Warden compared to other classes: Lack of damage-dealing skills

Vaoh · April 2017

Since we first learned of the Wardens, I have seen a bit of concern develop both on the Forums as well as in-game regarding a specific issue. Though the class looks amazing (and I personally love Wardens already), I've felt it necessary to finally create a thread where it is easy for those unaware to see what this problem is for themselves.

To put it plainly, Wardens have significantly less damage-dealing skills than any other class.

Here's how it currently adds up (Ults are obviously excluded):

Dragonknight (10 damage-dealing skills, 12 with weak damage morphs)
• Lava Whip
• Searing Strike
• Fiery Breath
• Fiery Grip
• Inferno
• Dark Talons
• Inhale
• Stonefist
• Ash Cloud
• Spiked Armor
• Fragmented Shield (morph of Obsidian Shield)
• Shattering Rocks (morph of Petrify)

Sorcerer (8 damage-dealing skills, 11 with weak damage morphs+Implosion)
• Crystal Shard
• Daedric Mines
• Summon Familiar
• Daedric Curse
• Summon Winged Twilight
• Mage's Fury
• Lightning Form
• Lighting Splash
• Shattering Prison (morph of Encase)
• Streak (morph of Bolt Escape)
• Implosion (passive damage-dealing skill)

Nightblade (10 damage-dealing skills)
• Assassin's Blade
• Teleport Strike
• Grim Focus
• Veiled Strike
• Path of Darkness
• Summon Shade
• Strife
• Agony
• Cripple
• Drain Power

Templar (9 damage-dealing skills, 12 with strong damage morphs+Burning Light)
• Puncturing Strikes
• Piercing Javelin
• Focused Charge
• Spear Shards
• Sun Fire
• Solar Flare
• Backlash
• Eclipse
• Radiant Destruction
• Blazing Shield (morph of Sun Shield)
• Ritual of Retribution (morph of Cleansing Ritual)
• Burning Light (passive damage-dealing skill)

Warden (4 damage-dealing skills, 5 with weak damage morphs)
• Dive
• Scorch
• Swarm
• Impaling Shards
• Arctic Blast (morph of Arctic Wind)

It's not over yet.... Wardens have either half or less than half of the damage-dealing skills of the other classes based on which one you compare them to. It is notable that Impaling Shards and Arctic Blast are also based on Max Health.

In other words, Magicka Wardens will all look exactly the same when dealing damage, as no unique build can exist when only 3 damage-dealing class active skills are available on builds - PvE or PVP. Other classes have a wide array of skills and morphs they can choose from, whereas the Warden has only 3 legitimate damage-dealing skills they must slot. Both Dive and Scorch contain Stamina morphs, further cutting into the diversity of Magicka builds.

Anyway..... here's hoping that the Warden will see some changes to 1-2 morphs around the Warden class in order to increase our damage-dealing options. Imo, Arctic Blast should at the very least remove its heal to become a powerful stationary AoE DoT based on Max Magicka like a DK's Eruption is.

That is all

pjwb16_ESO · April 2017

Doesnt matter warden fotm

Vaoh · April 2017

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

Doesnt matter warden fotm

A new class will always be fotm! Should die down after the first month though with the exception of Wardens becoming popular Offtanks/Offhealers, useful PvP Support builds, and great PvP Stamina builds.

BigBragg · April 2017

Yeah I see no cp pvp stam builds doing well. Some great passives and a few good tools to build around weapons of choice.

Artis · April 2017

The number of skills doesn't matter. Each class uses around 3 of their damage skills. All other builds are just bad.

And if you want unique builds - why do you only call them unique if they deal damage in different ways? Imo, wardens can be as unique combining their different utilities.

The strengths of wardens is utilities and buffs - and they have a great spot in the game, in my opinion.

p.s. One could create the same thread about lack of utility skills and show that warden has way more than other classes.

Vaoh · April 2017

Artis wrote: »

The number of skills doesn't matter. Each class uses around 3 of their damage skills. All other builds are just bad.

