Would you class guild leadership as experience for a job?

dotme · April 2017

Funny to read some of the reactions.

Hiring managers should note that, while they are evaluating and interviewing an applicant, the applicant is doing the exact same thing to them.

I think it's ballsy, but also a brilliant way for an applicant to "feel out" the culture of the organization they're interested in working for.

jakeedmundson · April 2017

brimstone74 wrote: »

It's not worth the risk. I would say this is getting better as Baby Boomers (no offense guys) and some of their biases are organically kinda retiring themselves out of the workforce. Gen X forward you'll see a lot less bias, but it's still there.

I once had a boomer see an mmo referenced in a private email on my personal cell to me from a friend...he called me out...he was in the process of pulling me to his team and promoting me....that email killed the whole thing.

To a lot of folks...gamer = lazy loser.

We know better as far as Guild Leaders and Competitive gaming...but the masses at large do not really buy into this.

The sad thing is if that email was regarding a baseball meet up after work...I likely would have gotten a high five.

I'm not a baby boomer...
I don't think gamer = lazy loser... i game and i get $417 done.

The point is that putting something like this on a resume plainly spells out something about that applicant... His/her priorities could be mixed up. That means it's a potential risk factor to me as an employer.

Family > Work/School > Personal time.

Putting this type of info on a resume tells me that the applicants personal time could EASILY interfere with work. (Late, Calling in, distracted, etc.)

For 99% of all hiring for businesses, the resume is the first impression. Be formal and direct... once you get an interview, then show your personality and make yourself memorable.

Danikat · April 2017

brimstone74 wrote: »

It's not worth the risk. I would say this is getting better as Baby Boomers (no offense guys) and some of their biases are organically kinda retiring themselves out of the workforce. Gen X forward you'll see a lot less bias, but it's still there.

I once had a boomer see an mmo referenced in a private email on my personal cell to me from a friend...he called me out...he was in the process of pulling me to his team and promoting me....that email killed the whole thing.

To a lot of folks...gamer = lazy loser.

We know better as far as Guild Leaders and Competitive gaming...but the masses at large do not really buy into this.

The sad thing is if that email was regarding a baseball meet up after work...I likely would have gotten a high five.

Isn't that technically discrimination? Sure 'gamer' isn't a typical issue for discrimination but I know one woman who was formally warned about referring to applicants under 30 as "kids", "young lads", "wee boys" and other things that implied they were children because it could be considered discrimination and if someone found out and then didn't get the job they could complain on the basis that she was making assumptions about their experience based on their age.

(Although it might also depend on what country you're in. I know UK employment law is very different to the US - for example the whole 'at will' employment thing is totally illegal here.)

But I think you're right about older co-workers. Funny enough one of my co-workers made some snarky comment about applicants with tattoos earlier today and how it makes them look like "god awful punk rockers". She seemed to forget that she was speaking to me and my manager and we both have tattoos which are visible depending on how long our sleeves are (today we both had them on show), but I gently reminded her that I'd just been chatting to the head of department about which Guns N' Roses shows we were each going to this summer. She quickly back-tracked and claimed that it's different if you can "pass for normal".

brimstone74 · April 2017

Danikat wrote: »

brimstone74 wrote: »

It's not worth the risk. I would say this is getting better as Baby Boomers (no offense guys) and some of their biases are organically kinda retiring themselves out of the workforce. Gen X forward you'll see a lot less bias, but it's still there.

I once had a boomer see an mmo referenced in a private email on my personal cell to me from a friend...he called me out...he was in the process of pulling me to his team and promoting me....that email killed the whole thing.

To a lot of folks...gamer = lazy loser.

We know better as far as Guild Leaders and Competitive gaming...but the masses at large do not really buy into this.

The sad thing is if that email was regarding a baseball meet up after work...I likely would have gotten a high five.

Isn't that technically discrimination? Sure 'gamer' isn't a typical issue for discrimination but I know one woman who was formally warned about referring to applicants under 30 as "kids", "young lads", "wee boys" and other things that implied they were children because it could be considered discrimination and if someone found out and then didn't get the job they could complain on the basis that she was making assumptions about their experience based on their age.

(Although it might also depend on what country you're in. I know UK employment law is very different to the US - for example the whole 'at will' employment thing is totally illegal here.)

