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ESO is P2W and here's why.
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ManwithBeard9✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You know, if you read everything the OP says in the Donald's voice, it all makes sense.11 -
Smasherx74✭✭✭✭✭
✭This guy has clearly never played Asian trash MMO shop2win games.
There is nothing about this game that is pay2win. Nothing. I can't go buy something off the shop and one shot everything. I can't subscribe and suddenly run record VMA's. I can't buy god like equipment or stats for cash.
You're whining because you want something but don't want to pay for it. Go ahead, if it makes you feel better. But trying to use your injured sense of entitlement as justification for "p2w" really doesn't support your argument.
You don't know what you're saying.
P2W is anything that you pay for to gain an unfair competitive advantage.
It's not as black and white as buying a OP gun and 1 shot killing everyone. Sorry but things just aren't that simple, please consider reading my OP before posting again.Master Debater5 -
Rev Rielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭I sincerely encourage you to take the time to look up and understand what Pay 2 Win actually means, and where it originated from. Because - no offense OP - but you are starting to embarrass yourself.If you can be anything, be kind.6 -
ManwithBeard9✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »This guy has clearly never played Asian trash MMO shop2win games.
There is nothing about this game that is pay2win. Nothing. I can't go buy something off the shop and one shot everything. I can't subscribe and suddenly run record VMA's. I can't buy god like equipment or stats for cash.
You're whining because you want something but don't want to pay for it. Go ahead, if it makes you feel better. But trying to use your injured sense of entitlement as justification for "p2w" really doesn't support your argument.
You don't know what you're saying.
P2W is anything that you pay for to gain an unfair competitive advantage.
It's not as black and white as buying a OP gun and 1 shot killing everyone. Sorry but things just aren't that simple, please consider reading my OP before posting again.
Major Mending doesnt make you OP if you hit like a wet noodle (Flame Lash from DKs)0 -
CaiWenji✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.
2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.
3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.
I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.
I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.
Hopefully since my past 2 threads about this topic have been removed, this one can be more progressive. Oh and btw.
Yeah I do agree unfortunately. Many say oh those templars were way OP and had it coming for awhile. My response then is, why now? Why 2 nerfs in a row just a tiny bit of time before this new Warden is released?
If templars were oh so powerful, why did it take over 3 whole YEARS for these nerfs? Furthermore, will we have a massive roll back to the beginning since my Captain Rank in Alliance war on my Templar and first char Geedo must have been unjustly earned!
Of course you won't roll back because you how ridiculous that would be. Wiping for some people 3 LONG YEARS of play time. So, then why after all this time are you messing around with ORIGINAL class skills?
If Warden is good let that stand alone for itself. Don't crap on my old healing class just to make warden look good!
Edited by CaiWenji on April 19, 2017 1:01AM6 -
Jadednatas✭✭✭My templar occassionally heavy attacks with resto for res.. i'm winning cause i will still get major mending.. i'm paying by reading this nonsense1 -
Sn1per0✭✭✭Is it just me or doesn't the resto staff give major mending after a HA.
Not pay to win and I'll still out heal any warden with my templar.
/thread2 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here are some hypothetical questions.- The best tanking class in the game, (before this patch) was pretty much DK. That was rarely disputed but you could still tank on other classes and be competative. If DK was behind a paywall instead of warden, would that be P2W?
- If a paywall class is clearly the BEST at one role (tanking/healing/DPS) is that p2w?
- If a paywall class is the best at ALL roles, is that P2W?
Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on April 19, 2017 1:07AM5 -
Despite✭✭✭Any advantage that a player can purchase for IRL $ is P2W.
This includes things like +XP potions, Imperial Race, Warden Class.
Hell, even cosmetic items can be considered P2W because to some players dressing up is all that they care about.
So yeah, ESO has actually been P2W since launch and gets more so all the time.Imperial Vamp DK since 20145 -
Gothlander✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.
2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.
3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.
I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.
I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.
Hopefully since my past 2 threads about this topic have been removed, this one can be more progressive. Oh and btw.
They removed your threads? ZoS is becoming like Google, FB, Twitter. Censoring anyone with big followers who don't share the same corrupt views as them.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
TESO needs a wardrobe system badly. Something similar to WoW's tmog system would make this game one of the best mmorpg out there!3 -
Smasherx74✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rev Rielle wrote: »I sincerely encourage you to take the time to look up and understand what Pay 2 Win actually means, and where it originated from. Because - no offense OP - but you are starting to embarrass yourself.
P2W means paying for an unfair competitive advantage.
