Morrowind's closed beta will inevitably damage the game's competitiveness

SanTii.92 · April 2017

Reading Closed beta announcement article i think we can all safly assume that Zos isn't considering to open Morrowind's beta at all. And while we can only guess the reasons why they are doing it this way, we can reasonably expect that if they don't, at the very least disclose the nda restrictions some time prior to the expansion launch, we will see a massive competitive advantage for those who were invited to the closed beta. In terms of strategies devloped, builds theorycrafted and availabilities, grind spots and how to farm them, general grasp of mechanics and the overall raw experience of it; all that will highly contribute to who will be the first Halls of Fabrication clear, who will dominate the battlegrounds from the get go, who will get richer the most, and who won't.

As someone who's main reason to play is to find enjoyment on fair competitiveness, I honestly found this downright disrespectful. Hope this thread can spark some discussion about this issue, that i feel is getting suspeciously unsopken of.

JimT722 · April 2017

Anything released in Morrowind could be tweaked from beta to release. Also, everything they learn will likely be available on a website within a day of release. It will however reduce the bugs as some will be fixed by release. This isn't being discussed because every mmo I have ever played has done something similar and it really won't be an issue.

Didgerion · April 2017

My problem with it is that there won't be enough players to test it and there will be lots of bugs or some serious ballancing issues that will make it to live.

I wonder how many players will hop into regular beta without having access to Morrowind DCL? - expect near to 0 players in your regular beta server ZOSi.

The whole purpose of people being in beta is to see the new content - not the old one.

STEVIL · April 2017

I seem to recall a few threeads that ran their course back when this was news.

IIRC its not uncommon practice for expansions with such a degree of new content.

Also, any gains from that brief exposure to some elements - that wont last long.

All in all, seems like a not uncommon move and a no-brainer and not that big a deal to me...

but hey, black 'copters gotta fly, right?

Twilix01 · April 2017

You realize this exact kind of thing happened prior to the game's release with people in a closed beta right? And this is a much shorter time frame compared to launch. If the closed beta were to damage the game's competitiveness, it would have done so years ago on a much worse scale.

Robvenom · April 2017

It amazes me how many people cry about standard MMO practices in this game.

Didgerion · April 2017

Robvenom wrote: »

It amazes me how many people cry about standard MMO practices in this game.

The thing is that this game didn't start as a standard MMO, but it is getting closer to a standard MMO each release.

SanTii.92 · April 2017

JimT722 wrote: »

Anything released in Morrowind could be tweaked from beta to release. Also, everything they learn will likely be available on a website within a day of release. It will however reduce the bugs as some will be fixed by release. This isn't being discussed because every mmo I have ever played has done something similar and it really won't be an issue.

Jim, you really think we'll have access to all sets stats, boss mechanics, and grind spots from Zos' articles? Cause we won't have permision from player created content. And even then, you think that could eb remotely to potantially 2 months of betatesting?

Twilix01 wrote: »

You realize this exact kind of thing happened prior to the game's release with people in a closed beta right? And this is a much shorter time frame compared to launch. If the closed beta were to damage the game's competitiveness, it would have done so years ago on a much worse scale.

Eso's original launch had a virtually open beta, where everyone who asked for it could have access. I think we should have a similar beta here, give us at least 2 weeks of open beta and everything should be somewhat ok.

Jemcrystal · April 2017

I gave OP an insightful cause it is an interesting topic.

I would agree with zos on this one tho. It should keep it's doors closed to those who don't pay $. TESO pay model has been carefully stressed over and is in a state of perfection that does not need any imbalance. AND the devs don't need anything extra to do that takes up time.

On pay models - I hope the birdy thru the grapevine was correct that subscribers will be getting double bank - that is sweet (no I don't sub but I care about those who let me ride in the back of their wagon for free).

I also agree with Didgerion that it worries the beta testers will be few. More important is the accusations toward zos from past beta testers that they gave full reports that were ignored which led to later problems after full release. I will be happy if the beta testers take their job seriously again and do not get discouraged. There is no reward but we appreciate your work. This game is extensive and testing must take a chunk of time.

We're counting on you PTS'ers! Good luck all!

