Stamina DPS in PVE fixed for morrowind?

Lynx7386 · April 2017

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Or just buff heavy armor so that way any magic or stam can use it for DPS. Game lacks variety. We always see the same thing everyone else is running. Skills, sets, and weapons.

You realize that if heavy were buffed so it could be used for dps, that's all anyone would ever use? That's the exact opposite of variety

Kammakazi · April 2017

Homestead right now favors Magicka because of the AoE DoTs they bring (WoE/Elemental Rage/Etc)

What does Stamina have?

... Endless Hail (tiny radius)

OrphanHelgen · April 2017

Kammakazi wrote: »

Homestead right now favors Magicka because of the AoE DoTs they bring (WoE/Elemental Rage/Etc)

What does Stamina have?

... Endless Hail (tiny radius)

Have to add, maelstrom bow lose the soul gem charges every 10 mins.

Izaki · April 2017

Sinolai wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I totally agree with you. Stamina is weaker - and it simply make no seance. If you have for example a NB that has no dmg shield and you are forced to 1 - 2 shot you target in order to survive / heal - then what is the point of this class if mag build (especially mag sorcerers) do more dmg from a distance (and with a dmg shield) ?! This is not only PvE issue. The real problems start in PvP. Stamina builds used to be good - and this is probably the reason why they are not anymore - in PvP people complained about it, so it was nerfed.

PvP in ungodly unbalanced - we know that. 90% of cyrodiil PvP pollution are mag sorcerers for a reason (btw. what kind of class balance it is ?! ). Stamina in pvp is always weaker (even if you go for NB/race combo).

Now...lets take a look at mobas games (basically it is cyro PvP but with a much smaller scale - instead of 50 vs 50 you have 5 vs 5 with a preset of balanced skills for certain character). What is the biggest difference aside from that ?

Only stamina can crit. Magicka is mostly AOE with higher dmg, but with 0% crit chance. Only stamina (most often single - target) can crit. This is the reason why mobas are "better" balanced.

If I have a single target skill that deals the same dmg as an AOE dmg (yes everybody in certain area is getting hit for the same dmg as if 10 different people attacked them separately). What is the point of high singe target dmg when you have AOE that deal more dmg I ask ? It just make no seance...

You're crazy if you consider magicka sorc is the best class in PvP. The best ones are still Stam DK, Sorc and Templar for most stuff. Mag Sorc is way harder to play and you'll never get kills as easily. There's a reason why 90% of the sorcs you see are complete trash.

SPAM MAGE'S WRATH ON EVERYTHING!! STEAL ALL THE KILLS!! And if things look ugly for you, STREAK BACK TO THE BACK LINE AND RUN LIKE A STORM!!
But yeah, they are not that strong in 1 vs 1 Claiming you never get kills as MagSorc however is ***. They also have the best mobility of all classes.

I never said I don't get kills on my mag sorc cause I do the exact opposite of that lol I'm saying that on certain other classes its much easier to get kills while being beaten on by a few other players.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2017

Kammakazi wrote: »

Homestead right now favors Magicka because of the AoE DoTs they bring (WoE/Elemental Rage/Etc)

What does Stamina have?

... Endless Hail (tiny radius)

Not to mention that Endless Hail and Arrow Barrage require a BiS weapon to even come close to the power of Blockade of Elements (which it still doesn't), while the counterpart that synergizes with Blockade FURTHER amplifies the user's DPS potential.

Wifeaggro13 · April 2017

Shadzilla wrote: »

Everyone that does any sort of competitive PVE is well aware stamina dps have been rare since the 1 Tamriel patch late last year. From trials anyway. Stam sorc still had vDSA and vMA until homestead. Now we are back to Magicka ruling all. The only reason stamina were used in thieves guild and dark brotherhood last year, was the single target damage. This is now gone, considering mag sorc/dk currently do more SINGLE TARGET damage than all stam toons. Along with having access to shields that can double their health at the simple click of a button. Stam toons also pull around 70% of the aoe dmg that mag pulls in most trash packs, rip destro ult. The fact that stam dps do less dmg in single target and aoe, but are forced to be melee with no viable shield is insane... Mag do more dmg single target, from ranged... with shields? LOL. Another massive issue is if you do not have bis vma weapons as a stam dps don't even try to compete... The reliability on those weapons to do anything close to the dmg mag does is crazy. Meanwhile, you can wear purple poorly traited bsw/llambis with 3 infal/moon + crafted staves and still outperform bis all gold gear stam in every way possible.