I've explained, and proven this true. If you want to debate whether major mending or other things that everyone else got nerfed but warden kept op then that belongs in the patch notes discussion.Master Debater4 -
Smasherx74✭✭✭✭✭
✭Any advantage that a player can purchase for IRL $ is P2W.
This includes things like +XP potions, Imperial Race, Warden Class.
Hell, even cosmetic items can be considered P2W because to some players dressing up is all that they care about.
So yeah, ESO has actually been P2W since launch and gets more so all the time.
Pretty much what I've been trying to get at.
I've even said it's up for argument whether it's just literal P2W or generally labeled as P2W.
I personally believe even with the changes made this wont be as P2W intensive as other games such as ArcheAge.Master Debater3 -
CaiWenji✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »Rev Rielle wrote: »I sincerely encourage you to take the time to look up and understand what Pay 2 Win actually means, and where it originated from. Because - no offense OP - but you are starting to embarrass yourself.
P2W means paying for an unfair competitive advantage.
I've explained, and proven this true. If you want to debate whether major mending or other things that everyone else got nerfed but warden kept op then that belongs in the patch notes discussion.
This game is supposed to be against p2w. I mean they joked with the bucket and broom in crown store tab calling it pay to lose! But making it pay 2 win will actually make it pay to lose for ZOS as they will lose thousands of customers who love this game for the fairness it still almost completely provides.
But you give mouse a cookie and it want milk. Give an inch and they will take a mile. I just hope it does NOT get out of hand like what happened in PWI. Cash shop Op gear and refines. Look at that game now? It made them a couple buck for a bit and now the WHOLE community roasts them on Facebook and on their forums while a few members left cling to it.
It would stab my heart if that happened to this awesome game. This game had haters online and a bad reputation at first. But I myself have always defended and promoted the ZOS staff and game itself! I just feel a bit betrayed as my favorite class gets all changed.
Like is Templar Cinderella and Warden the ugly stepsister bringing it down?Edited by CaiWenji on April 19, 2017 1:19AM4 -
Despite✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »Any advantage that a player can purchase for IRL $ is P2W.
This includes things like +XP potions, Imperial Race, Warden Class.
Hell, even cosmetic items can be considered P2W because to some players dressing up is all that they care about.
So yeah, ESO has actually been P2W since launch and gets more so all the time.
Pretty much what I've been trying to get at.
I've even said it's up for argument whether it's just literal P2W or generally labeled as P2W.
I personally believe even with the changes made this wont be as P2W intensive as other games such as ArcheAge.
Sure, it's entirely subjective. The usually argument is that if it doesn't give you a clear and overwhelming advantage in PVP/PVE then it isn't P2W, but I think that's wrong.
Let's take housing. My GF plays ultra casually and has very little in game gold and almost no crowns. She can't buy a house without working for it for a looooong while. Well, here comes Mr. American Express card who buys up every furnished house available. From her point of view it's absolutely P2W.
Now from a PVE/PVP players point of view, assuming Warden is going to be OP when released and it probably will be, Warden seems like a must have. Oh but hey, I can't afford Morrowind, but Mr. American Express card sure can! From this person's point of view Morrowind and the Warden are 100% P2W.Imperial Vamp DK since 20144 -
CaiWenji✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »This guy has clearly never played Asian trash MMO shop2win games.
There is nothing about this game that is pay2win. Nothing. I can't go buy something off the shop and one shot everything. I can't subscribe and suddenly run record VMA's. I can't buy god like equipment or stats for cash.
You're whining because you want something but don't want to pay for it. Go ahead, if it makes you feel better. But trying to use your injured sense of entitlement as justification for "p2w" really doesn't support your argument.
You don't know what you're saying.
P2W is anything that you pay for to gain an unfair competitive advantage.
It's not as black and white as buying a OP gun and 1 shot killing everyone. Sorry but things just aren't that simple, please consider reading my OP before posting again.
And don't say that toe! I bought morrowind 3 times over! Me my bro and I sent 40$ through PayPal my my friend and guild mate could get it. Of course I will play warden and was super hyped before. But if I could now I'd rather get $40 back for my copy stick to my now crappy Templar and buy costumes and furnished houses I could!1 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Smasherx74 wrote: »ManwithBeard9 wrote: »Its not P2W, this will be locked too.
How is it not P2W? I just gave you multiple reasons why it's P2W.
The argument it's not P2W is only valid in the non-literal sense. And now that they've nerfed things to make Warden more OP, that argument is invalid.
Actually agree with this guy. Hear me out (don't throw stones, yet).
They just gave us 3 weeks of double exp and a crown sale (that can't apply to morrowind) to get people to level alts/buy houses. They smash every class but sorc, amd nerf regen, cp, skill cost, and utility skills in a single update prior to releasing more endgame content.