But I think you're right about older co-workers. Funny enough one of my co-workers made some snarky comment about applicants with tattoos earlier today and how it makes them look like "god awful punk rockers". She seemed to forget that she was speaking to me and my manager and we both have tattoos which are visible depending on how long our sleeves are (today we both had them on show), but I gently reminded her that I'd just been chatting to the head of department about which Guns N' Roses shows we were each going to this summer. She quickly back-tracked and claimed that it's different if you can "pass for normal".

Yeah we all have our biases...we're human.

Kodrac · April 2017

Oh I'd love to see this interview.

"And what are your qualifications?"

"Well, ma'am, I've played Elder Scrolls Online for three years and was the leader of my raid guild. So, you know, I have a lot of management experience dealing with egos and payouts and whatnot."

"Get out."

medusasfolly · April 2017

I think this question also depends on where you are in your career. If you're senior, then never consider it. But if you're junior (as in just recently out of HS or college) I might consider putting it in the "hobbies" section. But it really depends on how you put it.

"Managed a group of 475 remote individuals in an online trading guild. This involved recruitment, staffing, conflict resolution, donation drives, and event management. Also created several processes and spreadsheets to automate donation tracking, auction execution and membership accounting, reducing the administrative time investment by 65%."

brimstone74 · April 2017

jakeedmundson wrote: »

brimstone74 wrote: »

It's not worth the risk. I would say this is getting better as Baby Boomers (no offense guys) and some of their biases are organically kinda retiring themselves out of the workforce. Gen X forward you'll see a lot less bias, but it's still there.

I once had a boomer see an mmo referenced in a private email on my personal cell to me from a friend...he called me out...he was in the process of pulling me to his team and promoting me....that email killed the whole thing.

To a lot of folks...gamer = lazy loser.

We know better as far as Guild Leaders and Competitive gaming...but the masses at large do not really buy into this.

The sad thing is if that email was regarding a baseball meet up after work...I likely would have gotten a high five.

I'm not a baby boomer...
I don't think gamer = lazy loser... i game and i get $417 done.

The point is that putting something like this on a resume plainly spells out something about that applicant... His/her priorities could be mixed up. That means it's a potential risk factor to me as an employer.

Family > Work/School > Personal time.

Putting this type of info on a resume tells me that the applicants personal time could EASILY interfere with work. (Late, Calling in, distracted, etc.)

For 99% of all hiring for businesses, the resume is the first impression. Be formal and direct... once you get an interview, then show your personality and make yourself memorable.

Right. It's not just one group the draws these conclusions. That was probably unfair of me. But the way you're drawing this conclusion here kind makes the point in general regardless of the source of it.

To your last point I totally agree with you. Keep the resume directly targeted at the role and audience. Gauge the room if you get invited to interview and go from there.

I have never once personally, found a reason to discuss my recreation in an interview. Whenever they ask warm up questions about recreation I omit gaming as a matter of course.

Bam_Bam · April 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

Oh I'd love to see this interview.

"And what are your qualifications?"

"Well, ma'am, I've played Elder Scrolls Online for three years and was the leader of my raid guild. So, you know, I have a lot of management experience dealing with egos and payouts and whatnot."

"Get out."

Exactly. Demonstrate real, tangible leadership that has impacted your REAL team's performance and improved the business then I'll consider you. But being in charge of a social guild of pretend elves who have never met on real life but are quite good at a game? Take a guess.

Slurg · April 2017

In the positions I've been involved in hiring for, putting that on a resume would make an applicant seem out of touch with our professional norms, but I would not rule them out if they were qualified in other ways. If they appeared to be giving it the same weight on their resume as a full time position, or as a replacement for all other experience requested in the job posting, I would pass, though.

If framed properly, I can see a case to be made for using relevant guild leadership examples to answer one of those interview questions that start with "tell me about a time that you...", etc.

Alchemical · April 2017

Rickter wrote: »

My Ops Manager told me that GM was worth putting on a resume. and this is a company that is worth 48 billion USD.

I truly believe that the work involved in running a medium to large guild does in fact deserve some mention in an interview. case in point:

This image has the right idea. Besides, putting 'guild leader' or 'dungeon master' is not necessarily good experience unless you've actually learned something from it. If you have the skills of a good leader, list those, no need to go into detail about how or where you developed them.

Sallington · April 2017

Alchemical wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

My Ops Manager told me that GM was worth putting on a resume. and this is a company that is worth 48 billion USD.

I truly believe that the work involved in running a medium to large guild does in fact deserve some mention in an interview. case in point:

This image has the right idea. Besides, putting 'guild leader' or 'dungeon master' is not necessarily good experience unless you've actually learned something from it. If you have the skills of a good leader, list those, no need to go into detail about how or where you developed them.