Recap:

Thieves guild and dark brotherhood : Stam dps due to MASSIVE single target advantage

1 Tamriel : All trials = Mag dps. Stam single target not nearly as OP as it was. The survivability of shields (15-19k fake health) and massive aoe dmg compared to stam is undeniable.
vDSA + vMA = Stam sorcs (hurricane + crit surge ftw)

Homestead: Anything pve related = Mag dps. Now have more single target than stam, while at range and having shields. Aoe also still massive dmg compared to stam.

LIGHT ARMOR = 2200 spell crit and 4900 spell penetration. Wearing only 5 pieces of light, gaining the undaunted bonuses from having 1 medium 1 heavy.

MEDIUM ARMOR = 2300 weapon crit and 12% weapon damage. Wearing 7 medium pieces, gaining no undaunted bonus.

Keep in mind penetration is by far the BIGGEST META thing in end game pve. 12% weapon damage does nothing compared to shredding armor resistances by 4900.

So stamina has a tiny crit advantage, with no undaunted bonuses resulting in much lower stat pools. No penetration bonus, vs a massive 4900 pen bonus light is getting... When pen is like the most important thing in end game pve content.

Now of course there are going to be people posting stuff like hey wait wait! There was a stam sorc in this #2 world score AA run check it out bla bla bla. Thats great. The sheer fact is stamina dps is gone. 95% of high score competitive pve runs have mag only dps. The 2 MASSIVE reasons are very clear, shields and aoe dmg. Mag can survive so much more that stam toons can from shields, which is massive for score runs. Vitality bonuses are a must. The fact that stam toons can only pull about 70% of the damage mag toons can in aoe trash packs is ridiculous. Single target damage is actually pretty close. No insanely large gap like the aoe advantage mag has. In all honesty though, 90% of all pve content is aoe in this game. I am well aware that balancing is very hard due to pvp... I HAVE SOLUTIONS.

How to fix?

1. Give stam toons a viable shield for pve. Whats the biggest issue, pvp right? AIGHT... buff bone shield, but have 1 morph only working in pve environments.
2. Stam needs to be at least around the same ballpark for aoe dmg as mag is. Right now stam isn't even in the same city as mag. Endless hail radius/dmg increased? Blade cloak actually doing damage, instead of a tiny tick every 3 seconds? Change the 2nd morph of lacerate that literally .01% of the population uses... Thrive in chaos? That morph is so unused... Could easily change it to an ability closer to destro ult? Massive aoe dmg.
3. Single target? It's pretty close tbh, undoing the trap nerf and possibly buffing rending slashes or poison injection a bit wouldn't hurt.
4. Change the medium armor passive agility to 4900 penetration, instead of 12% weapon damage.

I have spoken with a handful of the testers that went out to zos a month or so ago. Most of the top tier pve guys did in fact let zos know about how rare/extinct stamina dps are for pve content. Zos knows, they have heard. Whether they listen, that is another story. Inviting a bunch of top tier players from all over tamriel to help with testing was one of the best things Zos could do. I realllllllly hope they listen to those people with massive amounts of experience, and have #1 leaderboard scores every patch. Morrowind is a massive launch for acquiring new people to the game. We should really consider letting them choose between stamina and magicka. All the community asks for is balance, neither one should have the massive advantages/disadvantages that we have seen the last few years. Its time to stop putting more tiaras and eyelashes in the crown store for a bit, and balance this games pve content!

To fix these issues you need to fire some devs and rehire the ones that know how to make an MMO.

idk · April 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

Stam DK definitely has one of the highest parses right now. Maybe Pet sorc is about the same. Issue is they can't survive and are melee.

A skilled stam dps can survive. Avoiding damage and the use of blade cloak and vigor to a long way.

Danksta · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

Stam DK definitely has one of the highest parses right now. Maybe Pet sorc is about the same. Issue is they can't survive and are melee.

