yet I still run out of magicka, if it wasnt for me having attacking a lot and healers keeping my resources up id run out quite a lot tbh.

Becuase honestly, you pop the pots for regen and you have maybe like 830 base and then 1000 when popping a pot for 40s.

Mag sustain has nothing to do with people not managing their resources but everything to do with healers managing them for them. Without them the DPS drops massively. so for a start DD's and Tanks should not of been punished for healing absurdities. Note: I have a healer and have had one for the better part of the last 2 years.

Stam is even worse and quite possibly hardest hit even more so with this patch due to the 5% increased cost to all stam abilities but on top of that vigor stams main source of heals is now 30% more costly ontop of that 5% so yeah...

Most of the sustain frustrations was coming from PvP, stamblades and stamdk's running troll king on top of vigor and then woodelves running around with absurd stam regen in pvp just tipped the balance.

and now here we are....

So the training group im in has just over a month to beat execute phase on rakkhat in vmol before this crap goes live. cool.

Are you PC/NA? Jump on tonight if you are. Got a buddy that's been playing MagDK for 2 weeks now, he was hitting 37k DPS on the skele two nights ago, I was appling ele drain and that was it.

In trials on a Sorc he pulls 52k DPS over 5 minutes

Tholian1

SirDopey wrote: »

Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.

One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.

What happens to players that aren't accomplishing those numbers and struggle with resource management? Are the nerfs going to somehow not filter down to them and reduce their numbers further? That's what confuses me about this. The good players will be slightly challenged and the mediocre players are having the challenge dialed up even further? Am I missing something that actually helps players that already find the content very challenging?

Phinix1

SirDopey wrote: »

PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing.

Anyone can do 35k-40k dps if the test lasts less than 1 minute. Show me a video of someone that isn't a top 5% player doing 35k-40k DPS over a prolonged (5-10 minute) test without resource support.

Homogenization and class-defining skills being stripped down aside, these resource changes aren't going to improve PVE at all. Here is my prediction: People will keep stacking damage, dump some points into restoring more resources from heavy attacks (if they even bother), and just heavy attack to full before returning to their rotations. Maybe weaving in some more heavy attacks in between where convenient.

What is the point? Certainly not worth all this collateral damage. Certainly nowhere NEAR the issue of immortal PVP sustain builds. Particularly when it comes to the "power gap" impressions of newer players.

It isn't the ability to sustain DPS on a target dummy that is putting new people off the game, it is going up against builds in PVP that seem immortal and never run out of resources. It is a PVP issue with PVE consequences as we have seen so many times before.

All ZOS really needs to do is tweak the Battle Spirit debuff they already have in place and make a few tooltip tweaks to specific skills to make them work slightly differently in PVP.

The "balance by chainsaw" needs to stop. Seriously.

xeNNNNN

SirDopey wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Agree completely with the two templar skill changes, as I've said with my other posts I support 95% of the changes. Those two fall into the 5% category.

One think I am 100% not buying into, is the PVE/PVP balancing conversation and that the resource changes are being forced onto us because of PVP meta. That's absolute rubbish, PVE needs these changes just as much as PVP. Look at the amount of players that are doing 35 - 40k DPS on the Robust skeletons with no support. That's BS, there is no resource management in that, its button mashing. It use to be that you geared towards longer but lowers DPS or insane burst that lasted a minute max. Now we just have endless insane burst.

I would love to know how much you pve as a magdk in trials or any mag class tbh and still pull around 40k dps. My mag sorc pulls 40k - 44k most of the time now and yet I still run out of magicka, if it wasnt for me having attacking a lot and healers keeping my resources up id run out quite a lot tbh.

Becuase honestly, you pop the pots for regen and you have maybe like 830 base and then 1000 when popping a pot for 40s.

Mag sustain has nothing to do with people not managing their resources but everything to do with healers managing them for them. Without them the DPS drops massively. so for a start DD's and Tanks should not of been punished for healing absurdities. Note: I have a healer and have had one for the better part of the last 2 years.

Stam is even worse and quite possibly hardest hit even more so with this patch due to the 5% increased cost to all stam abilities but on top of that vigor stams main source of heals is now 30% more costly ontop of that 5% so yeah...

Most of the sustain frustrations was coming from PvP, stamblades and stamdk's running troll king on top of vigor and then woodelves running around with absurd stam regen in pvp just tipped the balance.

and now here we are....

So the training group im in has just over a month to beat execute phase on rakkhat in vmol before this crap goes live. cool.

Are you PC/NA? Jump on tonight if you are. Got a buddy that's been playing MagDK for 2 weeks now, he was hitting 37k DPS on the skele two nights ago, I was appling ele drain and that was it.

In trials on a Sorc he pulls 52k DPS over 5 minutes

I would love to but im EU unfortunately.

Just take a screen or something. I'll know if its editing anyway. Because photoshop is fun. ^^ Quite possible though, but im hitting 31k on robust skeletons then jumping from 40k-44k in vmol then 50k+ if all the buffs are up at the right times etc but not in vmol of course. Im not bad but im not amazing either.