Stamina DPS in PVE fixed for morrowind?

Artis · April 2017

Lol that video. How? Why:? Just a usual rotation, actually looked even slower and there was a part where he didn't even reapply the back bar dots - yet, the damage is insane.

Anywho, you all should understand that PvE shouldn't be balanced around groups aiming for the highest score. It should be balanced so that the majority of players (who aren't competing for the top score) feels that they aren't weaker than other players with the same precision of rotation execution.

The high score groups and should (and do) simply use whatever works best, whether it's magicka or stamina or hybrid or whatever. Ideally that should be balanced or at least withing a few percent from each other, but the main goal is to balance it for everyone. And if the skill cap is different and you balance around that, then some classes might perform really bad at the level where the majority of players are.

Stamden · April 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Pet sorc on the other hand is pretty fine, it has downside over the non pet sorc, perhaps an small nerf to daeric prey.
Else we are back to the setting where the only use for pet was to solo stuff.

I do understand that the topic is about stam, so this is technically offtop, but I can't keep silent...

PetSorcs are not fine. Nowhere near. And I main MagSorc.

Necropotence + Volatile Familiar + Daedric Pray = easy +8k DPS over "standard" MagSorc. PerSorc outperforms everything. Everything. They overdid it so much it isn't funny.

The only downside of the PerSorc is the need to heavily multitask. But. But! It only shows in super end-game content. [totally offtopic rant]Gosh, I'm so tired of idiots who don't look after their scamps and then say "Olololo, 5k+ DPS more then you, go but Necropotence"... Well, yes, my DPS is lower, but I'm also not a nuisance for a tank, you ***[/rant]

If you don't do vet trials for leaderboard you can simply change to pet and basically ignore everything. No repercussions.

It's not fine.

Agreed. Mag Sorcs outclass everyone by a significant margin. With Pet builds that gap just get's even worse. It can be like a 15k+ DPS difference between a Pet Sorc build and a stamina build.

DivyathFyr · April 2017

imnotanother wrote: »

Good post.

I mainly play a Stamina Nightblade. Once upon a time, he was a trial beast...now he hits like a wet noodle.

I main nb what do you main now tho im curious? And why u give up?

DivyathFyr · April 2017

Will stam be fixed u guys think? Or at least viable in pve?

Alcast · April 2017

@Shadzilla

Hey, ye this parse is like 2-3 months old. I think you should be able to get about the same dps now as Stam DKs got a nerf but also got a small buff with more CPs.

Also, I was definitely not the reason why Stamina setups got nerfed, the reason why they get nerfed is because of PVP. 90% of the changes to skills are because of PvP.

Zenimax does NOT have a clue on how Stamina actually works (pros & cons of it) and I do not think that they have any plan how to fix it either. Nor do they care as 90% of people play Magicka anyway.

Morrowind will be the last straw for me, if stamina does NOT get fixed with Morrowind, it will be dead forever in COMPETITIVE PvE Trials. Obviously I will not give up without a fight on the PTS forums.

Note: Stamina works in all types of content, however if you want to get leaderboard runs with a good score Magicka is simply better as it provides more AoE damage, shields that bolster your health and about the same Single Target dps because Zenimax failed to adjust and listen to PvEs in the past.

Nelson_Rebel · April 2017

Agreed

I've mained a Mag DK since launch but even when stam was king, mag was still preferred in trials like vAA.

The issue is that stam is incredibly powerful in PvP. Every time they buff stam for PvE it completely irrefutably dominates PvP and any magic character is slaughtered like lambs.

They do need to give stam a better survival ability without overpowering everything when combined with Shuffle. And AoE damage does need to be reworked.

I'm hesitant about buffing single target damage with just straight up damage. Perhaps a better bleed over time effect for PvE ONLY would work

OutLaw_Nynx · April 2017

I don't understand why people are okay with magicka characters having shields but it's the end of the world when zos tried to make it one for stam. Don't forget that. People flipped out and they changed it back to scaling to your health

LorDrek · April 2017

Stamina need rework 2h weapons, more viable schields, upgrade medium passives, more stamina skills, better bow skills.