A skilled stam dps can survive. Avoiding damage and the use of blade cloak and vigor to a long way.

But the point is it's harder to survive. The combination of blade cloak and vigor are still not going to make you more survivable then a magicka character with Harness/Hardened, plus you're using up 2 skill slots on survivability compared to just one, all so you can do less damage.

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

Danksta wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

Stam DK definitely has one of the highest parses right now. Maybe Pet sorc is about the same. Issue is they can't survive and are melee.

A skilled stam dps can survive. Avoiding damage and the use of blade cloak and vigor to a long way.

But the point is it's harder to survive. The combination of blade cloak and vigor are still not going to make you more survivable then a magicka character with Harness/Hardened, plus you're using up 2 skill slots on survivability compared to just one, all so you can do less damage.

Having done vhm AA on a few toons survivability on stam is not hard. There are more mag toons with 20k+ dps than stam toons, but there are plenty of stam toons pulling 35-40k dps even with utility skills slotted. Arguemnts can really go back and forth. Many running trials only pull 25k on their mag toons. You can make arguments about player skill vs class.

Bottom line is, everything OP said is true. One of the biggest buffs magica gets in trials is group synergy. They're easy to keep topped off with resources, can do range dps so no spreading of aids, dots, aoes, etc. Then you can buff with magdk, for even more dps (WHY!??).

You can rank good on a team with good stam toons but it's harder, they're more mobile, and have less group synergy. ..just another one of my pet peeves regarding this issue..

Mordors · April 2017

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

OrphanHelgen · April 2017

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

I haven't tried stamblade yet actually. How is the aoe skill they have? The one giving major brutality, the magicka morph heals, don't remember name.

Mordors · April 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

I haven't tried stamblade yet actually. How is the aoe skill they have? The one giving major brutality, the magicka morph heals, don't remember name.

the aoe skill that worth something is volley and steel tornado the rest is garbage(maybe flawless DB but thats nerfed too) tbh the problem is if you dont have VMA sharp bow volley is garbage too so

balance is on the ground...

there is noting that gives major brutality only soul harvest gives u %20 dmg done for 6 or 8 seconds i dont remember.

for me Stamblade is the one that is not worth playin at least in stam Sorc you will still have surge and stuff but NB you got noting(we got Siphoning Attacks YEY!!!!)

OrphanHelgen · April 2017

Mordors wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

I haven't tried stamblade yet actually. How is the aoe skill they have? The one giving major brutality, the magicka morph heals, don't remember name.

the aoe skill that worth something is volley and steel tornado the rest is garbage(maybe flawless DB but thats nerfed too) tbh the problem is if you dont have VMA sharp bow volley is garbage too so balance is on the ground...

there is noting that gives major brutality only soul harvest gives u %20 dmg done for 6 or 8 seconds i dont remember.

for me Stamblade is the one that is not worth playin at least in stam Sorc you will still have surge and stuff but NB you got noting(we got Siphoning Attacks YEY!!!!)

Power extraction - Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing [x] Disease Damage to all nearby enemies.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality, increasing Weapon Damage by 20% of 20 seconds.

Mordors · April 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Mordors wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

I haven't tried stamblade yet actually. How is the aoe skill they have? The one giving major brutality, the magicka morph heals, don't remember name.

the aoe skill that worth something is volley and steel tornado the rest is garbage(maybe flawless DB but thats nerfed too) tbh the problem is if you dont have VMA sharp bow volley is garbage too so balance is on the ground...

there is noting that gives major brutality only soul harvest gives u %20 dmg done for 6 or 8 seconds i dont remember.

for me Stamblade is the one that is not worth playin at least in stam Sorc you will still have surge and stuff but NB you got noting(we got Siphoning Attacks YEY!!!!)

Power extraction - Siphon the vigor from your enemies’ blood, dealing [x] Disease Damage to all nearby enemies.
If an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brutality, increasing Weapon Damage by 20% of 20 seconds.

cant use that in Trials ^^

Asardes · April 2017

25-30K is marginal for veteran trials. Not to mention that I've seen stamina DDs pushing daisies far more often than magicka ones so that DPS is in fact lower. I'd rather run a trial with 9 magicka DDs, preferably >5 sorcs and have a smooth run with high score.

masterbroodub17_ESO · April 2017

You want to address the REAL issue?