And cross your fingers hoping they don't ask where you learned those skills, or to talk about an example of when you used those skills...

"Well we were in progression run of vMoL in Elder Scrolls Online"

"NEXT!"

idk · April 2017

Guild leaderships would probably not be considered experience for most jobs unless some notable accomplishment were made and of course some niche jobs.

The issue is what do most guild leaders need to do? I am a guild leader. About 100 members with maybe 10 that log in during a busy week. I don't even know who most of them are.

That's what I'd doubt guys of leadership in ESO would be looked at favorably I'm not considering my HR experience with one of the largest non-governmental employers in the world where I dealt with the resumes of college graduates and their screening process.

GwJSVDShark · April 2017

dotme wrote: »

Hiring managers should note that, while they are evaluating and interviewing an applicant, the applicant is doing the exact same thing to them.

I think it's ballsy, but also a brilliant way for an applicant to "feel out" the culture of the organization they're interested in working for.

I read this and laugh.

Ok, so you can evaluate and 'feel out' the 'culture' and so on, but kind reminder, you're the one asking me for a job. So evaluate all you want and what have you, if you walked in my door was to get a job, not to tell me how we do not conform to your points of view. Translation: thank you for your time, we're still in the interviewing process, we'll be in touch. NEXT

Alchemical · April 2017

Sallington wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

My Ops Manager told me that GM was worth putting on a resume. and this is a company that is worth 48 billion USD.

I truly believe that the work involved in running a medium to large guild does in fact deserve some mention in an interview. case in point:

This image has the right idea. Besides, putting 'guild leader' or 'dungeon master' is not necessarily good experience unless you've actually learned something from it. If you have the skills of a good leader, list those, no need to go into detail about how or where you developed them.

And cross your fingers hoping they don't ask where you learned those skills, or to talk about an example of when you used those skills...

"Well we were in progression run of vMoL in Elder Scrolls Online"

"NEXT!"

First of all a resume and an interview are very different. Resumes are sales pitches designed to make yourself look better, manipulating your wording to make you seem more impressive is a given.

When it comes to an interview you get creative. You don't need to go full nerd and unload a bunch of terms that won't mean anything to your average grandpa doing the hiring. As long as you're articulate and can illustrate clear examples of your ability to lead you can leave the context vague. Focus on what you can do and what you've learned, not the vehicle. If you do let yourself get railroaded by an interviewer you're probably not getting the job anyway.

MyKillv2.0 · April 2017

brimstone74 wrote: »

It's not worth the risk. I would say this is getting better as Baby Boomers (no offense guys) and some of their biases are organically kinda retiring themselves out of the workforce. Gen X forward you'll see a lot less bias, but it's still there.

I once had a boomer see an mmo referenced in a private email on my personal cell to me from a friend...he called me out...he was in the process of pulling me to his team and promoting me....that email killed the whole thing.

To a lot of folks...gamer = lazy loser.

We know better as far as Guild Leaders and Competitive gaming...but the masses at large do not really buy into this.

The sad thing is if that email was regarding a baseball meet up after work...I likely would have gotten a high five.

Sounds like they did you a favor.

I agree, gaming is far more acceptable with modern generations but someone who would not promote you due a personal hobby is someone you wouldn't want to work for/with.

dday3six · April 2017

I think it's going to depend on what the responsibilities this person had as a guild leader, but I could see that being considered leadership experience in the sense that this person could have directed and collaborated with others while working toward a common goal. I'd make sure to list this a volunteer position though, but I don't see how it would be all that dissimilar to being captain of a sports team. Which I have also seen people claim as leadership experience.

To elaborate more I think it would also depend on the person's ability to convey just what they did as a guild leader as well.

brimstone74 · April 2017

GwJSVDShark wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

Hiring managers should note that, while they are evaluating and interviewing an applicant, the applicant is doing the exact same thing to them.

I think it's ballsy, but also a brilliant way for an applicant to "feel out" the culture of the organization they're interested in working for.

I read this and laugh.

Ok, so you can evaluate and 'feel out' the 'culture' and so on, but kind reminder, you're the one asking me for a job. So evaluate all you want and what have you, if you walked in my door was to get a job, not to tell me how we do not conform to your points of view. Translation: thank you for your time, we're still in the interviewing process, we'll be in touch. NEXT

Well this all depends on how in demand and rare your skill set is. I don't think the the poster that was quoted was advocating an attempt to challenge culture in an interview. I can tell you I have turned offers down where I've had a bad vibe. I am definitely evaluating the people interviewing me. I ask targeted questions to get a feel for their culture. It is definitely a 2 way street. I've been on both sides of the table and their are some definite failure points for interviewers as well.

