Anyone else underwelmed by Warden?

Vosital · April 2017

I heard they were making a nature-based class called the Warden. After looking at the abilities, I don't really see this class being good at anything. DKs will still be better tanks, Templars will still be better healers, and Sorcs will still be better DPS.

There is only 4-5 damage abilities vs. every other class which has 8-9. Even with that being said, the resource management does not even seem that great. From what I've seen, Betty Netch only gives like 3-4k magika/stamina over 25 seconds. That is insanely low if you think about it.

For me personally, the most disappointing aspect of the class though is the neglect for stamina. Multiple stamina morphs (Dive, Feral Guardian) do not get any addition effect on the stamina morph. One of the actual good DPS skills, Swarm, does not even get a stamina morph.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed?

Stamden · April 2017

These were my major concerns too. Although I think the class has a lot of potential.

They really do need to improve stamina, and maybe make Betty Netch scale off max resource pools. Something like, "Restore a % of magika/stamina every second for 25 seconds" would be really nice. Once they do those changes, then it's just a matter of making the passives better.

I am hoping Morrowind PTS starts soon so we can actually communicate with Zenimax about this. There is plenty of time to improve this class, but it is a matter of if they listen to feedback or not.

Strider_Roshin · April 2017

They are going to be ridiculously overpowered in PvP. If you can't see it then you need to look at their abilities again.

Their resource management is going to be among the best with their class passives and Betty.

As far as Damage dealing is concerned, they're going to be very strong if they go magicka, but yeah stamina looks underwhelming, but this is ESO after all.

As a tank, I see them doing very well as a hybrid ice/SnS tank build

From a first glance I think their Sleet ultimate needs either nerfed or reworked, major maim needs to go, and the stamina morphs need love.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

Sleet storm is terrible, why do you think it needs to be nerfed? It's almost identical to veil of blades, buy it only lasts 8 seconds compared to veils 17-18 second duration.

Major maim is also on a 6 second delay from the time you cast it. Reread the ability - it takes 6 seconds after cast for the field to start doing anything. That's a hell of a lot of time for the bad guys to move.

Stamina morphs are definitely in need of some improvements. Imo the shalk ability needs to be changed to a 10 second duration and the animation needs major improvement. I'd suggest having it summon 3 bugs in a row that burst with a damage cloud every 3 seconds, with a burrow up and burrow back into the ground effect at the beginning and end of the animation. The base ability should summon thunderbugs and deal lightning damage, the magicka morph should summon shalks and deal fire damage, and the stamina morph should summon assassin beetles and deal poison damage. The aoe major fracture + breach is definitely going to make it an awesome ability for tanking though.

The stamina morph for cliff racer needs an additional effect, maybe minor fracture or lowered cost. The stamina morph for the Guardian should deal additional damage - in the original reveal it did 12% more than the self reviving morph, but now that's gone.

I know a lot of people want a stamina swarm morph, but I don't see it happening. Theres only so many stam morphs for each class, and the people who wanted stamina healing got it at this cost with one of the fungal growth morphs using stamina.

For the ice tree, I think arctic wind either needs a do over or a massive improvement. 20% of max health over 10 seconds is a crap heal, even dragon blood is better. I'd like to see it either boosted to 30-40% of max health, or changed into amother damage ability. However, despite the outrage from everyone who wanted frost dps, I think it should still scale off of health. This is a tanking tree, and ice magic is tanking oriented now, and I actually like it that way. I'm really hoping that hybrid warden tanks will have a damage output that makes them somewhat comfortable to Solo with, unlike every other tank right now that takes hours to kill anything.

All in all though, I'm really looking forward to making the warden my new main. I've gotten burned out on the other classes, and this looks like it will be the first class with a truly hybrid playstyle built into it. I've wanted viable hybrids for a while now and they've finally listened.

Elsonso · April 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sleet storm is terrible, why do you think it needs to be nerfed? It's almost identical to veil of blades, buy it only lasts 8 seconds compared to veils 17-18 second duration.

Major maim is also on a 6 second delay from the time you cast it. Reread the ability - it takes 6 seconds after cast for the field to start doing anything. That's a hell of a lot of time for the bad guys to move.

