Create your own group, invite only people who you think have some clue of what they're doing. Problem solved.

@Hallothiel
Inner Fire or the first 1h and shield skill are the two skill taunts in the game.

Heavy attack with a frost staff also taunts but it's not preferable.


I know I'm not the best player. I start every dungeon run saying I'm open to advice, skill requests, and suggestions. Do I get any advice? No.

I've never had a truly terrible pug that was eye meltingly horrible yet. I had dps that wouldn't take adds off me (healer) to the point where I was just BoLing the entire time and one that turned into a werewolf in vICP... I've wiped so many times I broke all my armor on my first ever nWGT as the tank.

Everytime I assume it's my fault. That I'm not doing enough dps (even though I never queue as dps), that I'm not dodging fast enough, that I don't have better gear.... I never get advice though. Even when I ask. "don't die" and "don't pull first" <-- those two were given to me by a dd that had a lot to say, posted their numbers, died first, and fell off a bridge in EH....................

I only participate in group content when I'm feeling ZEN af. I've come to the conclusion that people who want advice only get groups with those who can't be arred and People who don't want advice only get groups with the over-competent (aka those people who can't empathize with someone having less comprehension than them)

Don't pug if you aren't ready to dole out some goodwill to your fellow pixel. Take a cleansing breath and Just accept the reality that pugs are never going to be a cake walk.

Training camps would be another good tool to use if a player so chooses. But should not bar entry into any dungeons.

I do agree that the game needs to do more to educate players about how to play their roles in a group. Normal questing just doesn't do that, and leaves me to believe that ZoS does expect the teaching to come from more experienced players in the group.

I have played for almost 2 years now and have only completed maybe 6 group dungeons. I stopped because most of those times, there was a player that wasn't performing well enough for the group leader and they would insult and complain until the person would quit. Somehow I managed to avoid such abuse even though I had no clue what I was doing either. Rather than risk it happening to me, I just stopped doing them.

After gaining 500 CPs and 2 years of questing, I still have no clue about proper rotation, dungeon mechanics or how to properly play my role in a group.

Tandor wrote: »

Endgame competitive trials etc are different things altogether, but basic dungeons shouldn't require players to pass a test or do homework on Google and Youtube in order to participate (once they've changed their build, gear and approach to the game following their research), and no-one should expect them to do so.

If the more discerning players want only to play with those of equal skill and experience to themselves then they shouldn't use PUG tools but stick to playing with those of their guildmates and friends who have proven themselves to be worthy of their company.

Meanwhile, they might ask themselves why so many MMO players prefer to solo these days rather than find themselves the butt of scorn and derision because they just want to play a game and not be bothered with all the elitist stuff that dominates a lot of the group agenda.

@Tandor It's not about being 'elite' skilled, it's about knowing what a heal, taunt or rotation is at all. Many players end up in VETERAN dungeons without a clue, left clicking and occasionally popping a spell or two in a mishmash of gear. No aoe avoiding, no food or potions, no idea what the role they applied for has to do, plenty of these people do not communicate whether there's a language barrier (translated callouts zos?) or their chat is off/ignored/unnoticed.

I don't ask for my dungeon run to be 15 or even 30 minutes, but it would be lovely if less of them ended up lasting an hour+ with multiple player replacements and instances of basic game mecganics having to be explained. Not knowing the dungeon is a-okay, not knowing about the game is not for veteran difficulty.

The finder is a role of the dice. If you want a sure thing, join a guild and make friends. You can only change yourself. You can't change other people.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

All The Best

I disagree. I will often go out of my way to help someone if I have the time.

But, even a whisper from a stranger asking for a quick bit of help say killing a world boss, can often end up taking 30 mins for whatever reason, and often I log in to to a particular thing and don't really have spare time, if I do, then I will help.

What you are saying is its my role and duty. No, I sub and play to have fun, not forced to be some strangers teacher.