.

zuto40 · April 2017

i am willing to bet my account that even if this was an open beta, there'd still be 30 new minor bugs and at least 3 game breaking bugs

Cêltic421 · April 2017

I have to agree with the OP about the competitiveness of the trial. Alot of guilds out there want to be the first to complete the trial. The beta testers will have that headstart. I don't know why ZoS is allowing beta testers access to the new trial. Not everyone wants to go online to read strategies of new trials. Alot like to figure them out themselves. There are enough devs to do their own beta testing of the trial when everyone else test other content. Allowing access to trial makes be a bit salty. Non beta testers will be at a disadvantage.

GlassHalfFull · April 2017

A resounding Bah Humbug to you.

JamieAubrey · April 2017

The thing I want to know will the invites be complete;y "Random" or will the streamers get the first wave ?

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

Didgerion wrote: »

My problem with it is that there won't be enough players to test it and there will be lots of bugs or some serious ballancing issues that will make it to live.

I wonder how many players will hop into regular beta without having access to Morrowind DCL? - expect near to 0 players in your regular beta server ZOSi.

The whole purpose of people being in beta is to see the new content - not the old one.

This. From what I have heard, which may or may not be heresay.. tr beta testers are the ones that called for the balance changes, and will get plenty of practice running the new trial under said circumstances before morrowind release. The average raider won't get such an advantage. This to me is a big freaking deal. Makes me really salty with zos.

I am expecting to tableflip bigtime.

Korah_Eaglecry · April 2017

Robvenom wrote: »

It amazes me how many people cry about standard MMO practices in this game.

Its just something to keep them preoccupied. We dont have enough information on Morrowind for any serious drama or forum fires. So these drama queens have to find something to keep themselves busy.

BigBragg · April 2017

We have no idea how many participants will be selected, or how broad the spectrum of players will be. Yourban fear a just speculative conjecture at best.

We could also say that they will choose people from all types of players and enough of them to get a controlled and focused testing. Thus eliminating the heavy amounts of sifting through comments they must do wit has an open beta.

Terror · April 2017

No it won't, people who are good at the game will remain good at the game.
People who are not good at the game will still need to practice some more.
People who don't care either way; still won't care either way.

It's not as big a deal as you think, not to mention the pool size is hardly going to touch the player base size, so the chance of imbalance is minimal.

I understand this sort of thing is new to some of you coming from single player RPG's to MMO's but it's something you grow to realize has very little effect on the majority of players.

The top 1% may be the only players who experience anything to the effect of a different outcome due to prior experience.

Acrolas · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Hope this thread can spark some discussion about this issue

The only issue I see is that you're broadcasting to everyone that you're more concerned about subjective advantages than objective quality control. Like you're trying to disqualify yourself and then get *** off at ZOS because they didn't invite you to perform a service that you just admitted you're viewing more like a privileged demo.

Some things are just better left unwritten.

"Fair competitiveness" is testing to ensure that the content works accurately, consistently, and predictably prior to launch. So I don't care who the *** ZOS chooses so long as they do the job ZOS wants done. That's the attitude I want to see. Not, "Where's my glory?" Not, "I'm getting left out." But rather, "How can we make sure everybody gets to enjoy this big new addition as smoothly as possible on launch week?"

That's for both sides of the NDA wall. If something goes unnoticed in the quarterly update and winds up crashing game clients, you're not getting into Morrowind any sooner. Keep that in mind.

Cpt_Teemo · April 2017

JamieAubrey wrote: »

The thing I want to know will the invites be complete;y "Random" or will the streamers get the first wave ?

From what I learned about MMO's they always let streamers in beta's no matter what so they don't need any invite mostly, since they all just get in for advertisement purposes

Turelus · April 2017

ESO has competitiveness!

PvP FotM builds will be out in a month of launch, doesn't matter who tests, everyone will just use Sypher and Fengrush's latest builds because streamer awe.

PvE guilds will be grinding new sets for six months any way.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

As someone who's main reason to play is to find enjoyment on fair competitiveness.../...

A closed beta test will PERHAPS influence A LITTLE the competitiveness aspect of... the competitive content (that is 0.5% of the content ?) for a handful of top raiding groups (that is 0.01% of the playerbase ?). It's only relevant for world 1st trial clears. Anything else (leaderboards, battlegrounds, etc.) anyone can catch up later.

I'm sorry if you truly belong to the maybe 20 or 50 players who are concerned by world 1st trial clears. But I don't think the testing process should be tweaked to suit such a small group of people.