If I am in combat for 10 seconds, it is either a boss fight or something is really wrong. So, most times, I am in combat for less than 10 seconds. The 6 second delay will be worthless for me for most fights. The sleet storm duration is about right for my normal use.

ADarklore · April 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They are going to be ridiculously overpowered in PvP. If you can't see it then you need to look at their abilities again.

Their resource management is going to be among the best with their class passives and Betty.

As far as Damage dealing is concerned, they're going to be very strong if they go magicka, but yeah stamina looks underwhelming, but this is ESO after all.

As a tank, I see them doing very well as a hybrid ice/SnS tank build

From a first glance I think their Sleet ultimate needs either nerfed or reworked, major maim needs to go, and the stamina morphs need love.

You mean the ability that gives like 100 Magicka/s??? Whereas Elemental Drain offers 400/s and is also free. I just don't see this being worth slotting except if your running Necropotence without the bear or want to buff your Animal passives.

Strider_Roshin · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They are going to be ridiculously overpowered in PvP. If you can't see it then you need to look at their abilities again.

Their resource management is going to be among the best with their class passives and Betty.

As far as Damage dealing is concerned, they're going to be very strong if they go magicka, but yeah stamina looks underwhelming, but this is ESO after all.

As a tank, I see them doing very well as a hybrid ice/SnS tank build

From a first glance I think their Sleet ultimate needs either nerfed or reworked, major maim needs to go, and the stamina morphs need love.

You mean the ability that gives like 100 Magicka/s??? Whereas Elemental Drain offers 400/s and is also free. I just don't see this being worth slotting except if your running Necropotence without the bear or want to buff your Animal passives.

It's more than just a single passive or ability that gives this class incredible resource management. If you don't see it, that's not my problem.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

I'm just happy it's not interesting enough to grind another character. The mount speed kills alts for me.

Waffennacht · April 2017

I saw a decent amount, but I haven't seen everything, is everything released now?

And is it possible changes will occur prior to release?

olsborg · April 2017

Dive does not need a buff for stamina, its already undodgeable ranged atk.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They are going to be ridiculously overpowered in PvP. If you can't see it then you need to look at their abilities again.

Their resource management is going to be among the best with their class passives and Betty.

As far as Damage dealing is concerned, they're going to be very strong if they go magicka, but yeah stamina looks underwhelming, but this is ESO after all.

As a tank, I see them doing very well as a hybrid ice/SnS tank build

From a first glance I think their Sleet ultimate needs either nerfed or reworked, major maim needs to go, and the stamina morphs need love.

You mean the ability that gives like 100 Magicka/s??? Whereas Elemental Drain offers 400/s and is also free. I just don't see this being worth slotting except if your running Necropotence without the bear or want to buff your Animal passives.

For tanks, if you stack block cost reduction and cp passives, the bull netch can potentially give enough stamina to allow permablocking. That's what I'm going to use it for anyway. It covers blocking cost, and I can use constitution to regain enough stamina to taunt without ever letting block down.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sleet storm is terrible, why do you think it needs to be nerfed? It's almost identical to veil of blades, buy it only lasts 8 seconds compared to veils 17-18 second duration.

Major maim is also on a 6 second delay from the time you cast it. Reread the ability - it takes 6 seconds after cast for the field to start doing anything. That's a hell of a lot of time for the bad guys to move.

If I am in combat for 10 seconds, it is either a boss fight or something is really wrong. So, most times, I am in combat for less than 10 seconds. The 6 second delay will be worthless for me for most fights. The sleet storm duration is about right for my normal use.

Obviously it isn't for solo use, most ultimates arent. The warden is all about group support, and in this case veil completely out classes it.

Stamden · April 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

I saw a decent amount, but I haven't seen everything, is everything released now?

And is it possible changes will occur prior to release?

Here is full list of skills and morphs: http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2017/04/13/warden-guide-skill-lines-and-abilities

Yes, it's entirely possible that they can change stuff after release. But Zenimax has a really bad track record with balancing. It would be much, much better if the Warden were viable on release. It would also help sell more copies of Morrowind.