Nelson_Rebel · April 2017

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I don't understand why people are okay with magicka characters having shields but it's the end of the world when zos tried to make it one for stam. Don't forget that. People flipped out and they changed it back to scaling to your health

Because of shuffle.

Combine a stamina Shield with stamina shuffle and you create an un-hittable unkillable killing machine with stamina's high ass burst

Give magic a Magic version of shuffle and we are square

Izaki · April 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

I haven't tried stamblade yet actually. How is the aoe skill they have? The one giving major brutality, the magicka morph heals, don't remember name.

Power Extraction is the one. Its absolute s*** of the s***est s*** ever. Like really. Its terrible. Steel Tornado is way better. The only thing Power Extraction has going for it is the ult gain due to the last passive. But other than that it does slightly more damage than Steel Tornado pre-execute, but then, when target drops into execute, its not even comparable.

Izaki · April 2017

Hey @Shadzilla at least we know that they are looking at Merciless Resolve and Relentless Focus, which in my opinion are the real reason NBs can't get any decent buffs (self buffing Minor Berserk...). So they will take a look at the clunky mechanic. I'm sure that if the skill is reworked, NBs will get a decent boost in damage straight away, just from that change. Then there's the AoE issue but that applies to all classes.

Rokushoh · April 2017

Unfortunately you are right, but also wrong. Stamina Single Target is huge if played right. You don't have to play Magicka. People do it because it's simply easier and more viable, and safer for score runs. We have a Stamina Nightblade in the team and he pulls just as much and dies less compared to whoever has shields simply because he knows how to play the class, and knows the mechanics. It's all about knowing your game. Also the fact they have more Stamina is good, a lot of dodge rolls and block casts Magicka users cannot have (Shehai Storm, sprinting, breaking out of stuns, bombs on Rakkhat, etc)

Sabbathius · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

...at least we know that they are looking at Merciless Resolve and Relentless Focus

Did they say this somewhere recently? I haven't heard a peep, but sounds very exciting. Grim Focus is one of my biggest pet peeves, it's so clunky!

Izaki · April 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

...at least we know that they are looking at Merciless Resolve and Relentless Focus

Did they say this somewhere recently? I haven't heard a peep, but sounds very exciting. Grim Focus is one of my biggest pet peeves, it's so clunky!

They said it back during Homestead PTS. A lot of people were surprised that ZOS found that Velocious Curse was too clunky and hard to use in rotations, and that Grim Focus was perfectly fine. I still don't understand how they didn't look into this skill. I'm also still baffled by the fact that both morphs of Path of Darkness still don't scale with Thaumaturge (after like a year or something). So they did say they were going to look into it.

Balamoor · April 2017

Mordors wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

I haven't tried stamblade yet actually. How is the aoe skill they have? The one giving major brutality, the magicka morph heals, don't remember name.

the aoe skill that worth something is volley and steel tornado the rest is garbage(maybe flawless DB but thats nerfed too) tbh the problem is if you dont have VMA sharp bow volley is garbage too so balance is on the ground...

there is noting that gives major brutality only soul harvest gives u %20 dmg done for 6 or 8 seconds i dont remember.

for me Stamblade is the one that is not worth playin at least in stam Sorc you will still have surge and stuff but NB you got noting(we got Siphoning Attacks YEY!!!!)

Yep agree on this Stamblades are the most frustrating of all even in low levels everything drains you and your left standing there to be a punching bag.

Shadzilla · April 2017

Alcast wrote: »

@Shadzilla

Hey, ye this parse is like 2-3 months old. I think you should be able to get about the same dps now as Stam DKs got a nerf but also got a small buff with more CPs.

Also, I was definitely not the reason why Stamina setups got nerfed, the reason why they get nerfed is because of PVP. 90% of the changes to skills are because of PvP.