That being said, I also believe that ZOS knows who the top raiding groups are and will invite them all into the beta - because they're the only ones who can truly test that type of content.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

JamieAubrey wrote: »

The thing I want to know will the invites be complete;y "Random" or will the streamers get the first wave ?

It's not random. But ZOS didn't make the criteria public. All Gina said was that prior involvement on previous PTS cycles will be a key criteria, although not the only one.

Turelus · April 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JamieAubrey wrote: »

The thing I want to know will the invites be complete;y "Random" or will the streamers get the first wave ?

It's not random. But ZOS didn't make the criteria public. All Gina said was that prior involvement on previous PTS cycles will be a key criteria, although not the only one.

Has anyone tried standing outside the office with a sign saying "pick me!"?
I would try but that whole different country thing.

SanTii.92 · April 2017

Acrolas wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Hope this thread can spark some discussion about this issue

The only issue I see is that you're broadcasting to everyone that you're more concerned about subjective advantages than objective quality control. Like you're trying to disqualify yourself and then get *** off at ZOS because they didn't invite you to perform a service that you just admitted you're viewing more like a privileged demo.

Some things are just better left unwritten.

"Fair competitiveness" is testing to ensure that the content works accurately, consistently, and predictably prior to launch. So I don't care who the *** ZOS chooses so long as they do the job ZOS wants done. That's the attitude I want to see. Not, "Where's my glory?" Not, "I'm getting left out." But rather, "How can we make sure everybody gets to enjoy this big new addition as smoothly as possible on launch week?"

That's for both sides of the NDA wall. If something goes unnoticed in the quarterly update and winds up crashing game clients, you're not getting into Morrowind any sooner. Keep that in mind.

Yours is a respectable position, but i wonder in which ways a closed beta will ensure that we'll have a more polished, bugged free content over an open one? If any, i'd say the effect is gonna be the contrary of what you describe. A more robust player base testing a seemingly massive update will most likely end up with better results. Closed beta sounds to me more of a marketing move to keep the hype up than of actual balance consistancy and free of bugs and glitches.

Then i want to say that his has nothing to do with personal glory, but about the game remaining fun. And fun to me means fair. I don't know about you, but encountering people who have already figured the meta down, who have fought with and agaisnt wardens for so long, who have played countless of bgs matches and know exactly what they are doing isn't exactly that.

I also think that some of you might be overestimating the reaches of the nda agreements. I actually think we'll have a lot of leaks and rumours, and missinformation around the patch as we get closer to the launch but nothing is reaveled. Or do you honestly think people won't talk about this 'increadbly overpowered set' on discord, or how crazy that boss is? Really. I fail to see why we shoulnd't have an open beta weeks prior the launch.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

i wonder in which ways a closed beta will ensure that we'll have a more polished, bugged free content over an open one? If any, i'd say the effect is gonna be the contrary of what you describe. A more robust player base testing a seemingly massive update will most likely end up with better results.

First reason is probably that far more people would jump into PTS for Morrowind than for any other DLC content so far, and the PTS doesn't have the capacity for sustaining so many players.
Second reason (again, just my guess) is that they really want to use our feedback on that occasion, but they don't want that feedback to be drowned into the usual troll, non-quality "feedback" that we see very often on PTS-threads. We'll have a separate, hidden section of the forum and people will provide good feedback (like "Skill X seems unbalanced because reason Y and W") without the useless feedback (like "Skill X sux, fire Wrobel").
Third reason is communication strategy : closed betas and NDAs create hype.

(I say "we" because I assume I'll be invited because I participated in all PTS stuff since launch, but maybe I won't get invited, no big deal).

SanTii.92 · April 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

i wonder in which ways a closed beta will ensure that we'll have a more polished, bugged free content over an open one? If any, i'd say the effect is gonna be the contrary of what you describe. A more robust player base testing a seemingly massive update will most likely end up with better results.

First reason is probably that far more people would jump into PTS for Morrowind than for any other DLC content so far, and the PTS doesn't have the capacity for sustaining so many players.
Second reason (again, just my guess) is that they really want to use our feedback on that occasion, but they don't want that feedback to be drowned into the usual troll, non-quality "feedback" that we see very often on PTS-threads. We'll have a separate, hidden section of the forum and people will provide good feedback (like "Skill X seems unbalanced because reason Y and W") without the useless feedback (like "Skill X sux, fire Wrobel").
Third reason is communication strategy : closed betas and NDAs create hype.