ADarklore wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They are going to be ridiculously overpowered in PvP. If you can't see it then you need to look at their abilities again.

Their resource management is going to be among the best with their class passives and Betty.

As far as Damage dealing is concerned, they're going to be very strong if they go magicka, but yeah stamina looks underwhelming, but this is ESO after all.

As a tank, I see them doing very well as a hybrid ice/SnS tank build

From a first glance I think their Sleet ultimate needs either nerfed or reworked, major maim needs to go, and the stamina morphs need love.

You mean the ability that gives like 100 Magicka/s??? Whereas Elemental Drain offers 400/s and is also free. I just don't see this being worth slotting except if your running Necropotence without the bear or want to buff your Animal passives.

Exactly. The amount of resources this skill gives is so minimal that it is simply not worth casting.

The stam morph also gives Major Brutality, which is the same buff as Rally so you're going to be getting it anyway. There is simply no reason to use this ability on a stam build, unless you do some bow/bow setup which will still be terrible unless Swarm gets a stam morph.

Joy_Division · April 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sleet storm is terrible, why do you think it needs to be nerfed? It's almost identical to veil of blades, buy it only lasts 8 seconds compared to veils 17-18 second duration.

Sleet Storm moves with you unlike Veil of Blades.

In stationary PvE boss fights, then yes, Veil is better.

In PvP, mobility is king and having an AoE major Protection move with a group is ridiculously strong.

Vosital · April 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sleet storm is terrible, why do you think it needs to be nerfed? It's almost identical to veil of blades, buy it only lasts 8 seconds compared to veils 17-18 second duration.

Major maim is also on a 6 second delay from the time you cast it. Reread the ability - it takes 6 seconds after cast for the field to start doing anything. That's a hell of a lot of time for the bad guys to move.

If I am in combat for 10 seconds, it is either a boss fight or something is really wrong. So, most times, I am in combat for less than 10 seconds. The 6 second delay will be worthless for me for most fights. The sleet storm duration is about right for my normal use.

Obviously it isn't for solo use, most ultimates arent. The warden is all about group support, and in this case veil completely out classes it.

Veil doesn't move with you, Sleet does. Sleet is much better for the same reason that Destro ult is better than Standard of Might.

This class has a lot of problems, but Sleet Storm is not one of them. That ult is decently strong.

Stamden · April 2017

If anything, Sleet may need nerfs in the future just cause it is so strong in zerg v. zerg play. At this point though, I am not about to ask to make this class worse. Wardens need all the help they can get at the moment.

lucky_Sage · April 2017

how do yall know yall havnt played them stop saying they need nerfs and buffs

the only thing I'm disappointed at is they made winters embrace tank skill line

Stamden · April 2017

lucky_Sage wrote: »

how do yall know yall havnt played them stop saying they need nerfs and buffs

Because Zenimax has a terrible track record when it comes to changing things. Here are some things that never get changed:

-Sorcs have been the best all around damage class for years now and they just keep buffing them and making that gap worse (especially with pets).
-DKs have had insane ability cost, terrible resource management, and many broken skills for years.
-NBs have been useless in endgame PvE content for the entirety of the game.
-Stamina setups have been terrible for almost the entirety of the game.

This stuff gets brought up every patch cycle and never gets addressed. Zenimax does not fix the problems with their game. So now is the time to make sure Warden is viable. When there is clear problems, this is the time to change it. Keep in mind many people have already played the Warden class and have confirmed these issues with the Warden.

Jawasa · April 2017

@Neighbor not 100% true mageblade was top dps in early trials.

Stamden · April 2017

Jawasa wrote: »

@Neighbor not 100% true mageblade was top dps in early trials.

I dunno, when Trials first drops DKs were pretty amazing due to dynamic ulti gen. You could have like 2 standards up at once. We ran like 8 in our group to hit top times, which you can see here:

https://youtu.be/vVZBT-5TtXI

After dynamic ulti gen and DK nerfs, I am pretty sure we have always had best results with straight Mag Sorcs since then.