Zenimax does NOT have a clue on how Stamina actually works (pros & cons of it) and I do not think that they have any plan how to fix it either. Nor do they care as 90% of people play Magicka anyway.

Morrowind will be the last straw for me, if stamina does NOT get fixed with Morrowind, it will be dead forever in COMPETITIVE PvE Trials. Obviously I will not give up without a fight on the PTS forums.

Note: Stamina works in all types of content, however if you want to get leaderboard runs with a good score Magicka is simply better as it provides more AoE damage, shields that bolster your health and about the same Single Target dps because Zenimax failed to adjust and listen to PvEs in the past.

A few top tier pve guys that I am pretty good friends with, speak with @ZOS_RichLambert every so often. They asked him why stamina toons were nerfed even further for homestead, when they were already more or less extinct from competitive trials after 1 tamriel. He specifically said he saw this parse (54k single), and said they wanted to "bring stam single target down to magickas level". My buddies replied with "You shouldn't nerf every stamina dps toon in the game, due to 1 parse. Regardless of how good the player is." Which I completely agree with. I don't have wiretap or screenshot evidence of these conversations, but that was the reasoning I was told from a few pretty trustworthy people. In all honesty it does not make any sense at all to me. Single target damage is no where near as important as AOE, which stamina have none of. Yet they really aimed at trying to even out single target damage between mag and stam, and failed miserably (55k+ mag sorcs ftw, ranged with shields).

In my honest opinion I think getting a bunch of top tier players that actually play this game over to Maryland for a week of testing was the best thing they have ever done. I have a feeling that 95% of the testing was regarding battlegrounds and the warden, with absolutely no interest in the way competitive pve has been. I know everyone let ZOS know how stamina have absolutely no place in PVE, which is pretty rough to say the least. I hope they listen to you guys and make some much needed changes. I also do not see why stamina have no AOE dps, if they are worried about pvp. I mean they have never had anything even remotely close to prox det vicious death destro ult. Zerg bombing is another magicka only thing in this game.

Regarding trying to have stamina toons viable for pve, I think I have another suggestion... Possibly make certain mobs with very large spell resistances? Along with other mobs with very large physical resistances? Having all mobs at 18.2k resistances is just lazy. That way if there are massive differences in damage due to horrible balancing attempts, there would still be a reason to have some stamina around. I mean honestly stamina have only been in competitive trials for 2 patches out of the last 3 years. There should be certain things that magicka do really well at, along with certain things stamina excel at. This would give much more complexity and strategy for top tier leaderboard scores, in my opinion.

usmcjdking · April 2017

ZOS has a gargantuan amount of work to do to bring sanity back to PVE balance.

#1 is to identify a role for Stamina characters in end game PVE content. Each of the magicka Damage Dealer counterparts are unique in their own way and offer something useful to a raid whilst stamina doesn't really offer anything. This is not a difficult thing to implement. EQ raids has literally every class present because they all had something meaningful to offer to the group. How an MMO that predates our current endgame issues by almost 20 years managed to solve an issue before it even became a problem is not so much of a testament to ZOS's inability to target to issue, but how the base game was developed.

The base mechanics of the game do not, and have never supported the melee warrior type gameplay. I don't personally care what direction ZOS prefers to go. Having equal DPS is a cheap cop out to actual balance that demands that I use the skills and abilities that I have as stam that magicka does not to ensure success for the team.

#2 is a complete restructure of all trials to ensure this new vision of stamina DPS is functional, viable and ultimately competetive amongst other stamina.

#3 is buff magblade.

Majic · April 2017

Solution: Nerf Magicka.

LorDrek · April 2017

Majic wrote: »

Solution: Nerf Magicka.

No nerf, pls balance with logic. 2h complet rework, same as medium armor, bow, stamina class skills.