GwJSVDShark · April 2017

Ok i am a manager, i run a company and I interview prospects.

Yes I am tainted by the fact that I know what goes into an mmo and managing huge egos while on a video game.

Having said that, I believe it is all how you communicate. No, you would not put 'I got all my skills from playing video games' as HR would laugh at me for considering your resume.

But remember, people do put Scouts, volunteer work, religious organizations and other such hobbies in their resume and proof that they can a) get along, and b) can organize people. I once had some one tell me in 5000 words or more how her organizing Sunday church should qualify her as project manager, and she was partly right.

Thus hobbies where you have to interact with people and organize them should be allowable, whether is church or an mmo, both include the same people skills. So make sure you communicate it right, like 'good at organizing and motivating groups' or 'good at organization and product execution', because that is what the skill boils down to. If they ask you to explain, you say that you and your club meet nightly and you organize them and motivate them. It would sounds the same to me if you talk about your mmo guild, or your prayer group, and I might just consider you because of this over some one who looks perfect but cannot get along with others.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

I'd put ESO as a reference if I applied as inventory management specialist.

dotme · April 2017

GwJSVDShark wrote: »

..you're the one asking me for a job...

...and you're the one asking for applicants. By eliminating someone based on their interests, you could well be missing an opportunity to bring someone creative onto your team.

I agree, it depends on your mindset. If it's closed, then those outside the norm aren't a good fit for the organization, and by the same token the organization isn't a good place for them to work.

brimstone74 · April 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I'd put ESO as a reference if I applied as inventory management specialist.

lol.....wins thread...

Kaymorolis · April 2017

The trick is to avoid listing yourself as an ESO GM, but do expound on the qualities that you learned from being an ESO GM.

Things like conflict resolution, organization skills, mentoring people, etc.

It's all in how you spin-doctor it.

Zerok · April 2017

No, companies will want to know your actual work experience, not some video game experience.

Although, being a good guildmaster does require good leadership & interpersonal skills. You can talk about those in your resume without necessarily saying that you used them in a video game.

In any case, if you have those skills, your previous employers will probably be able to vouch for them without even knowing anything about said video game

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

...puts Khajiit under Race for Petco summer job application ...

Adrastus · April 2017

nooooooo never ever hahhaha pls dont
but it would still be pretty funny

Rainwhisper · April 2017

Danikat wrote: »

For some people that might not be a problem, but I can imagine it catching people out - especially coming from me when I'm dressing up all professional like someone who actually belongs on the interviewer side of the table.

I agree. I would also expect someone to have articulated some of this in their description of what they accomplished as a GM.

"Project Manager" is meaningless. "Project Manager: directly supervised a team of six supervisors, and led a team of 50 workers, on a project with a $ 15,000,000 budget, which was completed on time and without cost overrun." is meaningful

I feel the same way about "Guild Master."

MissBizz · April 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I'd put ESO as a reference if I applied as inventory management specialist.

Inventory management is a huge part of my job...

Anyways, as a guild leader (and definitely not a small one like @Giles.floydub17_ESO mentioned) and I'd say it's definitely taught me things.

Although like others have said, is it applicable? Yes. Would I put it like that on a resume? Not a chance in... *ehem*

If you spin-doctor it (honestly) to more-so list the skills you have gained from it, then absolutely. Don't put the words clan or guild there though.

Personally, as a manager who does interview for my department, I wouldn't care if it's on someone's resume. I would also not be surprised if it was on the resume of someone my age or younger.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

I'd just be careful in mentioning which guild you lead . I saw one in Cyrodiil called I like BBW's that claimed one of the castles . That one could land you in HR room first day .

Muramasa89 · April 2017

I suppose but I don't equate leading people on a game to leading people in a job in the exact same regard. There's definitely some cross-over, however I feel most, how shall I say it, don't have the cajones to do the deed face-to-face and chicken out. I'd probably just consider it training (like VR for soldiers over real combat). Plus, how do you know you're doing a good job, really? I find most people won't speak out in little groups but you're bound to have someone above you in a job that isn't afraid to say you suck.

Lettigall · April 2017

I think most interviewers just assume that you have computer addiction and that it can interfere with your work quality. And how can you prove that you where even good GL? Do you think employer will give a F that your guild holds record for clearing X dungeon in X time or farmed millions of AP?