Jawasa · April 2017

Yeah magdk was great but mageblade was not useless they did come in second if i remeber correctly.

DragonBound · April 2017

Vosital wrote: »

I heard they were making a nature-based class called the Warden. After looking at the abilities, I don't really see this class being good at anything. DKs will still be better tanks, Templars will still be better healers, and Sorcs will still be better DPS.

There is only 4-5 damage abilities vs. every other class which has 8-9. Even with that being said, the resource management does not even seem that great. From what I've seen, Betty Netch only gives like 3-4k magika/stamina over 25 seconds. That is insanely low if you think about it.

For me personally, the most disappointing aspect of the class though is the neglect for stamina. Multiple stamina morphs (Dive, Feral Guardian) do not get any addition effect on the stamina morph. One of the actual good DPS skills, Swarm, does not even get a stamina morph.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed?

Only in ice not being able to be dps or more of a hybrid support for groups while dpsing, what annoys me is that there is a ton of ways to tank and they added one more, the other skill lines and animations look great.

Stamden · April 2017

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

I heard they were making a nature-based class called the Warden. After looking at the abilities, I don't really see this class being good at anything. DKs will still be better tanks, Templars will still be better healers, and Sorcs will still be better DPS.

There is only 4-5 damage abilities vs. every other class which has 8-9. Even with that being said, the resource management does not even seem that great. From what I've seen, Betty Netch only gives like 3-4k magika/stamina over 25 seconds. That is insanely low if you think about it.

For me personally, the most disappointing aspect of the class though is the neglect for stamina. Multiple stamina morphs (Dive, Feral Guardian) do not get any addition effect on the stamina morph. One of the actual good DPS skills, Swarm, does not even get a stamina morph.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed?

Only in ice not being able to be dps or more of a hybrid support for groups while dpsing, what annoys me is that there is a ton of ways to tank and they added one more, the other skill lines and animations look great.

Yeah I really wish they dropped the whole "tanking" mantra too and just stuck with a DPS/Healer/Support type thing. Trying to strongly fulfill all the roles in one singular class is not going to happen, and it is just going to result in being weak in all areas.

technohic · April 2017

I actually think they have a little bit of everything for a well rounded character. Probably makes it not great for PVE where you might want to go full heal, tank, or DPS; but in PVP, they should be pretty decent.

Vosital · April 2017

technohic wrote: »

I actually think they have a little bit of everything for a well rounded character. Probably makes it not great for PVE where you might want to go full heal, tank, or DPS; but in PVP, they should be pretty decent.

Magika will probably be pretty good for PvP. For Stamina, you'd be much better off going Stam Sorc or NB.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

I heard they were making a nature-based class called the Warden. After looking at the abilities, I don't really see this class being good at anything. DKs will still be better tanks, Templars will still be better healers, and Sorcs will still be better DPS.

There is only 4-5 damage abilities vs. every other class which has 8-9. Even with that being said, the resource management does not even seem that great. From what I've seen, Betty Netch only gives like 3-4k magika/stamina over 25 seconds. That is insanely low if you think about it.

For me personally, the most disappointing aspect of the class though is the neglect for stamina. Multiple stamina morphs (Dive, Feral Guardian) do not get any addition effect on the stamina morph. One of the actual good DPS skills, Swarm, does not even get a stamina morph.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed?

Only in ice not being able to be dps or more of a hybrid support for groups while dpsing, what annoys me is that there is a ton of ways to tank and they added one more, the other skill lines and animations look great.

There are FAR more ways to dps than there are to tank. Up until recently, shield was the only option for tanking.

Some people may not like it, but frost is the tanking element now, and I think it's better that way.

Stamden · April 2017

Lynx7386 wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

I heard they were making a nature-based class called the Warden. After looking at the abilities, I don't really see this class being good at anything. DKs will still be better tanks, Templars will still be better healers, and Sorcs will still be better DPS.

There is only 4-5 damage abilities vs. every other class which has 8-9. Even with that being said, the resource management does not even seem that great. From what I've seen, Betty Netch only gives like 3-4k magika/stamina over 25 seconds. That is insanely low if you think about it.