^They do this immediately after the double exp so you can't make a toon based off the nerfs. To be perfectly honest, the timing of the exp even/patch coupled with such overbearing nerfs/skill removals prior to a trial release is dubious in even the best light. Also, why are we having a significant balance update in the middle of a quarter like this?
I may be dusting off my tinfoik hat here but no matter you look at this patch you're getting shafted one way or another. They promised more balance changes later, so maybe after enough morrowind copies have sold they'll nerf warden a bit.
I doubt warden will be p2w, but they're at least making it appear that way, probably intentionally.3 -
CaiWenji✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »This guy has clearly never played Asian trash MMO shop2win games.
There is nothing about this game that is pay2win. Nothing. I can't go buy something off the shop and one shot everything. I can't subscribe and suddenly run record VMA's. I can't buy god like equipment or stats for cash.
You're whining because you want something but don't want to pay for it. Go ahead, if it makes you feel better. But trying to use your injured sense of entitlement as justification for "p2w" really doesn't support your argument.
You don't know what you're saying.
P2W is anything that you pay for to gain an unfair competitive advantage.
It's not as black and white as buying a OP gun and 1 shot killing everyone. Sorry but things just aren't that simple, please consider reading my OP before posting again.
And don't say that toe! I bought morrowind 3 times over! Me my bro and I sent 40$ through PayPal my my friend and guild mate could get it. Of course I will play warden and was super hyped before. But if I could now I'd rather get $40 back for my copy stick to my now crappy Templar and buy costumes and furnished houses I could!
Not even going to bother to fix these typos. Have been off game for a bit with Easter celebrations but finally get back on and break from forum.0 -
ManwithBeard9✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ep1kMalware wrote: »Smasherx74 wrote: »ManwithBeard9 wrote: »Its not P2W, this will be locked too.
How is it not P2W? I just gave you multiple reasons why it's P2W.
The argument it's not P2W is only valid in the non-literal sense. And now that they've nerfed things to make Warden more OP, that argument is invalid.
Actually agree with this guy. Hear me out (don't throw stones, yet).
They just gave us 3 weeks of double exp and a crown sale (that can't apply to morrowind) to get people to level alts/buy houses. They smash every class but sorc, amd nerf regen, cp, skill cost, and utility skills in a single update prior to releasing more endgame content.
^They do this immediately after the double exp so you can't make a toon based off the nerfs. To be perfectly honest, the timing of the exp even/patch coupled with such overbearing nerfs/skill removals prior to a trial release is dubious in even the best light. Also, why are we having a significant balance update in the middle of a quarter like this?
I may be dusting off my tinfoik hat here but no matter you look at this patch you're getting shafted one way or another. They promised more balance changes later, so maybe after enough morrowind copies have sold they'll nerf warden a bit.
I doubt warden will be p2w, but they're at least making it appear that way, probably intentionally.
Except we had a heads up from PAX and from ESO Live Streams that the CP reworks and sustain adjustments were already in the pipeline. They were well known to those on the forums and on Twitch what was coming in regards to CP and sustain.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »ManwithBeard9 wrote: »Explain to me how the Warden can out DPS, tank, heal, any other class? How will the Warden post record times/points for VMA? How will Warden make Rakkhat Vet HM so easy you only need 6 Wardens? How will Warden make obtaining Emperor in PVP easier than ever? And no, Major Mending will not be the deciding factor in any of this.
I don't know, and it doesn't matter.
They have an inherit competitive advantage over other classes due to the recent nerfs on everyone.
Edit: This isn't a debate, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm stating facts. Nerfing everyone to have unreliable major mending then giving Warden reliable major mending is a literal display of paying for unfair competitive advantages over others. P2W.
You are confusing facts with opinion. There is no way you can know at this time if Warden will have a competitive advantage. Major mending is not a game changer.
Many of the people I trust for really top builds remain surprisingly unimpressed with the Warden skills and beyond the novelty of saying they leveled one see no real point in playing one. Of course that is their opinion and right now opinion is all any of us have.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe things arn't absolutes but grey. In the grey area but leaning towards not pay to win. Maybe pay to perk?
Take magdk, I can go magdk, get bsw, skoria, and seducer. No extra content needed and have a strong meta set. Only set for heavy armor that vould perform well would be black rose. Otherwise all content accesible to everyone is fine
Magsorc, dmg sets (not the one from imperial prison and amberprism), lich, and helm. Only two set option would be from content.
Stam nb, similar. I couldnt have a stam nb with velidreth (but could get selenes).
