Smasherx74 wrote: »

1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.

2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.

3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.



I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.

I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.


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Generally, I would disagree to your points. But seeing how they nerfed classes to accommodate the Warden, makes me think that ZoS as a company is just greedy. I mean, I understand that they're running a business and have to earn. But what baffles me is that why nerf existing classes? Everyone was going to buy Morrowind regardless of the nerf. Maybe not everyone wants to play the Warden class, but I'm pretty sure every PvP-er will want Battlegrounds, and every PvE-er will want to quest in Morrowind or do the new trial. Heck, I was even expecting returning players to buy Morrowind.

Is ZoS that insecure how Morrowind will sell? Or I think the better question would be, is the Warden class the only good thing that Morrowind has to offer? If you haven't pre-ordered the Expansion Pack yet, I suggest to hold on to your credit cards, the EP may NOT be worth buying.

Smasherx74 wrote: »

1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.

2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.

3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.



I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.

I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.


[Edit to remove mention of moderator action]

1) Racial passives in general are minimal at best. The bonuses they provide do not sway the battle in any direction.

2) BiS gear has no merit when it comes to winning. An individual could have the best gear in the game and still fail if said person does not know how to play the toon.

3) There is no indication that the warden class will be either better or worse than any other class in the game as of right now. The nerfs you speak of are not to make the warden shine or to give it a chance. People were interested in playing the class before any of these nerfs were shown. The hype to play it was there.

The true definition of a pay to win game are ones that allow players to purchase things that will give them a major, and I mean MAJOR, advantage against other things no matter the skill of the player. They cold be the worst player in the game, but when they buy the particualr items that give them the advantage, the become the top dogs with out trying.

And here is the thing people forget about pay to win stuff. Any item that you would purchase that would give you the advantage cannot be adjusted through patches and nerfs. It must remain godlike forever. Everything they are introducing can and will be adjusted through future game patches. Now, if they ever said that they would not touch the warden class and leave it super amazing, then maybe it would be pay to win. Skill is still involved. That will not happen. This game is not pay to win. Go put on your tin foil hat and go back to your little corner in the basement.

Hammy01 wrote: »

@AndrewQ84 ... just playing devils advocate to your first two points.

"1) Racial passives in general are minimal at best. The bonuses they provide do not sway the battle in any direction.

2) BiS gear has no merit when it comes to winning. An individual could have the best gear in the game and still fail if said person does not know how to play the toon."

If the player in what i quoted has no skill then yes neither the gear or the passives will matter much but lets say both players are in the top 1% (Ie cream of the crop) most likely the player that has the Absolute BIS gear and the BIS race for his class will win 90% or more of the time. Good players could play naked and still beat bad players but to say racial passives and BIS gear have no real impact is not true, that extra mag/stam/health/mag regen/stam regen/etc adds up in the long run!!

This would still not be pay to win. Pay to win implies that no matter what happens, no matter your or any other players skill, you would win because you bought this item/gear/character/race/etc. It's in the name. Pay to Win. Not pay to lose. All of those points that I was making do not guarantee victory. Best of the best of the best players do not encompass the vast majority of the player base. Even in the scenario you brough in, race does not always guarantee a win. There is always the chance to lose. If you give a crappy player the BiS gear from the DLC's, it does not guarantee they win. Do they have a chance? Maybe. But not a guaranteed win every single time. The same applies to any other thing that is release with a paid expansion or DLC. Classes and races included. Just because you bought Morrowind and play a warden, does not mean you are guaranteed a win so it does not count as pay to win.

Ticare wrote: »

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

This would still not be pay to win. Pay to win implies that no matter what happens, no matter your or any other players skill, you would win because you bought this item/gear/character/race/etc. It's in the name. Pay to Win. Not pay to lose. All of those points that I was making do not guarantee victory. Best of the best of the best players do not encompass the vast majority of the player base. Even in the scenario you brough in, race does not always guarantee a win. There is always the chance to lose. If you give a crappy player the BiS gear from the DLC's, it does not guarantee they win. Do they have a chance? Maybe. But not a guaranteed win every single time. The same applies to any other thing that is release with a paid expansion or DLC. Classes and races included. Just because you bought Morrowind and play a warden, does not mean you are guaranteed a win so it does not count as pay to win.

No that's not what Pay to win implies. You will always beat a keyboard drooler who doesn't even know how to use attacks in any game. Pay to win in MMO's means getting an advantage by using money that cannot be gotten without using money. Ie. getting BiS gear or best classes only with money.

Pay to progress is a lesser version of Pay to win. Pay to progress means getting things faster with money but they can still be obtained without money. The examples in this thread were strictly Pay to win.

Then the name needs to change to Pay to "Gain an advantage over other players". P2W means I am going to win if I buy this. That does not happen with all the examples of what ESO is doing. This game is not pay to win. And for the record, it's standard practice to do what ESO does with it's DLC's and Expansions. By your definition, that would mean every single MMO that does expansions and paid dlcs is considered a pay to win game. Which means there are no pay to win games since all of them are (the whole if everyone is special then no one is) and this discussion is moot.

P2W or P2P? Either if you don't play a Warden you are forced to play a subpar alternative.

The user and all related content has been deleted.

ESO is going to P2W, first they introduced crown store exclusive crafting motifs. Master crafters had to either buy these or start losing customers to other crafters having exclusive motifs. Then they added more and more items to the game while the playerbase wanted to have reliable increase in banking/inventory slot, and only thing we get is double bank space with ESO+ and crafting bag with ESO+.

PvP players wanted to have small scale balanced pvp and all we get is a battleground behind a paywall that can only be unlocked IF you pay more than the base game cost. Oh and you CANNOT buy it with your stocked CROWNS or unlock it with ESO+.

For all those that think P2W is being able to buy end tier item directly from store you let me remind you fixing issues of the game with DLC/real money is also P2W, it is 2017 people. Base game value drops considerably in each passing patch. Back then you could buy the base game and have ALL features, now you HAVE TO pay extra for end game content ??? Good luck for a vanilla ESO owner trying to play PvE or PvP, both of their end game content are behind paywall/microtransaction. You can safely play out in Cyrodiil for zerg (much worse version in regard with rewards and fun compared to IC and now the new BGs) or PvE in Craglorn (worse version of premium trials).

If you like to have 6 mules then you can feel content with general direction of the game and call it fair. Now I only buy a month of ESO+ store everything on the crafting bag, farm/buy all materials I can buy/find/decon. when it ends I simply unsubscribe not to give more money for simply enough convenience...

If I were in ZOS' shoes then I would get tired of the whole P2W arguments real quick.

-They could just lock off interaction between players with and without the advantages entirely.
-They could just create higher level content for p2w constituents only, so that you don't have the ability to suffer from unfair advantages to begin with.
-They could just close up shop and go back to a subscription based system (like most mmo's), so they can drop p2w but still make money.

Not taking any sides here, just saying to be careful what you wish for bud.

Man. I remember the old days.

1. Pay for game.
2. Still have to pay for subscription.
3. Pay for expansion.
4. Repeat

But, I can see the disappointment people have. Seems rather than introducing a new class with a new niche, that niche is being artificially created.

Game is not, I repeat, Pay 2 Win. But that does not alleviate the resentment of basically having your toys taken away and given to the new kid.

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I sincerely encourage you to take the time to look up and understand what Pay 2 Win actually means, and where it originated from. Because - no offense OP - but you are starting to embarrass yourself.

You can't embarrass yourself if you have no shame.