Imagine you love swimming, go every day. But each day there's people who can't swim properly getting in your way. Is it your duty to teach them to swim like you?

Or you are playing 5 a side soccer, you sign up for a team, you get to the field only to find two members of your team have never played and don't know any of the rules. All you wanted to do was play soccer,is it really your duty to train them. Let's say the 3 of you are in a good mood, feeling charitable, and do happily explain the rules and give these 2 guys a good introduction. You come back next week only to find another 2 guys who also have never played and don't know the rules. You complain on a soccer forum and someone tells you that its your role, your duty to train these new players up, when all you signed up for was a few quick games of soccer.

One thing I blame is how fast everyone levels these days. New players fly up to cp160 like it's nothing and having levelled so fast, they miss out on fundamental fights that give you the skills for vet+.

At the very least though people could watch a video on the run so they at least have an idea about what to do. Rather than force another player to explain it to them.

Also speak up at the start of the run. Nothing more painful than wiping on the first boss then half the group says they haven't done it before. I'm happy to explain just tell me you need me to.

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

Majeure wrote: »

Create your own group, invite only people who you think have some clue of what they're doing. Problem solved.

Exactly, absolutely no need to lock content behind a skill wall.

Note that this would only apply for solo queuing for dungeons.
Nobody would want to stop groups to go in with any types of members.

And it would not be much of an skill wall, more an understanding of dungeon mechanics and roles, while teaching basic rotation. For veteran dungeons I would have an advanced course, who would have skill checks but again its more about survival.

Its far easier to help someone who has an basic understanding of rotation and boss mechanic but doing it wrong than somebody totally clueless.

And yes I would add an dungeon achievement level on top of this. You have never done an dungeon before, you get one of the 1 dungeons. then continue to 2 and the dlc ones. This repeats for veteran.
Dumping an level 20 into WGT is not nice for anybody.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

nope

i don't have time to babysit every player i'm grouped with

it's why i'm glad my mate and i can duo speedrun most dungeons; can just abandon the bads who don't communicate or care to learn by themselves in a sea of adds

its funny. I'm a dirty, dirty casual. I mostly solo, except for when i occasionally run with my guild. I would absolutely LOVE some sort of testing ground where I could safely practice playing in a group scenario, without wasting other people's time. and no, this doesn't imply speed run. it implies BEING ABLE TO FINISH CONTENT AT ALL. because yes, when you come into whatever content, its probably with an intent to finish it. I mean you could say VMA is that. but its also a DLC, and it doesn't teach you to heal or tank, only how to damage people without dying.

as far as proving grounds in WoW? they DID work for a time. it. was. glorious. harder mode dungeons were literally easier to complete then normal mode for the sole reason that people who were able to queue for them, at least had basic understanding of their class and role. but then ..with raid finder giving gear better then what you could get in dungeons, and other means of being given an opportunity to simply brute force your way through a proving ground, they stopped working as intended. well that and the fact that raid finder gave better gear while requiring very little playing ability just meant that people didn't queue for dungeons anymore, but as far as training you for your general role and weeding out people who will drag you down, while blaming YOU for being selfish while doing so? they worked pretty darn great.

I'm not an awesome player. but.. I'm also not so selfish as to expect random strangers to pick up the slack from my less then awesome performance, let alone complaining how selfish THEY are for "gasp" wanting to complete a dungeon in a reasonable time.

Phinix1 wrote: »

Even if they are just "playing the way they want" how could anyone WANT to only use light attacks? With all these abilities and morphs ZOS spent all this time creating and giving fancy particle effects, why would they want to only use one boring light attack with no visual effects?

Has the thought ever crossed your mind that people may dislike the fancy and flashy effects and prefer a simple light/heavy attack system (like in real TES games) over some fancy skills? For example, I virtually never use class skills for that very reason, only weapon skills (if they don't look too flashy) or light/heavy attacks.
Granted, I don't do group content... but if I would, I wouldn't be changing my "build" to suit other players because I enjoy playing that way.