I think people forget the reality of capitalism. Maybe one day when we sieze the means of production through directly democratic councils, federated internationally, we can have free access to all. Until then, eso will have to do thinks like play a salary, health care (I *** hope) a severence check for wrobel
, and please stock holders. 1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.
2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.
3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.
I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.
I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.
[Edit to remove mention of moderator action]
1) I've had Imperial Edition and never played as a Imperial so that wasn't really pay to win I feel.
2) Of course new sets come in DLCs and these new sets are designed with the knowledge won by having worked on the game up until that point. That'd be like calling any MMO pay to win for introducing new sets in DLC.
3) Fair. Get vocal on that, stay vocal, they will listen to feedback if we stay on them."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
Villious✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »ManwithBeard9 wrote: »Explain to me how the Warden can out DPS, tank, heal, any other class? How will the Warden post record times/points for VMA? How will Warden make Rakkhat Vet HM so easy you only need 6 Wardens? How will Warden make obtaining Emperor in PVP easier than ever? And no, Major Mending will not be the deciding factor in any of this.
I don't know, and it doesn't matter.
They have an inherit competitive advantage over other classes due to the recent nerfs on everyone.
Edit: This isn't a debate, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm stating facts. Nerfing everyone to have unreliable major mending then giving Warden reliable major mending is a literal display of paying for unfair competitive advantages over others. P2W.
I actually LOL'd.1 -
Villious✭✭✭wolfdoggie_ESO wrote: »Not having inventory space feels like loosing so crafting bag/double bank space feels like pay2win.
Bull.
Majority of us who've been here from the beginning lived with no crafted bag for a long ass time and frankly it was a inconvience nothing more nothing less.
Seriously, we're calling bank space and bag space pay to win these days?
How far MMO communities have fallen. Its really effing sad. It really is.
Most of these people have no clue what pay 2 win actually is. They're just parroting the phrase they've seen other people parrot.2 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭ManwithBeard9 wrote: »Ep1kMalware wrote: »Smasherx74 wrote: »ManwithBeard9 wrote: »Its not P2W, this will be locked too.
How is it not P2W? I just gave you multiple reasons why it's P2W.
The argument it's not P2W is only valid in the non-literal sense. And now that they've nerfed things to make Warden more OP, that argument is invalid.
Actually agree with this guy. Hear me out (don't throw stones, yet).
They just gave us 3 weeks of double exp and a crown sale (that can't apply to morrowind) to get people to level alts/buy houses. They smash every class but sorc, amd nerf regen, cp, skill cost, and utility skills in a single update prior to releasing more endgame content.
^They do this immediately after the double exp so you can't make a toon based off the nerfs. To be perfectly honest, the timing of the exp even/patch coupled with such overbearing nerfs/skill removals prior to a trial release is dubious in even the best light. Also, why are we having a significant balance update in the middle of a quarter like this?
I may be dusting off my tinfoik hat here but no matter you look at this patch you're getting shafted one way or another. They promised more balance changes later, so maybe after enough morrowind copies have sold they'll nerf warden a bit.
I doubt warden will be p2w, but they're at least making it appear that way, probably intentionally.
Except we had a heads up from PAX and from ESO Live Streams that the CP reworks and sustain adjustments were already in the pipeline. They were well known to those on the forums and on Twitch what was coming in regards to CP and sustain.
Yeh. I get that. I'm not as salty about just that 1 thing. Tbh I could bring my stamplar into a vmol group and no one would complain as long as I didn't kill my teamates and pulled 33k dps. Would they prefer magdk or sorc? You bet ur ass! Would I get kicked if I was holding my group up by spreading aids/being slow? Damn right. But I could still do it. NOW I can do it. Those cp are overperforming now bit they sure as *** didn't feel like it when getting my magdk to a good dps. Hell I even posted here about it.
If it wasn't for that 'over performing' cp I would have deleted my magdk, and just done vmol on stam templar when they had 2magdks amd room for a mele dps. There's no way in hell I would have had the tolerance to dial in a magdk. To be perfectly *** honest, my resources only feel unlimited if I'm in a solid well organized guild run.
Those cp didn't feel so overperforming when I was struggling learning content, and I don't believe any single player in eso can say that cp felt too good to be true while they were learning harder content. How many of you had sustain issies ur irst go vma last boss on lich crystals? Or your first run of vmol, or hell, the first time you did vso hardmode, or aa hardmode.every one of you did.
my problem with the cp nerfs is that means others will have a hell of a time getting where I'm at. I'm not too upset about it, cuz I already got here. I'll adjust my build, amd move on. Iritated, but Im in a good guild, ill adjust. Newbies won't make it this far, and I expect quite a few 3year+ dedicated players to up and leave over it. That means to keep doing what the guild does, we need to players to not struggle pulling 15k dps so we can get them in a trial.