KramUzibra · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I totally agree with you. Stamina is weaker - and it simply make no seance. If you have for example a NB that has no dmg shield and you are forced to 1 - 2 shot you target in order to survive / heal - then what is the point of this class if mag build (especially mag sorcerers) do more dmg from a distance (and with a dmg shield) ?! This is not only PvE issue. The real problems start in PvP. Stamina builds used to be good - and this is probably the reason why they are not anymore - in PvP people complained about it, so it was nerfed.

PvP in ungodly unbalanced - we know that. 90% of cyrodiil PvP pollution are mag sorcerers for a reason (btw. what kind of class balance it is ?! ). Stamina in pvp is always weaker (even if you go for NB/race combo).

Now...lets take a look at mobas games (basically it is cyro PvP but with a much smaller scale - instead of 50 vs 50 you have 5 vs 5 with a preset of balanced skills for certain character). What is the biggest difference aside from that ?

Only stamina can crit. Magicka is mostly AOE with higher dmg, but with 0% crit chance. Only stamina (most often single - target) can crit. This is the reason why mobas are "better" balanced.

If I have a single target skill that deals the same dmg as an AOE dmg (yes everybody in certain area is getting hit for the same dmg as if 10 different people attacked them separately). What is the point of high singe target dmg when you have AOE that deal more dmg I ask ? It just make no seance...

You're crazy if you consider magicka sorc is the best class in PvP. The best ones are still Stam DK, Sorc and Templar for most stuff. Mag Sorc is way harder to play and you'll never get kills as easily. There's a reason why 90% of the sorcs you see are complete trash.

Your kidding right!? Huge single target dps from range with sheilds...let's not talk about kiting mines and darkdeal...yeah mag sorc is vastly out performing stam..especially med armor builds.

KramUzibra · April 2017

Edziu wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The problem is, medium armor passives are really weak. Until those get looked at Stamina will always be pretty mediocre.

if you can look in pve dps its not much matter difference between light and medium armor for dps, skills are big difference and in pvp with armor is similiar, medium and light armor are similiar weak in compare ot heavy

Your forgetting light armor has sheilds, that puts them on par with heavy defensively... medium armor used to have evasiveness. it started with the increase to roll dodge cost then the change with dodge chance and all the undodgable abilities now! Medium armor user are being forced to take more and more damage and it's killing medium armor...at least in pvp.

Shadzilla · April 2017

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Agreed

I've mained a Mag DK since launch but even when stam was king, mag was still preferred in trials like vAA.

The issue is that stam is incredibly powerful in PvP. Every time they buff stam for PvE it completely irrefutably dominates PvP and any magic character is slaughtered like lambs.

They do need to give stam a better survival ability without overpowering everything when combined with Shuffle. And AoE damage does need to be reworked.

I'm hesitant about buffing single target damage with just straight up damage. Perhaps a better bleed over time effect for PvE ONLY would work

The only issue for PVP is shields. I'm not a coder or developer, but I would think making a morph of bone shield that is viable in PVE but gets significantly nerfed with battle spirit should be plausible... AOE for stamina needs some massive help. AOE for stamina needs jesus, on roids, to come help. I would love to see the morph of rend that literally no one uses, thrive in chaos, changed to something along the lines of destro ults aoe damage. Blade cloak is incredibly tiny damage as well, every 3 second tick. Single target is not far behind magicka. I would assume a small buff to either trap, rending slashes, or injection would probably put it more in line.

Edziu · April 2017

KramUzibra wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The problem is, medium armor passives are really weak. Until those get looked at Stamina will always be pretty mediocre.

if you can look in pve dps its not much matter difference between light and medium armor for dps, skills are big difference and in pvp with armor is similiar, medium and light armor are similiar weak in compare ot heavy

Your forgetting light armor has sheilds, that puts them on par with heavy defensively... medium armor used to have evasiveness. it started with the increase to roll dodge cost then the change with dodge chance and all the undodgable abilities now! Medium armor user are being forced to take more and more damage and it's killing medium armor...at least in pvp.

so as I wrote, this difference is in skills, light armor damage shield against medium shuffle? which is used only by tank in pve or in pvp mainly by heavy armor wearesrs lol logic, medium armor skill used by heavy armor
when lgiht armor shield is enough in pve to make much better survivability for mag dps comparing into sqyuisy stam player forced to play only on melee

Edziu · April 2017

LorDrek wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

Solution: Nerf Magicka.