And if you want unique builds - why do you only call them unique if they deal damage in different ways? Imo, wardens can be as unique combining their different utilities.

The strengths of wardens is utilities and buffs - and they have a great spot in the game, in my opinion.

p.s. One could create the same thread about lack of utility skills and show that warden has way more than other classes.

So basically we should all run the exact same builds regardless of content? c'mon now... -_- if I played a Nightblade I could go about fighting my opponents in many different ways with many different skill combinations. Lots of ways to build every class, especially in PvP. Wardens are the exception because you do not have the class skills to slot which will provide unique damage combos.

What Wardens do have (which you hinted at) that others do not is an excess of healing skills. All 5 of the skills Green Balance are healing skills as well as 1 Winter's Embrace skill. However, it is becoming quite clear that Templars will still be the "better" healer due to the sheer effectiveness and utility of BoL, Shards, etc.

Artis · April 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

So basically we should all run the exact same builds regardless of content? c'mon now... -_- if I played a Nightblade I could go about fighting my opponents in many different ways with many different skill combinations. Lots of ways to build every class, especially in PvP. Wardens are the exception because you do not have the class skills to slot which will provide unique damage combos.

What Wardens do have (which you hinted at) that others do not is an excess of healing skills. All 5 of the skills Green Balance are healing skills as well as 1 Winter's Embrace skill. However, it is becoming quite clear that Templars will still be the "better" healer due to the sheer effectiveness and utility of BoL, Shards, etc.

That's not true. And all those many skills that NB have? You only use a couple of dots in PvE. You can use a few in pvp, but again - only a couple is used to deal damage, you will use buffs/debuffs/heals and that will take a lot of space. Sure, you CAN just slot a ton of damaging skills, but then the build will be weak.

And again - Wardens can use many skills in PvP. They have so many buffs and debuffs. Take aoe major fracture+breech+ defile for example. Different combos will be better for different types of content, clearly.

timidobserver · April 2017

That is the point. I suspect that one goal of this class is to bolster the amount of healers and tanks in the group finder.

STEVIL · April 2017

Using two hands and feet, i count the same number of active skills for the warden as other clases have.

So, this thread could be retitled to be complaining about the over-powrrful warden due to its wider variety of buffs and heals and...

See, not being the same as the others is an opportunity, not a curse.

Anyone can look at the warden thru lenses of what it does for you the way your others characters operste now or what it lacks and many will, but the ones who look at it fir what you can do with what it has and what ir brings the other dont will be much happier.

Besides, the weapon skill lines have a much higher damage spelll count vs non-damage spell count so... not a bad c9ncept to have fewer damage spells in class.

Viewing having three class skills that do dsmage as leading to all the same builds is myopic or tunnel-sighted at best. Which of those other dozen or so skills you slot and how you use them can make loads of difference - if one looks a bit further.

Vosital · April 2017

If the damage abilities are good, then fine, having only 4 or 5 will be ok. The problem is that there needs to be more stamina morphs and stronger stamina morphs.

Peekachu99 · April 2017

Homogenization across the classes, equalization in output and exact buffs is always a recipe for failure. We have 4 classes with varying amounts of dps/ executes/ DoTs/ buffs. I think that's excellent--rarely seen in a game, really--and I'm getting tired of people arguing for homogenization without realizing the clear downsides to that methodology.

How many times are you going to rekskin this thread before realizing most people (including the developers) just don't agree with you?

P.S. You're also ignoring the fantastic utility Wardens bring to weapon skills--especially destro and bow.

ADarklore · April 2017

Considering this class was designed with 'group intent', it makes me wonder how many solo players will be running Warden. Sure, they provide great utility, but for a solo player they need DPS as well as self-buffs. So a class full of buffs just doesn't seem like it will be a good class for a solo player.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

I would love for arctic wind to be a damage skill, but it should still scale on Max healtg. Frost dps isn't a thing anymore (not that it ever really was to begin with), frost is all for tanking now, and it should stay that way.