Tl;dr
Cost reduction is weetoddedd but I'll adjust. The combination of efrrything in my last post is what makes my blood boil. Feels like an absolutr *** you to myself and everyone of my guildmates just to make another dollar.
Edited by Ep1kMalware on April 19, 2017 3:02AM2 -
Mondini✭✭✭✭Smasherx74 wrote: »1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.
2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.
3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.
I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.
I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.
[Edit to remove mention of moderator action]
While I can't comment on imperial, as I didn't play at launch, how else would you expect them to add item sets? It's not like people with these new sets tower over you and are immune to anything you do. They have to be able to introduce new item sets to the game and they do this with DLC.
as for the warden class. If you don't think that major mending on templar was overperfoming then you need to get a head check. The only way to get that buff is by channeling a full resto heavy, which then only lasts for 3 seconds or be a templar and stand still. Really, does that not seem op to you? To stand still and receive 25% more healing? literally casting one huge aoe skill and stand still? It was over performing. Templars still get minor mending, 8% for standing still. Thats pretty good buff for standing still. I can't really emphasise this anymore. Wardens have to heal someone below 50% to get this buff. Which means It wont have 100% uptime like templars currently get.
If you are gunna play warden to get major mending, then you have a l2p issue. Templars are gunna be strong healers because they are reactionary compared to wardens which just have huge HoT's. The dynamic is going to be pretty good between them.
Tl;Dr OP complaining about a buff with 100% uptime obtained from standing still and calling it's nerf p2w1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I survived when magicka sorcs were being kicked from groups at the start, people will survive this. Besides, we have what 7 weeks until Morrowind launches? Let's hope that those in the Beta are vocal about what needs fixed and give honest feedback (instead of senseless "raaaawr muh fave isn't dominating I will say EVERYTHING IS BAD" which we do know some people do)"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Here are some hypothetical questions.- The best tanking class in the game, (before this patch) was pretty much DK. That was rarely disputed but you could still tank on other classes and be competative. If DK was behind a paywall instead of warden, would that be P2W?
- If a paywall class is clearly the BEST at one role (tanking/healing/DPS) is that p2w?
- If a paywall class is the best at ALL roles, is that P2W?
Typically P2W denotes a distinct advantage without reasonable alternatives, but being the best doesn't directly correlate to P2W. It has to be so much better that the other "options" are barely options due lack of viability. In the case of 'better', it would have to be so much better that even a middle range of player skill could not overcome the advantage. However I also consider real money transactions that bypass otherwise ridiculous time sinks (a year or more of time) or ludicrous RNG (multiple layers of 0.001% drop rates) as candidates for P2W as well.
Also most P2W is found in Free to Play business models, particularly in PVP, but can also be in PVE. With Buy to Play it's rather upfront that new content, including classes will need to be purchased.0 -
Synfaer✭✭✭✭✭I am sure no other MMO has ever released a pay for expansion in my living memory that features new stuff that is not accessible to the people who don't buy the expansion.....
Really OP...get off your utopian arse, earn some bunnies and buy the expansion if you want to enjoy some new stuff like the rest of us instead of expecting everything for free because you bought the game X years ago and so are entitled to access everything developed from then on till the end of time.
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hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭Smasherx74 wrote: »1) At laucnh Imperial Race was introduced which meant anyone wanting to use imperial passives for optimal building would need to pay for it.
That was fine, it wasn't dramatic or as huge of a competitive edge.
2) First DLC is released, with exclusive items(sets).
That was the first real taste of P2W we had. To get BiS gear you had to pay. Much more dramatic than the imperial race, but still not as bad as other games that are P2W.
3) Warden class is introduced. At first it appeared to be Pay To Play, but now they've nerfed everybody and nerfed specific things like Major Mending so that Warden will have that inherit advantage.
This is the biggest P2W thing introduced thus far. If you want reliable major mending for example, you have to play warden. Removing/nerfing skills to make a new class/skill the only viable option is a huge unfair competitive advantage and is P2W.
I understand the economic reasons behind P2W, I'm not arguing why ZOS is doing this, I'm arguing why this is P2W.
I understand Warden may not be the best class in the world at everything, but they sure as hell do have specific abilities to counteract the nerf on other class abilities.
[Edit to remove mention of moderator action]
1) People now realize that blood diamond is only good for PvE tanking.
2) DLC sets can be bought with gold.
What's your point again?Edited by hmsdragonfly on April 19, 2017 5:29AMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0