Also, PUGs (especially those with groupfinder) are never really great... that has been true in every MMORPG that has a groupfinder. If you want to avoid that issue, run with friends/guildies and avoid groupfinder.

I've been playing since beta and ESO is my first MMO. I've been through a lot of PUG (Pick-up Game) dungeon groups and this is my process:

First I check my guilds to see if anyone wants to run the dungeon. I try to build/join groups out of guilds because I know people in my trials guilds know their roles. (understanding your class & role > understanding mechanics)

If no one in guild is available I check zone chat for high CP players LFG. I look for high CP players because high CP players should know what they're doing. Should.

If chat isn't responsive for whatever reason I que for the dungeon. If it's a DLC dungeon I only que for normal. PUG groups just don't make it through the DLC vet dungeons in a reasonable amount of time (an hour or less is reasonable for me for PUG groups). If it's non-DLC I might que for vet, but only if I believe I can carry the group if people derp out.

When I join the group I say "hi" in group chat. This is important because if the group isn't communicating, you can expect to disband at the first sign of trouble.

Then I wait before each mob for the group to get there, because someone might be doing the quest or changing skills or gear or eating or screaming at their kid or whatever. It's a PUG group so I don't expect them to sprint through mobs.

If we encounter problems I talk to my group members and try to help whoever is struggling. After about 5 wipes (maybe more if they're nice) and no improvement I tell them I'm sorry, but I have to go. After that many group deaths we're likely dealing with an issue that won't be fixed that run, like a bad rotation, not understanding a role or the mechanics themselves.

But most of the time if everyone communicates and is nice to each other we make it through ok. Sometimes it's bad... sometimes it's surprisingly good. More often it's bad. But communication and civility helps.


The problem has three solutions, each of which will make queueing for dungeons better for everyone:

1. Players who are inexperienced should do a little homework on their build, role and the dungeon before they que up for vet anything. You don't need to be an expert or have the meta build. Just have a good idea of what you're going to do and how effective it is for the content you're about to tackle. Check out Deltia' site or just google what you want to learn if you don't know where to start (this is what I had to do to get through vet content). Definitely know what you're doing before trying the DLC dungeons or Trials - they are harder than the other vets.

2. Experienced players should be considerate of less-experienced players in dungeons. Don't use all caps. "HEAL HEALER!", "TAUNT TANK!", "DO DAMAGE DPS!" are examples of vague and condescending things you should avoid spamming in group chat (YOU might actually get kicked for this). Don't sprint through the mobs unless you know the people and they don't mind. Wait for the group. If they're screwing around too much tell them you don't have time to waste and leave the group. Say something before you leave the group (unless they're jerks). Try not to be that guy that just quits. We don't like that guy. Help out if you can. Be nice. And before you point the finger at someone else, check yourself to make sure you're actually doing what you're supposed to be. Don't get cocky.

3. Getting to the OP's idea, yes ZOS can and should absolutely create a system that teaches players their roles before attempting dungeons. I also agree that some system should be in place to ensure they're ready for vet content before queuing for that. It used to be vet ranks and CP, but these days when any dummy can grind sky reach with ambrosia and a high level carry, CP just isn't an indicator of skill. We need something else there... maybe not proving grounds or something you can just cheese your way through... but something that indicates who knows how to tank, heal and dps and at what level of proficiency... something they can't just toggle on because they're tired of waiting on a group. That would not only help PUG dungeon groups, but also Trial and Vet Trial guilds. Training dummies are nice, but we need something more to certify people for these roles, without turning game-time into work-time for guild officers and mentors. It's certainly worth getting bumped up on ZOS' to-do list.


No one should be afraid to do dungeons in ESO. Anyone can do normal dungeons. Anyone can do vet content too, but you may have to work for it. Don't let that stop you.