Imo, arctic wind should be a ground placed aoe similar in size to ash cloud, dealing damage every second based on your max health for 10 seconds. I'd say start at 3% of your max health, on an average tank with 30k healtg that'd be 900 damage per second. One morph should also heal you for 3% of your max health per second (30% heal over 10 seconds), while the other morph should increase it to a 20 second duration and bump up the damage to 5% of max health per second. That'd be right around 1500 damage per second on am average tank, or up to about 3k per second on a 60k hp tank. The ability would remain mostly useless for magicka or stamina dps builds though, And I'm fine with that, tanks need some love.

Kendaric · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Considering this class was designed with 'group intent', it makes me wonder how many solo players will be running Warden. Sure, they provide great utility, but for a solo player they need DPS as well as self-buffs. So a class full of buffs just doesn't seem like it will be a good class for a solo player.

Depends on the solo player... I fully intend to play a Warden (or two) and I always play solo. My damage skills are mostly from weapon skills lines anyway, so I don't really see an issue.
Will I be overly powerful? No, but for me, at least, it will suffice.

Shad0wfire99 · April 2017

I was underwhelmed more by the passives than the skills themselves.

Izaki · April 2017

Yeah all the people saying that no one uses the entirety of damage skills available to each class is just flat out wrong. PvP and PvE builds are all very different and most of the time the class abilities used aren't the same at all.

IxSTALKERxI · April 2017

I don't see this as much of a problem, I mean you only have 10 slots and a lot of which need to be taken up by buffs. There are plenty of weapon line skills that can be mixed in if needed, but 3 class dps abilities is a pretty good.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · April 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

Doesnt matter warden fotm

A new class will always be fotm! Should die down after the first month though with the exception of Wardens becoming popular Offtanks/Offhealers, useful PvP Support builds, and great PvP Stamina builds.

Based om the skill sets from the article I won't even be making a warden.

Last time I was this underwhelmed by a MMORPG expac it was when LOTRO introduced the so called Epic Battles - which in fact were no better than a badly done, 3rd rate, browser based, resource management game.

All The Best

SanTii.92 · April 2017

@artis Zos doesn't pigeonhole classes into one role, they want every of them to be at least somewhat viable. If you think classes only build with a 'couple of dots', go ahead and try to set up mag warden's dps bars. Doesn't look very good at all.

I most certainly share @Vaoh's concerns, unless we see some amazingly strong scalings on those 3 skills, which doesn't look like, the warden will always be just a support.

Artis · April 2017

@SanTii.92 way ahead of ya.

Read the end of this comment. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3902098/#Comment_3902098

It looks okay. Not worse than a NB at least. It was written before the skills were officially announced. So now I'd add Scorch instead of one of the flex slots.

SanTii.92 · April 2017

Artis wrote: »

@SanTii.92 way ahead of ya.

Read the end of this comment. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3902098/#Comment_3902098

It looks okay. Not worse than a NB at least. It was written before the skills were officially announced. So now I'd add Scorch instead of one of the flex slots.

Swarm, scorch, blockade and then either spamable dive or force pulse. That's it. 4 legitimate offensive spells. Now we still got 6 slots to fill, inner light x2, ok. Ward? Sure. Trap, fine, at the cost of dive's morph extra damage but whatever. Now you got to either fill those 2 final slots with support skills, or severly underperforming skills like flame touch, scalding rune or impaling shards.

Ya, doesn't look good at all, doesn't even have an aoe spamable, and probably won't be able to even compete with nbs.

I feel like zos has finally decided to enforce the idea that some classes should only be played at certaon roles, which is my opinion an unfortunate one.

Integral1900 · April 2017

Weapon skills and fighters guild for this one I think, the bear is nice though, beyond that I'm not really fussed...

Vaoh · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@SanTii.92 way ahead of ya.

Read the end of this comment. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3902098/#Comment_3902098

It looks okay. Not worse than a NB at least. It was written before the skills were officially announced. So now I'd add Scorch instead of one of the flex slots.