(I say "we" because I assume I'll be invited because I participated in all PTS stuff since launch, but maybe I won't get invited, no big deal).

Without knowing exactly how many will be invited in proportion of the regular amount of testers, we can only speculate about this, because to your argument we can easily counter saying that if servers overload a queue could solve the problem, and forum trolls should just be adressed as usual, with stricter moderation, hardly probable that it wouldn't be worth the extra amount of feedback.

In any case, this is nothing but a discussion about a metodolgy, we could argue which one could be more effective without reaching a definitve conclusion. But what we can assure, is that the decision of not disclosing until the very launch isn't based in favored of the devolpment of better content but because of marketing/pr at the expense of fairness.

Kendaric · April 2017

Didgerion wrote: »

I wonder how many players will hop into regular beta without having access to Morrowind DCL? - expect near to 0 players in your regular beta server ZOSi.

The whole purpose of people being in beta is to see the new content - not the old one.

The point of people being in beta is to test things, it's not just a showcase of new content like previous PTS builds were.

I'd still expect a good number of players on the regular PTS, simply to check the balance changes that come with the base game.

Foxic · April 2017

All of the guilds that were represented in the playtest already have an advantage.

Also I'm sure every guild that is a contender for clearing the trial first will be invited

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Without knowing exactly how many will be invited in proportion of the regular amount of testers, we can only speculate about this, because to your argument we can easily counter saying that if servers overload a queue could solve the problem, and forum trolls should just be adressed as usual, with stricter moderation, hardly probable that it wouldn't be worth the extra amount of feedback.

In any case, this is nothing but a discussion about a metodolgy, we could argue which one could be more effective without reaching a definitve conclusion. But what we can assure, is that the decision of not disclosing until the very launch isn't based in favored of the devolpment of better content but because of marketing/pr at the expense of fairness.

The moderators' job is to evaluate / filter forum content based on the code of conduct. It's not their job to judge whether any given feedback is useful or not. They don't have the same point of view as a developer.
Also : a queuing system ? Do you think it's fair that qualified, genuine testers would have to wait in a queue while countless trolls will potentially just go there to spoil everyone else and find their own personal grind spots first ? Now THAT would be totally unfair and unconstructive.
A closed beta is a choice of quality vs. quantity - and I second that.
And I disagree with you. I think a closed beta is much better is terms of ensuring quality feedback, which in turn is in favor of development of better content. And as stated above, it's only unfair to maybe 0.01% of the playerbase - totally worth it, even if I feel for you if you do belong to those 0.01%.

But don't despair : invites haven't been sent out yet. Maybe you'll be invited.

LilySix · April 2017

They will "test" new trial mechas... Before anyone else. GREAT !

So we, PS4 guilds (and friends from XBOX), will be invited aswell ? Not sure...

Turelus · April 2017

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

All of the guilds that were represented in the playtest already have an advantage.

Also I'm sure every guild that is a contender for clearing the trial first will be invited

Remember that they also need 12 players for the trials testing, just because one member of a top guild gets an invite doesn't mean their team will.

I doubt they're going to clear the trial on PTS with random beta testers that may not have any experience in the testing. Also we don't know what characters/templates they get access to. They may be forced to only use new characters meaning the trial is off limits.

Lastly if I am not mistaken Finn has been sneaky and changed stuff in the past right before launch to mess with people, or ramped up the difficulty once testing has passed.

As I joke before ESO really has no competitive gameplay. Very few in the community bar maybe six or seven top guilds care about world first or world scores. Most of the "competition" is PvP which is still down to player skill more than anything else.

Lastly most of the testing I have ever known on PTS was to find what's bugged and can be abused until patched. Which skill doesn't work as intended, which sets proc too much etc.

Competitive PTS is about finding the newest "exploits" and abusing them. I am damn happy ZOS actually tried to get testers for this and not just people in it for themselves.
Also finally all those people who cried "we should get a reward for bug testing on PTS" have a reward, and if you cried for that and now find that you don't have an invite because you never actually tested and just wanted rewards, hah!

/endrant