For me personally, the most disappointing aspect of the class though is the neglect for stamina. Multiple stamina morphs (Dive, Feral Guardian) do not get any addition effect on the stamina morph. One of the actual good DPS skills, Swarm, does not even get a stamina morph.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed?

Only in ice not being able to be dps or more of a hybrid support for groups while dpsing, what annoys me is that there is a ton of ways to tank and they added one more, the other skill lines and animations look great.

There are FAR more ways to dps than there are to tank. Up until recently, shield was the only option for tanking.

Some people may not like it, but frost is the tanking element now, and I think it's better that way.

Frost tanking is still a joke compared to regular, stamina based tanking though. Even if the passives and skills were equivalent, even if heavy attacking to taunt was safer.. there is always going to be the extra slot you get with SnB vs. Frost Staff. I think that is the real deal breaker, the fact that you can go 5/5/2 with SnB and can't with a staff.

STEVIL · April 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

I heard they were making a nature-based class called the Warden. After looking at the abilities, I don't really see this class being good at anything. DKs will still be better tanks, Templars will still be better healers, and Sorcs will still be better DPS.

There is only 4-5 damage abilities vs. every other class which has 8-9. Even with that being said, the resource management does not even seem that great. From what I've seen, Betty Netch only gives like 3-4k magika/stamina over 25 seconds. That is insanely low if you think about it.

For me personally, the most disappointing aspect of the class though is the neglect for stamina. Multiple stamina morphs (Dive, Feral Guardian) do not get any addition effect on the stamina morph. One of the actual good DPS skills, Swarm, does not even get a stamina morph.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed?

Only in ice not being able to be dps or more of a hybrid support for groups while dpsing, what annoys me is that there is a ton of ways to tank and they added one more, the other skill lines and animations look great.

There are FAR more ways to dps than there are to tank. Up until recently, shield was the only option for tanking.

Some people may not like it, but frost is the tanking element now, and I think it's better that way.

Frost tanking is still a joke compared to regular, stamina based tanking though. Even if the passives and skills were equivalent, even if heavy attacking to taunt was safer.. there is always going to be the extra slot you get with SnB vs. Frost Staff. I think that is the real deal breaker, the fact that you can go 5/5/2 with SnB and can't with a staff.

But you can effectively 5-5-2 with staff if you pick the right sets and some of them fit right in... sets where the 5pc bonus is a big thing but only "when you use ulti" or things like warlock (or lich?) which trigger magica gains (sizeable ones) but only once per min or 30s. Warlock back bar and tanking ice magica block... not terrible combo and the "lost" slot is a complete non-issue.

i would still likely stick with inner rage to taunt tho - hvy taking so much more time.

Part of the diversity that is caused by having two-handed weapons count differently than two one-handed weapons - when you look to optimize you find different answers for 4-4-1/1 than 5-5-2.

CaptainPocky · April 2017

Forgetting tanking and DPS for a second, Wardens certainly won't be bad healers.

They will realistically be the only class with Major Mending now (excluding the useless Resto heavy attack proc), and they give a 10% max health buff that is unattainable by any other method. Worried though that they can't throw shards for stam? Worry not! They changed necro orb to give the exact same returns and even share the cooldown of shards.

The only thing Temps will still have over them is Breath, but honestly a good healer would generally be fine without that & just Healing Springs anyway, let alone possibly replacing it with either the Warden's mushroom or "Tarzan" heal.

Warden healers, as they stand, need to be toned down compared to the huge nerfs Templars (& even the poor, rare DKs healers) got. This is coming from someone who has done every fight but HM Rakkat on every role.

SkylarkX · April 2017

"Blue Betty - Call a Betty Netch that restores Magicka over 25 seconds. Gain Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% over 27 seconds. When activated, removes 1 negative effect. This ability has no cost."

People are saying it restores 3-4k over 25 seconds? That's equivalent to about 320 recovery, about what you would get from amberplasm + it gives major sorcery AND a cleanse all FOR FREE.

lol that's amazingly good - I don't understand why people would complain.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

I get the feeling blue Betty won't restore magicka if you spam it for the cleanse.