Kill off the damage based on resources. Preferably yesterday, with a nuke.

Remove stamina usage from skills and reduce the default stamina pool to reflect the change so that you don't end up with everyone able to perma-block.

Everything else uses magicka. After all, none of these skills are without some sort of "magical" aspect.

Problem solved! Seriously, there might be a little more tweaking necessary but that would improve the game so damn much.

Espica · April 2017

IMO a buff to Bone Shield would be a huge first step. Having a reliable shield would improve stamina survival a lot.

Then maybe switch the medium armor weapon damage % passive to physical penetration.

I used to think how was it possible that magicka does more damage when stamina has a lot of dots and even some skills have 'finisher' passives.
Maybe the problem is Rapid Strikes low damage, the main stamina spammable. Its damage could be buffed, and make the Slaughter passive kick in at 30 or 35%.

Does Ruffian apply on Off Balance enemies? It doesn't say so in the description. Maybe make it work on off balance enemies, or on Bleeding/Poisoned enemies.

Shadzilla · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

Stam DK definitely has one of the highest parses right now. Maybe Pet sorc is about the same. Issue is they can't survive and are melee.

A skilled stam dps can survive. Avoiding damage and the use of blade cloak and vigor to a long way.

A skilled stam dps can survive. I can agree with that. The obvious issue is its much harder. Plus the fact that mag destroy stam dps in AOE damage (which is 90% of this game) is disgusting. They also top stam dps in single target fights (not by much) from range, with shields that can give them 15-19k fake health at the click of a button. The issue is not that it is impossible for stamina not to complete something PVE and survive. The issue is that mag do it so much easier, with a fack ton more dmg in aoe situations. There is literally no reason to bring a stam dps along, its just a stupid move on the team. Those facts surely you can agree with. That should be changed.

AhPook_Is_Here · April 2017

I always see these diatribes, and while you are right, its a pointless argument because if STA becomes 1/10 of a percent better than MAG, everyone will be STA and some dude will be making your post again after running a find/replace script though your essay and plugging in MAG for STA.

In the end why does it even matter? Do you like the animations more? The look of the armor or weapons? Is it easier to swap between PVE and PVP gameplay with STA builds? What is your motivation other than the color of the resource bar?

masterbroodub17_ESO · April 2017

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I always see these diatribes, and while you are right, its a pointless argument because if STA becomes 1/10 of a percent better than MAG, everyone will be STA and some dude will be making your post again after running a find/replace script though your essay and plugging in MAG for STA.

In the end why does it even matter? Do you like the animations more? The look of the armor or weapons? Is it easier to swap between PVE and PVP gameplay with STA builds? What is your motivation other than the color of the resource bar?

Except it's not a 1/10th of a percent advantage, it's massive.

It is the equivalent in other MMOs of there being 2 DPS classes but one literally not being allowed to raid.

This isn't just salt, it's a massive balance failure on ZoS's part.

I've already made a suggestion which I think (nobody responding yet) would be perfect.

Shadzilla · April 2017

Mordors wrote: »

After playing 3 years of Stam NB i was hoping for a fix to thix problem but about a week ago i was like

Leveling Mag Sorc right now.

Awesome response/pic. I have mained a stamblade since beta, regardless of how horrible the dps is I can never bench him. I just get driven to try and make posts like this, and get things changed. From what I have seen in the past, the only things that get changed are from literal forum QQing. Hopefully they listen to the very knowledgeable players that went out for testing. @Gilliamtherogue @Paulington considering you guys lead 2 of the most successful PVE guilds, did ZOS mention if they were going to look at this massive issue? I'm aware ZOS was informed by the players when you guys went out there, but I have not heard if they are actually planning on doing something. Hopefully that dirty little NDA isn't preventing responses, its been awhile.

Shadzilla · April 2017

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I always see these diatribes, and while you are right, its a pointless argument because if STA becomes 1/10 of a percent better than MAG, everyone will be STA and some dude will be making your post again after running a find/replace script though your essay and plugging in MAG for STA.

In the end why does it even matter? Do you like the animations more? The look of the armor or weapons? Is it easier to swap between PVE and PVP gameplay with STA builds? What is your motivation other than the color of the resource bar?