Swarm, scorch, blockade and then either spamable dive or force pulse. That's it. 4 legitimate offensive spells. Now we still got 6 slots to fill, inner light x2, ok. Ward? Sure. Trap, fine, at the cost of dive's morph extra damage but whatever. Now you got to either fill those 2 final slots with support skills, or severly underperforming skills like flame touch, scalding rune or impaling shards.

Ya, doesn't look good at all, doesn't even have an aoe spamable, and probably won't be able to even compete with nbs.

I feel like zos has finally decided to enforce the idea that some classes should only be played at certaon roles, which is my opinion an unfortunate one.

Exactly.

As a damage-dealer aka main role in ESO, you end up with with 3 flex spots and that's after having double barred Inner Light. It's fine to have 1 or even two flex spots, but they're usually filled with fitting, powerful skills.

The Warden has only 2 other remotely useful damage skills to use - Rearming Trap (good) and Impaling Shards. Both will reauire you to fight in melee range, which is normally a bad idea as a *ranged* Magicka DPS. You also lose 15% Damage on you Dive skill as well.

Even if you slot all of the decent (and even slightly mediocre) damage-dealing skills available, you're left with a flex spot. This must be filled with Blue Betty just for sustain/lulz. No other class even comes close to running out of worthy damage skills to slot.

I'll main the Warden as a Magicka DPS forever once it launches. I'm just hoping it isn't as terrible as it sounds right now in this regard. Mag NB looks really strong right now

Vaoh · April 2017

Integral1900 wrote: »

Weapon skills and fighters guild for this one I think, the bear is nice though, beyond that I'm not really fussed...

@Integral1900
I agree. Definitely works out for Stamina characters. They have a rotation in PvE that barely requires the use of class skills.

Magicka DPS is a different story. Their class skills make or break them.

Runschei · April 2017

At least warden has some healing

Anti_Virus · April 2017

You think thats bad? Stam Warden is worse

Artis · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@SanTii.92 way ahead of ya.

Read the end of this comment. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3902098/#Comment_3902098

It looks okay. Not worse than a NB at least. It was written before the skills were officially announced. So now I'd add Scorch instead of one of the flex slots.

Swarm, scorch, blockade and then either spamable dive or force pulse. That's it. 4 legitimate offensive spells. Now we still got 6 slots to fill, inner light x2, ok. Ward? Sure. Trap, fine, at the cost of dive's morph extra damage but whatever. Now you got to either fill those 2 final slots with support skills, or severly underperforming skills like flame touch, scalding rune or impaling shards.

Ya, doesn't look good at all, doesn't even have an aoe spamable, and probably won't be able to even compete with nbs.

I feel like zos has finally decided to enforce the idea that some classes should only be played at certaon roles, which is my opinion an unfortunate one.

Doesn't look good? Look at what NBs do. Same thing. One of the slots will be Harness Magicka or that damage shield from the frost skill line. So you only have 1 flex slot. Well - that's a flex slot. You will slot heals there to give your group 10% max hp buff or those portals (like DKs chains) to gather the adds together. Wardens ALREADY look better than magicka NBs. Same damage potential, but WAY more utility. Also note, that they will get their ulti-gen passive working all the time, whereas NBs waste every other one (because the only siphoning damage is CG used every 8 seconds).

Oh I get it, you just want NB to suck without any questions. BTW we don't know any numbers,. but you understand that if wardens deal as much damage as NB - there's no reason to take a NB. They are already underrepresented.

SanTii.92 · April 2017

Artis wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@SanTii.92 way ahead of ya.

Read the end of this comment. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3902098/#Comment_3902098

It looks okay. Not worse than a NB at least. It was written before the skills were officially announced. So now I'd add Scorch instead of one of the flex slots.

Swarm, scorch, blockade and then either spamable dive or force pulse. That's it. 4 legitimate offensive spells. Now we still got 6 slots to fill, inner light x2, ok. Ward? Sure. Trap, fine, at the cost of dive's morph extra damage but whatever. Now you got to either fill those 2 final slots with support skills, or severly underperforming skills like flame touch, scalding rune or impaling shards.