No nerf, pls balance with logic. 2h complet rework, same as medium armor, bow, stamina class skills.

yes, bow need buf, 2h rework etc but it cant be without nerfing this what is now op becaus eof more power creep then and then againg huge overall nerfs which wont affect hardcore endgame players to much, more average and casual player because of power creep from those engame pro player who this game good enough to not have problem to adapt to nerf and still making power creep while normal player will feel big pain after try to nerf power creep if ZOS will only buff weak things without a bit nerfing OP things

Shadzilla · April 2017

KramUzibra wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I totally agree with you. Stamina is weaker - and it simply make no seance. If you have for example a NB that has no dmg shield and you are forced to 1 - 2 shot you target in order to survive / heal - then what is the point of this class if mag build (especially mag sorcerers) do more dmg from a distance (and with a dmg shield) ?! This is not only PvE issue. The real problems start in PvP. Stamina builds used to be good - and this is probably the reason why they are not anymore - in PvP people complained about it, so it was nerfed.

PvP in ungodly unbalanced - we know that. 90% of cyrodiil PvP pollution are mag sorcerers for a reason (btw. what kind of class balance it is ?! ). Stamina in pvp is always weaker (even if you go for NB/race combo).

Now...lets take a look at mobas games (basically it is cyro PvP but with a much smaller scale - instead of 50 vs 50 you have 5 vs 5 with a preset of balanced skills for certain character). What is the biggest difference aside from that ?

Only stamina can crit. Magicka is mostly AOE with higher dmg, but with 0% crit chance. Only stamina (most often single - target) can crit. This is the reason why mobas are "better" balanced.

If I have a single target skill that deals the same dmg as an AOE dmg (yes everybody in certain area is getting hit for the same dmg as if 10 different people attacked them separately). What is the point of high singe target dmg when you have AOE that deal more dmg I ask ? It just make no seance...

You're crazy if you consider magicka sorc is the best class in PvP. The best ones are still Stam DK, Sorc and Templar for most stuff. Mag Sorc is way harder to play and you'll never get kills as easily. There's a reason why 90% of the sorcs you see are complete trash.

Your kidding right!? Huge single target dps from range with sheilds...let's not talk about kiting mines and darkdeal...yeah mag sorc is vastly out performing stam..especially med armor builds.

Out of all the patch notes, easily the most hilarious thing is how mag sorc was not touched at all. 55-60k single target damage, ranged with shields, and the cleave/aoe damage... I won't even start on, downright brutal. Apparently the solution regarding stamina being extinct from PVE was to buff caltrops. Great, single target damage will go up by 2-3k, and I'm sure it will double stams current AOE/cleave damage (sarcasm).

Shadzilla · April 2017

That face you make when you dps a trial and your main is a mag sorc...

Shadzilla · May 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert Do not mean to be rude, but please be aware that magicka toons pull much more single target damage than stamina toons. Even at ranged, not having to play melee. More importantly stamina toons do like 70% of the aoe damage magicka do, which is downright ridiculous. I do not think a 5% buff to blade cloak's mitigation is going to do a massive increase in damage... Blade cloak is also still miles away from a 15-20k fake health button. Therefore they will still be extinct from endgame PVE.

The_Lex · May 2017

Fix boneshield!

Dragonnord · May 2017

ZOS doesn't have a clue about what they're doing, touching this and that constantly, changing this and that constantly, breaking this and that constantly. When something is right (no need of change) and you still change it and break it, then there is something definitely wrong.

Vaoh · May 2017

Stam DPS will be accepted again, yes.