This is far from pointless. The differences between survivability and AOE damage are so massive, its ridiculous... This game should not eliminate 50% of the dps options due to horrible balancing. Which is literally the state it is at right now, if you are doing competitive end game PVE. I'm not saying that balance will ever find an exact 50-50 state, but it cannot continue to have drastic differences like this. I have been a dagger wielding rogue with a bow in pretty much every RPG my entire life. I'm sure I am not the only one either. If I don't get to do as much damage as the staff wielding guys, thats fine. All we are asking is to be "closer" to the damage magicka is doing, with some better survivability.

Pallio · April 2017

Makes sence, since currently Morrow is only appealing if you want to play a caster with different skills/pets than a msorc. Stam class with a pet would be brand new, so let's hope they atleast try to make stam viable again.

acw37162 · April 2017

Shadzilla wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

While I agree that stam is not like seen anywhere in end game trials, I think stam DK still pulls higher single target DPS, but they have survivability issues.

Lol I'm not sure who you raid with, or what your parses are. I can assure you, that stam dk gets vastly outperformed by mag sorc/dk in SINGLE TARGET fully buffed trial bosses.

I can promise you in an optimal setup group an optimal mag DK out parses a stam DK everyday of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

gediv2 · April 2017

Stam Nightblade:

-buff medium armor passives

-more powerful ranged (looking at you Bow) Or a shuriken/dagger throw ranged dps.

-more generous resource pool to stay in the fight longer without juggling skills so damned much

-stealth should do more in pve (what exactly, I don't know)

-I'd forgo adding a shield if the above were implemented properly as they should be a mobile melee/ranged dps class, not a turtle

FlyLionel · April 2017

Buffs to bone shield? What are people talking about, magic should always rule in favor of survivability all while stamina should produce the most raw damage single target/aoe...come on now.

Edziu · April 2017

FlyLionel wrote: »

Buffs to bone shield? What are people talking about, magic should always rule in favor of survivability all while stamina should produce the most raw damage single target/aoe...come on now.

while now stamina lack in survivability in pve, have just similiar single target dps as magica and lower with worse classes and stam aoe/cleave dps is a *** joke in compare to magica which have everything much better

FlyLionel · April 2017

Edziu wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Buffs to bone shield? What are people talking about, magic should always rule in favor of survivability all while stamina should produce the most raw damage single target/aoe...come on now.

while now stamina lack in survivability in pve, have just similiar single target dps as magica and lower with worse classes and stam aoe/cleave dps is a *** joke in compare to magica which have everything much better

Yes, but like I said. Stam should have thee best single target dps, no 'similar' because our survivability and sustain is not 'similar'. Yes our aoe dps is a joke lol...endless hail during a mob fight, yes dude you are contributing..A+...why is cleave still in this game anyways..I do not do this often but #BuffStaminaInMorrowind now.

Edziu · April 2017

FlyLionel wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Buffs to bone shield? What are people talking about, magic should always rule in favor of survivability all while stamina should produce the most raw damage single target/aoe...come on now.

while now stamina lack in survivability in pve, have just similiar single target dps as magica and lower with worse classes and stam aoe/cleave dps is a *** joke in compare to magica which have everything much better

Yes, but like I said. Stam should have thee best single target dps, no 'similar' because our survivability and sustain is not 'similar'. Yes our aoe dps is a joke lol...endless hail during a mob fight, yes dude you are contributing..A+...why is cleave still in this game anyways..I do not do this often but #BuffStaminaInMorrowind now.

yeah, atlest to have single target dps better than mag will be enough and this is easy to see how it was aron DB, TG patch where stamina was doing better single target dps and was taken on trials without problem but when ZO$ balanced single target dps mag and stam to be similiar then we can see where is no space for stam dps

Publius_Scipio · April 2017

imnotanother wrote: »

Good post.

I mainly play a Stamina Nightblade. Once upon a time, he was a trial beast...now he hits like a wet noodle.

I've been stam nb since day one. Never even attempted a trial as I know it would have been a disaster. In my opinion stam NBs were only worth it when running the meta or close to it. If you aren't, the other classes (especially magicka now) are much more compelling options for PvE and PvP.