Ya, doesn't look good at all, doesn't even have an aoe spamable, and probably won't be able to even compete with nbs.

I feel like zos has finally decided to enforce the idea that some classes should only be played at certaon roles, which is my opinion an unfortunate one.

Doesn't look good? Look at what NBs do. Same thing. One of the slots will be Harness Magicka or that damage shield from the frost skill line. So you only have 1 flex slot. Well - that's a flex slot. You will slot heals there to give your group 10% max hp buff or those portals (like DKs chains) to gather the adds together. Wardens ALREADY look better than magicka NBs. Same damage potential, but WAY more utility. Also note, that they will get their ulti-gen passive working all the time, whereas NBs waste every other one (because the only siphoning damage is CG used every 8 seconds).

Oh I get it, you just want NB to suck without any questions. BTW we don't know any numbers,. but you understand that if wardens deal as much damage as NB - there's no reason to take a NB. They are already underrepresented.

I don't understand how you say nbs do the same when, as voah has listed, they have 10 damaging spells, of which at least 5 of them (cripple, path, merciless resolve, impale and sap essenec) are usually used on standard rotations, whereas warden's have 3 viable spells, if lucky, and dive doesn't get outparse by force pulse at close range, would be two (2) spells. Not even mentioning that nbs actually have at least 3 more that might be useful on some scenarios, strife, conceal weapon and shades, and warden doesn't even have that possibilty.

You seem to be missrepresenting warden's value to a team as a support and not by it's dps capabilities. Yes, they have some useful traits, but those are usually asigned to either tanks or healers. No one is gonna bring a warden dps cause of the major toughness (which actually is already provided for horns), or the portals displacements.

Vaoh · April 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

You think thats bad? Stam Warden is worse

In PvP, Stam Warden will be amazing. No worries there.

PvE-wise its Stamina in general that needs buffs across the board. Amongst themselves Stam classes are balanced nicely. The real issue with the Warden right now comes from how few damage-dealing skills they have.

A lot of people are asking for Swarm to have a Stamina morph and I mostly agree. Problem is, Stamina already benefits so much from using lots of Weapon skills, while Magicka relies on Class skills a lot which the Warden has only 3 of for DPS.

Anti_Virus · April 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

You think thats bad? Stam Warden is worse

In PvP, Stam Warden will be amazing. No worries there.

PvE-wise its Stamina in general that needs buffs across the board. Amongst themselves Stam classes are balanced nicely. The real issue with the Warden right now comes from how few damage-dealing skills they have.

A lot of people are asking for Swarm to have a Stamina morph and I mostly agree. Problem is, Stamina already benefits so much from using lots of Weapon skills, while Magicka relies on Class skills a lot which the Warden has only 3 of for DPS.

Well the stam morphs have no additional benefits, At this point just make the class magic based, Screaming Cliff racer deals more damage than cutting dive, and other skills have more utility.

Shoot Zos can you just give me a decent hunter/ranger class?

Vaoh · April 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

You think thats bad? Stam Warden is worse

In PvP, Stam Warden will be amazing. No worries there.

PvE-wise its Stamina in general that needs buffs across the board. Amongst themselves Stam classes are balanced nicely. The real issue with the Warden right now comes from how few damage-dealing skills they have.

A lot of people are asking for Swarm to have a Stamina morph and I mostly agree. Problem is, Stamina already benefits so much from using lots of Weapon skills, while Magicka relies on Class skills a lot which the Warden has only 3 of for DPS.

Well the stam morphs have no additional benefits, At this point just make the class magic based, Screaming Cliff racer deals more damage than cutting dive, and other skills have more utility.

Shoot Zos can you just give me a decent hunter/ranget class?

It'll be good dude. no worries there lol

I definitely agree that it was disappointing to see no additional effects besides the Stam conversion added to the Bear and Cliff Racer skills.